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Joska Paszli
Netherlands
Culemborg
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Hello

I am wondering, when i BUY a miniature and I PAINT it myself and make a PHOTO of it and USE it in a game i am designing..... would that be legal or not?

And if NOT, what if i SCAN the miniature and BLUR-REWORK on it in photoshop..... is that ILLEGAL when used in a boardgame...?

So where is the line...?

Thanx!
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Dale Moore
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and so it begins. whistle
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Paul DeStefano
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It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
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If it is identifiable, it is illegal.

You have not paid the sculptor or licensed the miniature for use in your work.
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Pelle Nilsson
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I think anything you do to that photo, it will still be a derivate work of the figure, and thus infringement on the sculptor's copyrights, unless you get a license from him

http://www.wipo.int/sme/en/documents/ip_photography.htm#1

Not a lawyer though.

Technically I guess you can do like some people do with samples for their music: add effects and cut it up so much no one can guess what they sampled... It is still infringement, but they will not get caught if they do it right. But I don't see the point of including a completely messed up photo in the book anyway.
 
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J J
Australia
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Magyarkhan wrote:
Hello

I am wondering, when i BUY a miniature and I PAINT it myself and make a PHOTO of it and USE it in a game i am designing..... would that be legal or not?

And if NOT, what if i SCAN the miniature and BLUR-REWORK on it in photoshop..... is that ILLEGAL when used in a boardgame...?

So where is the line...?

Thanx!


There is no line.

The likeness of the miniature (it's design) is copyright.

Now, most companies are only too happy to have enthusiasts paint their miniatures wonderfully and display them (I say most because of Games Workshop - look 'em up some time). However, using the image of their miniature in any other way will generally get you letters from lawyers.

Using software to alter the image won't help if it can be determined that you are using someone else's sculpt to begin with.

The simple and best answer is always this - do you own art.
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Joska Paszli
Netherlands
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Thanx for your responds, how sad tho...

I cant really find good payable artists to do that kind of work..... any suggestions of good alternatives are welcome althou i have been searching myself for years.....
 
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Celina
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They are GW minis. I'd steer clear, it isn't worth the hassle.

Warbands fully print 'n play
 
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J J
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Celinashope wrote:
They are GW minis. I'd steer clear, it isn't worth the hassle.

Warbands fully print 'n play


Oh damn dude (Magyarkhan), you're screwed.

No really. GW are the most bloody-minded IP-paranoid mob in this industry. The reason I mentioned them above is because they are the poster-child for companies that send in the lawyers first and ask questions later. They go above and beyond what even the music industry regards as reasonable; they go so far as to demand the removal of text that just mentions their products.

They think it is justified, despite all the negative publicity it generates (consider - they make their money through miniatures, which they encourage, nay demand, their customers paint, and then they send legal threats to hobbyists doing nothing more than promoting GW's business by saying "hey look at these gorgeous miniatures on my web site"), and they won't hesitate to litigate against someone using their imagery the way you do.
 
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J J
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Dale-not-Chip wrote:
and so it begins. whistle


Nah, nah, nah, wrong IP, that's Babylon 5 that is, not Warhammer...
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Joska Paszli
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Culemborg
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:o( seems i am screwed.... well first i want to see a letter :o) jk

perhaps i should make 2 sets, a public fully legal set and a underground/home-published set....

what comes closest perhaps is the modelviewer from world of warcraft....

or is blizzard the same fanatic?
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Dale Moore
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Magyarkhan wrote:
:o( seems i am screwed.... well first i want to see a letter :o) jk

perhaps i should make 2 sets, a public fully legal set and a underground/home-published set....

what comes closest perhaps is the modelviewer from world of warcraft....

or is blizzard the same fanatic?


Blizzard is a money making Juggernaut with their own licensed board games as well. I'd be careful.
 
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Dale Moore
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Try searching from this site. it would be a good place for you to safely start.

http://search.creativecommons.org/

Legal Picture




A small amount of photoshopping

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Pelle Nilsson
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JasonJ0 wrote:


No really. GW are the most bloody-minded IP-paranoid mob in this industry. The reason I mentioned them above is because they are the poster-child for companies that send in the lawyers first and ask questions later. They go above and beyond what even the music industry regards as reasonable; they go so far as to demand the removal of text that just mentions their products.


