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London's Burning» Forums » Rules

Subject: Pilot Death rss

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Joseph Cesare
United States
San Marcos
California
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I dusted off the game last night after a couple of years and I have a question about pilot death. Does two hits on the pilot kill the pilot? The reason I'm asking is a phrase in the bail out rule which states "assuming he is not killed." What kills a pilot?
 
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Scott Key
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Knoxville
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I was convinced that the pilot was killed with 2 hits but the rules actually read as follows
Quote:
two or more hits on the pilot position destroys an aircraft
from 9.2. So I assume you can only kill a pilot in the bail-out roll.....?
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Tony Oddo
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Well, you kill the pilot (with 2 hits) the plane crashes.....whistle
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Joseph Cesare
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bosk wrote:
Well, you kill the pilot (with 2 hits) the plane crashes.....whistle


Well that is the crux of the problem. You are assuming it as fact as is the "Turn Sequence Guide" doc in the file section. I see nothing that explicitly states this. I think the confusion comes from the Bail Out rule (9.5) which says parenthically "the pilot must bail out (assuming he is not killed)." The only place I see the pilot killed in the rules is the bail out roll (9.5) and the Wound Outcome roll (11.2). If this sequence is correct then the pilot is never dead when the bailout occurs, making "(assuming he is not killed)" impossible.

Does anyone play 2 hits on the pilot as:
1)Plane destroyed
2)Bailout roll (9.5)
3)At end of raid, if Pilot survives bailout then Wound Outcome roll (11.2)
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Carl Paradis
Canada
Ste-Thérèse
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Two hits kill the pilot. Plane Destroyed.
 
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Joseph Cesare
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licinius wrote:
Two hits kill the pilot. Plane Destroyed.

Are you playing it this way or quoting the rules?
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Tony Oddo
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Sorry Joseph, I am not assuming anything. From the rules, in the RECORDING DAMAGE section:

"Place an Aircraft Hit marker in a position when it is hit. If the same position is hit two or more times flip the Marker over to its destroyed side.

Two or more hits in the same position, except the GUNNER position, destroys an aircraft."

In the pilot section: One hit wounds a pilot (German or British) and degrades performance. Two or more hits on the pilot (which is essentially killed) and the aircraft is destroyed. In the bailout section, if the plane is destroyed, the pilot can bail out (if he has not been killed by two or more hits which also destroys the aircraft).

Two hits in the same place destroy that position ie. kills the pilot, destroys the engine or destroys the airframe. All of which results in a crash.
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Joseph Cesare
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bosk wrote:
Sorry Joseph, I am not assuming anything. From the rules, in the RECORDING DAMAGE section:

"Place an Aircraft Hit marker in a position when it is hit. If the same position is hit two or more times flip the Marker over to its destroyed side.

Two or more hits in the same position, except the GUNNER position, destroys an aircraft."

In the pilot section: One hit wounds a pilot (German or British) and degrades performance. Two or more hits on the pilot (which is essentially killed) and the aircraft is destroyed. In the bailout section, if the plane is destroyed, the pilot can bail out (if he has not been killed by two or more hits which also destroys the aircraft).

Two hits in the same place destroy that position ie. kills the pilot, destroys the engine or destroys the airframe. All of which results in a crash.


IMO "(which is essentially killed)" is an assumption.
Again, the only place I see the pilot explicitly killed in the rules is the bail out roll (9.5) and the Wound Outcome roll (11.2). Two hits on the pilot destroys the plane but you can bailout of a destroyed aircraft.

If people are playing "two hits kills the pilot," fine, but the rules are ambiguous.
 
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Tony Cutcliffe
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Paignton
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I found it confusing at first, and in common with many AH solitaire games, it seems that the designer is assuming that people will 'know what he means'. However I feel that two or more hits on the Pilot position, causing you to put a 'Destroyed' marker on that position means that he's been 'destroyed'. Not his seat or his potted plant mascot, but the pilot himself.

Also a careful reading of series replays of this game contain references to the burst which 'riddles the pilot' - I imagine they've scored two or more hits on him and killed him.

You're right, though, it is confusing the way it's written.
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James Jenkins
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2 hits, pilot is destroyed.

If the engine or airframe takes 2 hits, they are destroyed, also.

How could a pilot possibly survive if the Engine can't take two hits?

The rule is saying plane is destroyed not because it is physically destroyed when the pilot takes 2 hits, but a plane with a dead pilot cannot fly itself = Crash.

Take 2 hours and watch Battle of Britain the film to see what is the deal on this.

The rule is not explicit about 2 hits = killed, but it is explicit about 2 hits, plane destroyed. Logically, if the plane is "destroyed: by hitting pilot twice, why is this?

