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Subject: Noise ID ability - trash face down? rss

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Andy E
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I'm assuming that when Noise's identity ability occurs (whenever you install a virus program, corp trashes top R&D card), that card is trashed face down. Is this correct, or should it be face up?
 
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Alex Troesch
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My understanding is that if any card that the runner has not seen is moved to the archives then it is placed there face down. So I believe you're correct.
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Andy Mills
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Agreed.
 
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Enon Sci
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nindustrial wrote:
I'm assuming that when Noise's identity ability occurs (whenever you install a virus program, corp trashes top R&D card), that card is trashed face down. Is this correct, or should it be face up?


Doesn't matter, the Corp gets to peek at the archives at any time (and the Runner would already know what it was). Unless you're playing with a pound of high grade cannabis next to your table, it shouldn't really matter that much in the course of the length of the average match.

edit: but, yeah, the rules doesn't say, but the rules do speak to cards trashed from HQ being face-down, even if they had been peeked at by the Runner.
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Alex Troesch
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Yeah, judging from that clause it seem that if a card is put in the archives if that comes from an area of 'restricted information' (i.e. unrezzed installed cards, HQ, or R&D) then the card moves to archives face down, even if the card had been seen or exposed by the runner previously.

EDIT: The rulebook is specific about one thing, if the runner pays to trash a card when accessing it, the card is placed in archives face up. However, the trashed card from Noise's ability does not access the card so I believe it is face down and unknown to the runner until a successful run on archives is made.
 
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Andy E
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All helpful input, thanks everyone. I guess to get more specific, does the Runner get to actually view the trashed R&D card, regardless of how it's placed in Archives, or does it move directly to Archives facedown, making it a mystery for the Runner (until a successful run on Archives)?
 
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El-ad David Amir
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Anarchosyn wrote:
Doesn't matter, the Corp gets to peek at the archives at any time (and the Runner would already know what it was).

Why would the Runner know what it was? I can imagine the Runner playing a Virus before running R&D, or playing several virii in a row without running R&D in between.

 
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Andy Mills
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Anarchosyn wrote:
nindustrial wrote:
I'm assuming that when Noise's identity ability occurs (whenever you install a virus program, corp trashes top R&D card), that card is trashed face down. Is this correct, or should it be face up?


Doesn't matter....


It matters A LOT. Noise doesn't get to look at the card he trashes. He won't know whether that was a trap, an ICE, or an Agenda until he runs Archives.
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Andy E
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While initially I assumed it went facedown, I'm now noticing that a card "discarded" to Archives is placed facedown, but when a card is "trashed", albeit by a Runner paying the trash cost, it is placed face up (see pg. 18). It would seem that, while Noise isn't paying to trash the top card, maybe it ought to be treated the same... I realize the Runner hasn't seen it prior to the trashing, but otherwise wouldn't the ID car just say that the Corp must "discard" rather than "trash" the top card?
 
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Andy Mills
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I think it's the difference between the Runner trashing one of the Corp's cards and the Corp doing it themselves.
 
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Enon Sci
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manydills wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:
nindustrial wrote:
I'm assuming that when Noise's identity ability occurs (whenever you install a virus program, corp trashes top R&D card), that card is trashed face down. Is this correct, or should it be face up?


Doesn't matter....


It matters A LOT. Noise doesn't get to look at the card he trashes. He won't know whether that was a trap, an ICE, or an Agenda until he runs Archives.


True, and I've argued the point you're making before. I was replying in haste from my phone and didn't fully bring to mind that this wasn't run related (milling the corps hand through an R&D run). What I said was in reference to that. Given this is a "spooky action at a distance" ability, Noise gained zero rights to seeing the card, so it's not even a question.
 
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Andy Mills
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I would pay money to have a well-optimized mobile BGG forum interface. I can definitely relate.
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Tony Hamen
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I think that trashing it face down is a huge aspect of noise's strategy. You trash enough cards, and then when chances are good an agenda has been trash, you make the archive run. I seem to remember reading in the rules that any cards that make it to the Archives unseen by the runner stay that way no matter the method. I do remember it pointing out that trashed cards are placed face up, but in that particular example the runner was paying the trash cost on the card.

What do I know though. I don't have much experience in CCG's and honestly this game is throwing my girlfriend and I through some loops due to ambiguous rules. It isn't a testament to a concise rulebook when many of the rule questions already have players debating on how some aspect of the game or a card should work. There is a FAQ and the game was JUST released. It's a good thing the game is fun as hell.
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Mat Nowak
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From page 6 of the rulebook:
Quote:
Some cards enter Archives faceup, and some cards enter
Archives facedown. Facedown cards in Archives should be
oriented horizontally so that the Runner can easily see them.
Both the Corporation and Runner may look through the
faceup cards stored in Archives at any time, and do not need to
maintain the order of its cards while doing so. The Corporation
can also look at the facedown cards in Archives at any time; the
Runner cannot.


From page 13:
Quote:
When installing a card in a server, the Corporation can first
trash any cards already installed in that server. Trashed cards go
to Archives faceup if they are rezzed, and facedown if they are
unrezzed.


From page 14: (Doesn't really apply to this question but I'm including this for completeness sake).
Quote:
Cards discarded from HQ are always sent to Archives
facedown, regardless of whether they have been previously
accessed by the Runner.


From page 18:
Quote:
Archives: The Runner accesses all cards in Archives and any
upgrades in its root. The Runner turns all cards faceup when
accessing them, and does not need to keep them in order. The
Runner steals all agendas in Archives and cannot trash cards
that are already in Archives. After accessing Archives, all
cards in Archives return to Archives faceup.


So, as you can see from all this, cards trashed by Noise's ability enter the Archives face down in a horizontally oriented pile. (This is because the card in question enters the Archives from an unrezzed state). After the runner makes a successful run on the Archives and accesses all of its cards, all the facedown cards are turned faceup into the vertically oriented pile. This helps the runner keep track of the cards he's seen already.
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James Simon
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So is this the same for Advanced Beta Test?
Any cards not installed, ie. ice, would be trashed face down?
We have house ruled at least that all unknown cards are put into archives facedown unless trashed as part of the acess phase of a run.
I think the confusion is that they differentiate between trash and discard when there doesn't seem to be any reason for it.
 
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Big Head Zach
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Basically, any Corp card that:

1) the Runner is not currently accessing, or
2) is installed but hasn't been rezzed,

goes to the Archives face down when it is discarded/trashed.
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Tim Meng
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bhz1 wrote:
Basically, any Corp card that:

1) the Runner is not currently accessing, or
2) is installed but hasn't been rezzed,

goes to the Archives face down when it is discarded/trashed.


3) is discarded by the Corp during their end of turn "phase", or for any game effect that discards cards from the Corp's hand (none exist yet).
 
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Big Head Zach
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trekkienz wrote:
bhz1 wrote:
Basically, any Corp card that:

1) the Runner is not currently accessing, or
2) is installed but hasn't been rezzed,

goes to the Archives face down when it is discarded/trashed.


3) is discarded by the Corp during their end of turn "phase", or for any game effect that discards cards from the Corp's hand (none exist yet).


3 would in effect be a subset of either 1 or 2.
 
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Exceptio probat regulam
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Until it's FAQ'd I suggest a simple approach:

If the Runner can see the card at the time it's trashed, put in into Archives face up. If not, face down.
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