BGG was hit by this a few years ago (as I am sure most here remember).

http://boingboing.net/2009/11/28/games-workshop-decla.html
"Games Workshop declares war on best customers. Again."

The Games Workshop Files Purge of '09
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Pelle Nilsson
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Dale-not-Chip wrote:
Try searching from this site. it would be a good place for you to safely start.

http://search.creativecommons.org/

Legal Picture




A small amount of photoshopping



You might be able to use the photographs in some contexts, but that does not mean that you can use them in a way that shows the copyright protected costumes off too prominently. Read that WIPO FAQ about photography I posted a link to.

EDIT: Assuming that the artist making the costumes did not also agree with a creative commons license of course. Maybe they did.
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Filip W.
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First off, this differs between countries. Secondly, most countries have some provision for fair use on the basis of artistic merit so that if you'd add or alter to the original work in such a way as it would be considered to have sufficient artistic merit in addition to the base materials it would constitute fair use (i.e. not infringement). Compare this to the Warhola pop-art, which would clearly be infringement if it didn't fall under just this type of fair use.
 
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Dale Moore
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pelni wrote:
Dale-not-Chip wrote:
Try searching from this site. it would be a good place for you to safely start.

http://search.creativecommons.org/

Legal Picture




A small amount of photoshopping



You might be able to use the photographs in some contexts, but that does not mean that you can use them in a way that shows the copyright protected costumes off too prominently. Read that WIPO FAQ about photography I posted a link to.

EDIT: Assuming that the artist making the costumes did not also agree with a creative commons license of course. Maybe they did.


At least in the USA in this case the copyright holder falls to the picture taker not the subject. As you can see this photo was taken at a public place. That makes using the picture legal because the photographer bad the rights such that you could even use this. it would be no different if a news photographer took the picture. The copyright would be the newspaper to sell as they saw fit.


It would a different case if it was in a display setting of a costume and you came into the private venue and took a picture.

That was a quick example because I wasn't going to spend a ton of time on an example, but If I was going to use pictures like that I would spend more time in Photoshop making it look like a painting of Orcs and not just a picture with the back blurred.
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Pelle Nilsson
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filwi wrote:
First off, this differs between countries.


Sure. Which is why I linked to WIPO, and they do mention that a few details are country specific (we can probably ignore countries that did not sign the Bern convention).

Quote:
Secondly, most countries have some provision for fair use on the basis of artistic merit so that if you'd add or alter to the original work in such a way as it would be considered to have sufficient artistic merit in addition to the base materials it would constitute fair use (i.e. not infringement).


If you base something on someone else's work you have created a derivate work. Thus artists being sued for sampling a second or less from some other song. Besides, fair use is an American thing, almost not existing elsewhere (eg Sweden).

Quote:
Compare this to the Warhola pop-art, which would clearly be infringement if it didn't fall under just this type of fair use.


But that is ART. There are all sorts of things you can do if it can be reasonably claimed to be some sort of political artistic reflection of society blah blah blah. If you are going to get away with something like that in a game you would better be Brenda Brathwaite. Or the guys that made "The McDonald's Game" (a computer game). I don't think the OP should try it (not that I am a lawyer, or that even a lawyer would know for sure).
 
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Pelle Nilsson
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Dale-not-Chip wrote:

At least in the USA in this case the copyright holder falls to the picture taker not the subject. As you can see this photo was taken at a public place. That makes using the picture legal because the photographer bad the rights such that you could even use this. it would be no different if a news photographer took the picture. The copyright would be the newspaper to sell as they saw fit.


The photographer owns the copyright of the photograph. I did not say anything else. But not the costumes. Did you read the WIPO copyright on photography page?

Quote:
It would a different case if it was in a display setting of a costume and you came into the private venue and took a picture.


Nope. If I find a GW miniature out in the street that doesn't mean I can take a photo of it and suddenly have the right to give away that for free so anyone can make copies (like some other company sculpting copies from my photo). Think about it. It would be really weird. Whomever created those costumes holds the copyright of that design, the photographer holds the copyright to the photograph. Or explain how it could possibly work otherwise.

