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Subject: I hate Power Grid. Will I like Indonesia? rss

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Agent J
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Walt Mulder wrote:
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I absolutely loathe Power Grid, and find Indonesia quite enjoyable.


I'm the exact opposite, despising Indonesia and welcoming Power Grid, so there's hope that you might like Indonesia.


There are things about Power Grid I like. I like the market (so I play Wealth of Nations). I like auctions (Container, Indonesia, Chicago Express). I like making money. I just don't like the way Power Grid puts it together.
 
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Martins Livens
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Companies in Indonesia can have several parts, but every part can be considered as one piece that produces certain amount of goods and connect to certain sea regions. You don't need account every single production chit separate.

So you have company with 3 distinct parts. It would be only logical if first sold largest part, then moved to second largest and finally last one. Noting in mind if you some goods are left unsold.

With large companies and limited demand or bootlenecks, It would help at start to count up demand or identify bottlenecks.

Back to explanation: if you sell whimsy 2 goods from one part, 1 good from another, 2 goods from first again, 3 goods from yet another, then back to another.. and so on. I would imagine it would be "fiddly as hell"
 
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marliv wrote:
Companies in Indonesia can have several parts, but every part can be considered as one piece that produces certain amount of goods and connect to certain sea regions. You don't need account every single production chit separate.

So you have company with 3 distinct parts. It would be only logical if first sold largest part, then moved to second largest and finally last one. Noting in mind if you some goods are left unsold.

With large companies and limited demand or bootlenecks, It would help at start to count up demand or identify bottlenecks.

Back to explanation: if you sell whimsy 2 goods from one part, 1 good from another, 2 goods from first again, 3 goods from yet another, then back to another.. and so on. I would imagine it would be "fiddly as hell"

I'm sorry you don't agree with me. Let's agree to disagree at this point.

 
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Martins Livens
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BTW I know geeks that are exactly opposite: enjoys Powergrid a lot, while finds Indonesia boring, because "every round is the same counting".
 
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Agent J
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I think using coins is a perfectly valid thing to do!
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enzo622 wrote:
marliv wrote:
Companies in Indonesia can have several parts, but every part can be considered as one piece that produces certain amount of goods and connect to certain sea regions. You don't need account every single production chit separate.

So you have company with 3 distinct parts. It would be only logical if first sold largest part, then moved to second largest and finally last one. Noting in mind if you some goods are left unsold.

With large companies and limited demand or bootlenecks, It would help at start to count up demand or identify bottlenecks.

Back to explanation: if you sell whimsy 2 goods from one part, 1 good from another, 2 goods from first again, 3 goods from yet another, then back to another.. and so on. I would imagine it would be "fiddly as hell"

I'm sorry you don't agree with me. Let's agree to disagree at this point.



It was answer to Jay actually.
But sure, we can disagree three-way!
 
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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marliv wrote:
BTW I know geeks that are exactly opposite: enjoys Powergrid a lot, while finds Indonesia boring, because "every round is the same counting".


That's why I bought Container...
 
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Nate S
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I love both Power Grid and Indonesia, and about equally. So there!

We put coins on boats most of the time while calculating shipping, then simply pick up the coins and give them to the owner of the shipping company.
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Jythier wrote:
I think using coins is a perfectly valid thing to do!


yes, marking used boats (is ok) and cities received goods (actually it's forced by rules) is valid.
While I was opposing idea marking sold goods at the producing location.
 
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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Ooooh, right. Yeah, don't mark goods at the sold spot... that's a pain.
 
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ghorsche wrote:
I love both Power Grid and Indonesia, and about equally. So there!

We put coins on boats most of the time while calculating shipping, then simply pick up the coins and give them to the owner of the shipping company.


I use poker chips, but have coins available just for that purpose, thought it happens around 5 times in a game.
 
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Agent J
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He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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The sea spaces are actually big enough for poker chips...
 
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Jythier wrote:
The sea spaces are actually big enough for poker chips...


