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Subject: Rulebook Revisions, etc rss

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Jim Dietz
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Since there seem to be a large number of people interested in Kremlin , I am working on revising the rules--and while I can't post them, I do want a sense of feedback from people.

The intentions:

1 - I am trying to organize the rules into four sections. The first are the main rules that are used no matter what. After that, I am putting the rules appropriate for the "Standard", "1920s", and "Modern" games in seperate sections. As I was working, I was putting all sorts of exceptions into every section and I felt that was rather confusing.

2 - Are different sets of rules a problem?

I ask the second question because I am intending for the following...

Standard: Will basically follow the Fata Morgana rules, especially regarding Politician aging, Siberia, and the victory conditions.

1920s: Will be similar to the Avalon Hill Revolution set--though the cards are different

Modern: Will take some elements of the other two games, but will also add a new thing called "Going into Exile"

Will this be too confusing? Should there be ONLY one set of rules across all three eras?
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Mark J
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I'd say there should be a standard set of rules that are playable on any edition.

Then there can be official variant rules that make each version playable the way it was ultimately intended to be played.

I'd also recommend fixing the the advanced rule when it comes to IP tie-breaks. I don't think this is even a necessary rule but if you're going to have it there should be a more simple procedure.

 
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Brent Brown
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I'd be fine with multiple rule versions... although personally, we are most likely to want to play with the standard Avalon Hill 1st/2nd edition rules. We rarely played with the expansions.

I agree that it does sound confusing. Would it be possible to combine the main & standard rules and have that be the mainstay, and then have 1920s and Modern be official variants?



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Jim Dietz
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Brent--I don't know.

What I have right now is the basics first such as the components and turn sequence.

What I'm trying to put in the 'seperate' sections:

Which Intrigue Cards get used / aren't used
Victory Conditions
Difference in Purge results (dead/Siberia/whatever)

That sort of thing. My logic is that that would allow players to go to a single page during the game for questions--since most would be answered there rather than trying to find it throughout the rulebook.
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James Ryan
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Splitting the rules up into sections is a great idea. Yes. Good move.

It will make the game easier to learn/teach, and will make specific rules questions much easier to answer.
 
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William Baldwin
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I think that the modern rules should be the standard... the game deserves a modern take.

I would make the other sets available as PDF downloads at BGG and Jolly Roger sites for free.


Personal request - balance the cards... some were quite useless.

I will be buying this... that hidden control is too cool. I let a friend think he controlled the chief... until it came time to wave.

Can't wait!
 
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Jim Dietz
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Willi B wrote:
I think that the modern rules should be the standard... the game deserves a modern take.

I would make the other sets available as PDF downloads at BGG and Jolly Roger sites for free.


Personal request - balance the cards... some were quite useless.

I will be buying this... that hidden control is too cool. I let a friend think he controlled the chief... until it came time to wave.

Can't wait!


Hi--I'll try and review the cards to see how they fit. Balance is tough--interesting cards that aren't too strong but also aren't worthless...

I don't want to make sets available as PDF. I want gamers to have everything right there in the set. It'll mean a longer rulebook--but that's a miniscule part of the component cost.

* * *
As another thought--if the rules were to 'double' in size in order to put brief biographies of the politicians in the game, etc, would that be desirable or would that get in the way?
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Chris
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Bios are fun for a game like this, I hope to see them. In a separate section, far away from the actual rules.
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William Baldwin
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Liumas wrote:
Bios are fun for a game like this, I hope to see them. In a separate section, far away from the actual rules.


What Chris said.
 
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Jim Dietz
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Willi B wrote:
Liumas wrote:
Bios are fun for a game like this, I hope to see them. In a separate section, far away from the actual rules.


What Chris said.


Fair enough

So if they were bios like I did for Founding Fathers--those would be good?
 
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Brian Morris
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The bios in Founding Fathers were fine except for Robert Morris. Great great great great great grandpa deserved at least 4 pages to himself.

Let's face it, most of us aren't really solid on our Russian political figures outside names like Gorbachev, Stalin, Khrushchev and Brezhnev. The bios need to be just long enough to give flavor to the people for those not familiar with the them. I think you hit the sweet spot with the bios in Founding Fathers so those would be a good measure for Kremlin.
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Jim Dietz
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mrbeankc wrote:
The bios in Founding Fathers were fine except for Robert Morris. Great great great great great grandpa deserved at least 4 pages to himself.

Let's face it, most of us aren't really solid on our Russian political figures outside names like Gorbachev, Stalin, Khrushchev and Brezhnev. The bios need to be just long enough to give flavor to the people for those not familiar with the them. I think you hit the sweet spot with the bios in Founding Fathers so those would be a good measure for Kremlin.


Fair enough.

So if it were something that included:
Birth-Death dates
Cause of Death
Hometown
3-4 things of interest on the individual...that would work?
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Brian Morris
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I think 3 or 4 things of interest is a good standard. I don't think we need an overly detailed biography for the people. Just enough so folks have a basic understanding of who the person is. If folks have their interest peaked by the game they can always go to wikipedia to do some further research.

We're also talking about a lot of people here and I expect there's going to be a practical limit to the amount of space you can allot to this in the rulebook.
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Chris
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jollyrogergames wrote:
So if it were something that included:
Birth-Death dates
Cause of Death
Hometown
3-4 things of interest on the individual...that would work?

Sure. But... I've never played Founding Fathers, but since you are comparing this to that I downloaded the rules and skimmed the F.F.Bios.

I think these here don't have to be anything as long as that. The nature of this game would benefit from a quick hit, not a history lesson. (maybe some gamers might like you to include an actual history lesson - if you decide to do that, that would be cool, too.)

We want to breath a bit of life into these folks, not write a book report. Something that people could easily read in passing and get just the most basic feel for the characters. Hometown is key. Death date? Don't care. Cause of Death? We are playing Kremlin - everyone is alive at the start, he'll die as he dies in OUR game. 3-4 things of interest? Nah, only 1 or 2 things of interest, plus a hometown; a birth date might be good, but not essential. All for each set probably on a single sheet of paper, especially handy as a hand out.
 
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Brian Morris
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Here's a sample of the bios from Founding Fathers for those who don't know the game.



I hardly consider these mini bios to be long or book reports. They're simple yet concise. Perfect for what is needed here. One of the fun things about Kremlin is it's unique historical subject matter. This isn't a euro with a draped on theme that could be anything. By presenting these historical figures without context you will strip away flavor that many players will enjoy.

Ok, history isn't everyone's cup of tea and that's fine but for many of us part of the fun of Kremlin is that historical element. Without that you might as well just slap a bunch of made up names and pictures and dump the historical figures. Strip the bios down to just a single line and you might as well not include them at all.
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Sean Hunt
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I recommend going with a single set of base rules (My personal preference would be for the original) and this set should be a playable game. Then list the other sets as variants and enumerate their rules separately.

Also, be very clear about whether or not the Party Chief can swap politicians up and down (e.g. exchange a 1st level politician with a 2nd level politician when no vacancy exists at either level). This seems to be a point of contention.
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Benjamin Kindt
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For what it is worth, my personal preference is the original Fata Morgana ruleset, so I'm happy this will still be included.

I suspect very few people will want to keep differences between each version in their head as they learn the game. My recommendation:

1. Distill the rules common to all versions down into a basic rules section.

2. Highlight the theme / central ideas of each variant

3. Present each variant as a self-contained ruleset, stepping off from the basic rules.

Can't wait to see this come to life.
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