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Battlestar Galactica: Exodus Expansion» Forums » Variants

Subject: The Daybreak mini-expansion - Now in Beta phase rss

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Mark L
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oriecat wrote:
markino wrote:
schmloof wrote:
6-PP. The wording implies they can still play interrupts. Is this correct?

Also, can they use Character abilities? If no to both, I'd suggest, "They may not affect the skill check in any way"

This is correct. PP does however still come before other interrupts (like the unmodified version), so a play of PP (in PBF) would return all interrupts/Arbitrator/Chief of Staff back to the respective player.



Plain english for me please, because my brain isn't going to work tonight. Are you rewording this or not? if so to what Daniel said?

No, I'm not. Players are still allowed to play interrupts and other abilities.
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Mindy G
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Thank you!
 
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Mark L
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Maintenance Engineer: Once per turn, after a location you do not occupy is damaged, you may move to that location. (You do not have to discard a card to move between ships.)
 
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Ryan West
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So, I was sitting in front of my computer (and mourning the loss of my whole damn fleet in V46b, grumble), decided to try my hand at Cylon Leader Doral, and somehow ended up with a full set.

I have no idea if you're at all interested in adding a pile of new characters to an expansion in beta, but because it was your D'Anna that showed me how to cleverly break the pattern of Cylon Leader skill sets, I wanted to run them by you first to see if you were.

Keep in mind these are quite rough: I "designed" them all in around two hours, so there are certainly big holes in them (mechanically, balance-wise, what have you).

Also, if this isn't the type of thing you're interested in, please let me know and I'll blank this post so I don't hijack your thread with a discussion of my CL ideas

DORAL
Cylon Leader
1 Politics/1 Treachery
Setup: "Administration" (Infiltrating)

Bureaucracy - Once all Skill Cards played into a skill check have been revealed, before resolving skill check abilities, you may either play a skill check ability card from your hand into the check, or prevent a skill check ability in the check from triggering. If you add a card to the check with this ability, do not include its strength in the skill check's total.

Signed at Gunpoint - Once per game, immediately before cards are played into a skill check, take control of another player's hand of skill cards for the duration of the check. You decide which cards, and how many, that player contributes.
-------------------------
Sycophant - Your skill set includes only one card. At the end of your Receive Skills step, the player before you in turn order chooses a skill type. Draw 1 card of that type.
(OR)
Misguided Duplicity - Your skill set includes only one card. At the end of your Receive Skills step, draw 1 Treachery if you are infiltrating, or 1 Politics if you are not.

A manipulative bureaucrat who works best in the shadows, more follower than leader.

His OPT may be confusing, and I'm going to try to figure out a better way to word it. To clarify, it doesn't change any of the rules surrounding skill check abilities (e.g. he can't cause more than one of the same ability to trigger), it just lets him add (or remove) them from the check without affecting the check total. Also, he cancels SCA's individually -- so, if two of the same SCA appear in a check, he can't prevent it from triggering as he can only affect one of them.

His OPG is extremely powerful: It's capable of determining a check's outcome AND burning someone's hand of Skill Cards AND soft-loyalty testing someone all at once, in the right circumstances. I really like it, though, and I hope that I can balance Doral without having to throw a "max 2 cards" limit on the ability.

I especially like the flavor of "Sycophant", but it's a touch disruptive to the flow of the game AND it'll often be a strength if the players' loyalties match, thus the alternative weakness. I would love ideas on a better way to capture that "follower" flavor, though, while balancing his strong OPT and OPG with a toothy downside.


SIMON
Cylon Leader
1 Engineering/1 Treachery
Setup: "Caprica"

Invasive Surgery - At the beginning of your Receive Skills step, choose another player with at least four Skill Cards in their hand. That player must reveal three of those cards to you. Take one of the revealed cards and add it to your hand.

Vivisection - Action: Select a character who is not being played and who has not been executed. Permanently replace "Vivisection" on your character sheet with that character's once-per-game ability. For the rest of the game, that character may not be selected to replace an executed human character. ("Vivisection" is not a once-per-game ability.)
-------------------------
On Call - While you are infiltrating, whenever a player is moved to "Sickbay", you are moved to "Sickbay". While you are not infiltrating, whenever a player is moved to the "Resurrection Ship", you are moved to the "Resurrection Ship". You may not activate the "Resurrection Ship" if you were last sent there by this ability.

Simon: the Cylon Dr. Mengele. I'm tentatively pleased with him, as I thought he'd be the trickiest to get right.

His OPT doesn't strike me as too powerful (players will always be able to hold back their best card, and if no one has 4+ cards, he loses a draw), and it provides opportunities for players to send him secret signals (I'm always looking for ways to give CL's a bigger role in the social/political part of the game).

I love the OPG (it parallels "The Farm" Super Crisis and vivisections are creepy), so I hope there aren't any unforeseen fatal flaws with it: The Action requirement cuts back on unfair surprises, and the "not a once-per-game ability" reminder is there to prevent any confusion over whether he can USE the ability he steals.