Ships are not large enough for poker chips ninja
 
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Nate S
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re Container: I think there's a great game in there, but every single time I've played it the main strategy for winning has been to get people to grossly overbid on your deliveries - i.e. randomly become the beneficiary of bad play. Probably this problem is mitigated in a sufficiently experienced group, like other games that have a similar problem (e.g. Puerto Rico, Tigris & Euphrates), but I still feel there is a fundamental flaw in the pricing for buying your own goods. There should be a penalty for buying your own goods, but in the printed rules the penalty is much too large: you must effectively pay 3x the winning bid! I haven't playtested any alternatives but I think you should probably be able to take them at least 50% off the bid price, and possibly as low as free (which is still an opportunity cost of 2x the winning bid). Another variant that might make it a better game is to make the price paid by the winner the next highest bid instead of the winner's bid. All these other concerns would again be at least mitigated in an experienced group.
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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No way, you should never buy your own goods in Container. You are shipping to get THEM to buy your goods.

Regardless, I just tore up the PBF game by producing - yes, there were a couple of good bids on things I shipped, but most of my money came from NOT overbidding and selling factory goods based on the bids for the island goods that were coming in.

I think the 3x penalty is really a good design choice. I rarely consider buying my own goods, but I once managed to set up a load that upped my island by $30 while being worth $0 to all 3 other players. So I got them for just the cost at the warehouse.

Learn to incentivize your opponents to ship the load you want instead of trying to ship it yourself.

That all has very little to do with Indonesia though, so I think it's safe to say we're way off topic now.
 
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Nate S
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Jythier wrote:
No way, you should never buy your own goods in Container.

Exactly. The rules mention the possibility while setting the parameters so that it is (essentially) never the right move. You mentioned setting up a load that you could actually buy, and that's great. Imagine if that were a meaningful strategic option more than .000000000001% of the time! Of course even if the penalty is only 2x instead of 3x, the vast majority of the time I'm going to try to put together loads that other people will want to buy, and convince them to put together loads that I want to buy. I don't think Container needs to be about shipping to yourself (far from it), I just think that the option of buying your own loads is so outlandishly expensive that it unduly constricts the strategy space of the game. It also exacerbates the issue with novice players, in that you will get these obscene lowball bids (because several players who from a strategic standpoint should have bid higher simply didn't), and you have to take the money anyway. It's one more reason that it's often not a game of the best player winning, but rather the worst players gifting the victory to a random player regardless of who plays best.
 
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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Well, buying your own load is also a great way to say, 'Not on my watch, buddy' when people are bidding too low, especially earlier in the game where they are going to feel the pinch of it in the whole economy (but they probably bid low enough that it won't be a big enough deal to tank the whole game). It's also good for running that rebalancing late-game load, that nobody else is willing to ship... and they probably shouldn't be.

It's very important to remind the players they are actually participating in 2 auctions - a blind bid, and then a name-the-price bid against you. That's what keeps me bidding the way I do - I usually consider a max bid being $1 less than what I'm getting on the island, or the amount they paid for those containers at the harbor.
 
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Nate S
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Jythier wrote:
and then a name-the-price bid against you.

Yes, I would like to see that 2nd name-the-price auction actually have meaning in the game, and with a 3x penalty it is simply meaningless "That load's worth $30 to you? OK, I'll give you $12. Deal? Deal." The first auction (against the other bidders) is the only meaningful one, so the seller is dependent on the bidders to have some kind of cogent bidding strategy, so if they bid poorly the seller either receives a windfall through no merit of his own or gets screwed through no fault of his own.

Anyway, yes, this has nothing to do with Indonesia, haha.
 
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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People who like Indonesia like Container, don't you know?
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I am on the fence with Indonesia, and I apreciate Canales´ opinion a lot, since his tastes are very similar to mine (I like Power Grid though).

Have you tried the game already?

Please, post your feelings about it in such case.
 
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The second-hand copy of Indonesia I wanted was gone by the time I made up my mind.

Thus, I ordered a copy from an online game store. Unfortunately, the order is on hold until they get a copy of Mage Knight 2ed. devil

I plan to get Indonesia to the table as soon as I receive the order and will let you know how it goes.
 
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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Yay, we made you buy something! We're awesome.
 
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Jythier wrote:
Yay, we made you buy something! We're awesome.

Lol. Luckily for me they did not have a copy of Container, or else I would have bought it as well.
 
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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I've actually played Container less than Indonesia, in person, but I can get in Container online which has bumped up my plays quite a bit. I just make sure I get in at least one Indonesia every year.
 
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Andrew Nichols
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Loving both games...where are you playing Container online? I'd love to get some more plays in.

Set up for Indonesia next week with my gaming group.
 
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