That's how I see it. Best of luck.



 
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Purple TripleCrown
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I've recently been playing this game, and I respectfully disagree with the majority of opinion on this thread.

People are assuming that 2 hits on the pilot equals 2 wounds to the pilot. The hits are on the pilot section of the plane, not the pilot himself. 2 hits make the plane inoperable, and destruction inevitable (recall that 1 hit, by contrast, allows the plane to be flown back to a base).

The bailout roll takes into account the various chances of death (killed by damage to the pilot section, killed by the bailout, killed by failure to rescue).

The roll for wounds takes into account whether damage to the pilot section equals a wound to the pilot, a death (in essence the result of pilot who will not return to the game), or just shakes the pilot up. If a single hit to the pilot section might result in no wound at all, why do we assume that a second hit would? I think the rules have been intentionally explicit in providing that the plane is destroyed by the second hit, not the pilot himself (and thus, the roll for wounds).

As a result, in my view the pilot can bail out of the plane despite 2 hits to the pilot section.
 
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Paul Spak
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Spencer
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I've always played 2 hits on the pilot = KIA. But, I expect it's a lot easier to win this game if the pilots are harder to kill.

I don't have any stats in front of me, But I'd guess that more UK pilots were killed 'in-flight' rather than post bail-out.
 
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Tony Oddo
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Well, while that is a good point. According to the rules and gameboards, the position hit is "pilot" and not "cockpit".
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Purple TripleCrown
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bosk wrote:
Well, while that is a good point. According to the rules and gameboards, the position hit is "pilot" and not "cockpit".


It is true that the board says "pilot". However, 9.2 of the rules says "pilot position". However, the real issue is what harm comes to the pilot from the hit to the pilot position. It's clear that a single "hit" on the pilot may result in no wound at all (just shaken up). That result would not be logical if every "hit" on the pilot position resulted in the pilot himself being struck. Further, every roll for wounds < 5 results in the pilot not being seriously hurt (ie > 50 % chance that "pilot hit" does not result in serious harm to the pilot). What is clear is that the cockpit is damaged. The plane cannot continue in combat (even if it is subsequently determined that the pilot suffered no wound at all).

It does seem logically flawed that a second hit to the "pilot position" wouldn't negatively impact the roll for wounds, but the destruction of the plane (the very clear result of 9.2) does cause the further bail out roll, increasing the likelihood of the pilot being killed (he now has to survive both the bailout and wound rolls).

The only other damage position which refers to a crew member is "gunner". Interestingly, the rules (9.3) are explicit in that case that 2 hits on that position kills the gunner, but doesn't result in the destruction of the aircraft. There is no roll for wounds for the gunner. Any hit to his position wounds and disables him. Since the rule sections come one after the other, it looks like the distinction is intentional on the part of the game designers.

Some food for thought.

p.s. I find the game extremely difficult to win even based on my interpretation of this rule. The simple math of the game is that the vast majority of successful bombing missions of the Germans produce either 2 or 3 victory points, regardless of the amount of damage done to the target. Since almost all raids are at least partially successful (in my experience), the RAF player has to shoot down at least 2-3 planes per raid, and manage not to lose all his pilots (or have them grounded for subsequent raids on the same day that they pancake) during the length of the scenario that is being played.
 
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Spencer Olson
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Huntersville
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I have played this with the following house rules...

(11.2 RAF Pilots modified) "Roll one die for each hit on an RAF pilot's position and consult the Wound Outcome Table."

rather than the rule as stated ...

(11.2 RAF Pilots) "Roll one die for each hit RAF pilot and consult the Wound Outcome Table"

The modified rule does penalize multiple hits to the pilot position, one, two or more rolls on the WOT, whereas the strict interpretation on the rules would be just one roll. Personally I did not interpret the rules as stating that two or more hits on the pilot position was an automatic KIA, it does destroy the plane and you do have to roll on the Bail Out Table however. The second house rule is for 8.5 Head on Attacks.

(8.5 Head on Attacks modified) "Therefore, treat any Gunner Hit (4) as a Pilot hit instead, as if they hits were gunner hits on the pilot, hence the first hit wounds the pilot and the second hit kills him ..."

rather than the rule as stated ...

(8.5 Head on Attacks modified) "Therefore, treat any Gunner Hit (4) as a Pilot hit instead, and ..."

This treats head on attacks as a double edged sword, no performance check, but you run the risk of a dead pilot. In my mind this clarifies the "(assuming he is not killed)" clause in 9.5 Bailing Out, since he could have been killed in a Head on Attack.

Anyway, my two cents.
 
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