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Dungeoneer: Tomb of the Lich Lord» Forums » General

Subject: Seriously, too complex! rss

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Brohan Coldale
Japan
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OK, I know some people here really like this, but I suppose I'm posting this in case I'm maybe making too much of a meal out of this game.

Before I had people come over to try this, I wanted to lay it all out on my dining table and go through a few turns just on my own as all four players, to try and get a handle on the rules. I've made playmats and got all of the tokens (seriously, as a card game it's a bit of a joke - you seem to need quite a few other props, tokens, playmats etc. to really get anywhere with it).

So this is the second time I've tried this, and really, it just seems far too complex. Not too complex to understand per se; I know if I spent an hour or two with it I could probably suss it out - the problem is that, due to its card-based nature, I was expecting an RPG-lite - a way of doing a dungeon crawl in a relatively simple way with no real need for setup time.

What I feel I have is getting towards a full RPG in terms of the idiosyncracies of the rules (with seemingly loads of abstract symbols and quantities to deal with) with the actual role playing surgically removed; so if anything the abstraction makes things more complicated!

For example, being able to hold off movment between turns so you can move off-turn, outside of your player phase? The manual using the word "discard" but not actually saying what happens to discarded cards? The manual itself seems quite poorly written; would it have killed them to include a page with the flow of a "sample game" to read through?

However, the main problem I have with it is that unlike something like D&D, I'm concerned if I got people over to play it, even if I fully understood it, it'd take the duration of the first game just to explain the rules - before it even starts to get fun (whereas in many RPGs, I've found that discovering the rules can be part of the fun if done correctly).

ARGH! Rant over.

Sorry to those of you who really like this; I can see there's a lot of depth there and probably a lot to play. However, I'm just starting to think it isn't for me. Hopefully someone can come on and tell me that despite seeming this way, once you sit down with 4 people it'll start to "flow" pretty quickly and it turns out pretty well.
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Andrey
Russia
St. Petersburg
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The game is actually very simple, the rules are just badly written.
If you happen to have rules questions, ask away in rules section
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Brohan Coldale
Japan
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As crazy as it sounds, I'm actually starting to come around to it.

The reason is that my girlfriend and I sat down with the demo game I was working on, removed the other two "players", and basically flogged ourselves through until we completed one quest. We've started to get a handle on the flow of the game, though we're not using the "hold a movement to attack a monster" rule yet, as that's a bit contraflow to the rest of the game, so seemed a bit awkward to introduce right away.

It DEFINITELY is simpler than the rules make it appear. It really needs a "follow this sample game" chapter in the rules.
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Tim M-L
United States
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I think you're definitely making it more complicated than it is if you think you need a play mat.

I'm not sure what's so complicated about saving an action. There is only one time the action can be used. You can just ignore that option if you want, it is very rarely an effective use of your move.

There is a more detailed rewrite of the rules in the files section that might help too. I don't think it has a sample play, I've never found those useful.
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Oliver Seidel
Germany
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Just tip your character when using a move off turn. Untip him at the start of your turn.
 
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Stefano Crespi
Italy
Bologna
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That was the great complain of my group: "TOO COMPLEX!"

At first glance it could actually seem complex, but I think this game suffer the fact it is classified as a card game, that is not.
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