I actually have a photo of a fantasy cardboard counter I saw on the ground once. Looks like an elf from some kind of fantasy wargame. I was so surprised I had to get the photo. Of course I own the copyright of my photo, but I couldn't make a drawing based on my photo of an elf and use in my own games, could I? That would be a bit too obvious hole in copyright law for not everyone to use.
 
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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If you feel the need to ask, you're probably a little too close to the line.
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Jason
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Magyarkhan wrote:
what comes closest perhaps is the modelviewer from world of warcraft....

You'd still be using art which you don't have rights to use. It's best to just avoid doing this altogether.

You mention in your other thread that you haven't found a good artist. If, by "good artist", you mean someone who can do art in this style, you either haven't looked very hard or aren't willing to pay enough. There is a huge amount of fantastical art out there depicting orcs.

Magyarkhan wrote:
or is blizzard the same fanatic?

It doesn't matter whether a company is "fanatic" or not. In the U.S., if a company doesn't enforce its copyright, that copyright can be lost.
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Joska Paszli
Netherlands
Culemborg
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true, i am smarter than i present myself here but i am a perfectionist in these things and since my youth i admired the artwork of gw.... although i vomited on there policies and strategy around their games... but alas

i seek a artist who can deliver a good job at a reasonable price which leads me to some low-paid country artist but somehow sofar i didnt found any or found any who was willingly to reply... (the artist fo battlelore eg :what

well its not only about orcs... but several races i am not bound to the warhammer universe but all artwork should be in the same style....

are there ones who do 15$ for one illustration?
 
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Dale Moore
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I did read it. There is a huge difference of finding an art on the street and some particapents at a festival. Your argument States you couldn't take pictures of anything but nature. Pictured of costume actors on a closed set, then you would be correct.

Somebody designed cloths, buildings, landscapes,jewelery.

Wearing their outfits in public made it fine for non profit use.

Now if was going to make money off the game it would violate the creative commons law.


pelni wrote:
Dale-not-Chip wrote:

At least in the USA in this case the copyright holder falls to the picture taker not the subject. As you can see this photo was taken at a public place. That makes using the picture legal because the photographer bad the rights such that you could even use this. it would be no different if a news photographer took the picture. The copyright would be the newspaper to sell as they saw fit.


The photographer owns the copyright of the photograph. I did not say anything else. But not the costumes. Did you read the WIPO copyright on photography page?

Quote:
It would a different case if it was in a display setting of a costume and you came into the private venue and took a picture.


Nope. If I find a GW miniature out in the street that doesn't mean I can take a photo of it and suddenly have the right to give away that for free so anyone can make copies (like some other company sculpting copies from my photo). Think about it. It would be really weird. Whomever created those costumes holds the copyright of that design, the photographer holds the copyright to the photograph. Or explain how it could possibly work otherwise.

I actually have a photo of a fantasy cardboard counter I saw on the ground once. Looks like an elf from some kind of fantasy wargame. I was so surprised I had to get the photo. Of course I own the copyright of my photo, but I couldn't make a drawing based on my photo of an elf and use in my own games, could I? That would be a bit too obvious hole in copyright law for not everyone to use.
 
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Pelle Nilsson
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Dale-not-Chip wrote:
I did read it. There is a huge difference of finding an art on the street and some particapents at a festival.


Why? They own the copyrights of the costumes?

What if someone was wearing Disney costumes in a carnival, would that give me the right to take photos and make my own game with Mickey Mouse based on the photo?

Quote:
Your argument States you couldn't take pictures of anything but nature. Pictured of costume actors on a closed set, then you would be correct.


You can. I did not say that. You have the rights to your photograph and can use it in certain ways, but if you want to pick an object in the photograph and make a picture from for whatever use, it better be a piece of nature or public domain.

Notice how even buildings are copyright. But as they say, in most countries it is ok to use a photo anyway as long as the building is just in the background, and some other exceptions. But not make model buildings based on real buildings and sell without permission from the architect (unless he was dead 70 or so years already).
 
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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Luckily, you only LOSE money in the game industry, so creative commons always applies!

whistle
 
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Joska Paszli
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Culemborg
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and what if it was nonprofitable? i have no intentions to ask money for my game/work.... i just want to design a best of all wargame
 
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