I think "On Call" is a balanced weakness, though it may prove to be too annoying in play.


SHARON
Cylon Leader
1 Piloting
1 Engineering/1 Treachery
Setup: "Caprica"

Cylon Viper Pilot - While piloting a viper, if you have not attacked a Cylon ship since the start of your last turn, you are ignored by raiders. You may activate your viper to attack another viper in your sector, damaging it on a roll of 5-8. When not infiltrating, you may launch and pilot a destroyed viper from the "Cylon Fleet" location; you may move back to "Cylon Fleet" by discarding a card (return the destroyed viper to the box); and you may play Piloting Skill Cards for their text abilities.

Cylon Virus - Once per game, before Cylon ships would activate, you may immediately destroy all Cylon ships of that type on the main board OR activate the "Cylon Fleet" location.
-------------------------
Fool for Love - At the beginning of the game, you are randomly dealt both a "Humans Win" Agenda and a "Cylons Win" Agenda. When the fleet jumps for the first time, choose another human player. To win the game, you must have satisfied the Agenda that matches the loyalty of the chosen player. If you do not, both you and the chosen player lose.

Ok, definitely some out-of-the-box thinking here, that's for sure, and this may not be to everyone's taste. I really wanted to make her a pilot, because she's the obvious choice to complete the skill set pattern begun with Cavil (Tactics), Six (Leadership) and Leoben (Politics).

I think her OPT is balanced. While it's complex in its wording, I think it's easy enough to "grok" ("Oh, she can fly a viper for either team, whether infiltrating or not: Got it."). Using destroyed vipers only when not infiltrating allows a bright line to be drawn between "Cylon" vipers and normal vipers, ensuring she isn't doing silly things like stealing vipers from the Reserves while obviously a Cylon.

I do keep coming back to the OPG: I mean, it simply has to be Cylon Virus, but I don't want to make it too powerful (and I want to balance both the pro-human and pro-Cylon sides).

I simply love the weakness: It plays with Agendas in a novel way, and creates a relationship between two players that is both flavorful and fun: They're BOTH bound to each other, both invested in the other's success. Yes, this could be very rough on the chosen player, but that player gains a devoted CL ally and bigger chunk of the spotlight to make up for it.


D'ANNA
Lastly, I'd tentatively suggest a change to D'Anna's skill set---not only to help differentiate her from Doral, but because I think this might be more appropriate in general:

Cylon Leader
1 Leadership/1 Treachery
(replacing 1 Politics/1 Engineering)

I suggest this change for two reasons: First, I think Treachery is very appropriate to D'Anna---she betrayed both sides on multiple occasions, making her among the most treacherous of the Cylons; it would feel odd if D'Anna were the only CL without Treachery in her skill set. Second, D'Annas were quite often shown in positions of Leadership (at least until Treachery brought about their downfall): I'd say D'Anna is the second most authoritative model after Cavil, far more accustomed to giving orders than to behind-the-scenes subtlety, which strikes me as more of a Leoben/Doral thing.

Gah, this got long, I do apologize. As I said at the outset, I realize this post has the potential to hijack your whole thread, so I'll happily blank it (and move it to its own thread, for more general discussion) if you'd rather not add a crop of new Cylon Leaders to Daybreak's ranks.
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Mooseared Ferenczy
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Quick thoughts:
Bureaucracy seems a tad OP given it can happen any and every turn and he can draw 3 treachery/turn easily 3-4(1 from drawback, 1 extra from infiltration draw, 2 from CP from politics draw/2 from draw while infiltrating, 1 from infiltrating drawback). Admittedly all of that requires infiltration. Plus side is that it can do some heavy hinting at agenda w/o obvious statement.
Simon's draw combined with his OPT seems a little under powered. He seems like a more limited in power Cap 6. I do like that he increase discussion among other players. Also, like the OPG.
Sharon's opt seems bad. She is a CL that can pilot. Yay? That means she will never see any use of her OPT unless she infiltrates, and I've played several CL games where I don't spend valuable turns infiltrating, or where the humans don't trust me enough to XO me. The OPG is alirght, but situational. There are agendas that don't need cylon ship activations (barring being the given choice of victory for the cylons, shifting the plans for the team CL has to win with). The OPG doesn't unhose Sharon if she has salvage equipment and the cylons are trying to win by damage.
In short, her abilities all seem situation at best.
Also, for her drawback, do both agenda come from the same deck? I assume so, but I must check. Love the drawback.
 
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Daniel Loke
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I wrote a session report! My second one ever.

Daybreak or Brutality? And a bonus asinine scenario
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David F
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I'm replying on this thread after entering from schmloof's session report.

=================

What's up with Billy's OPG?? That isn't true to the show at all. We're talking about his last scene, right?

If you're going the what-if route, far better to put that OPG on Cottle!

=================

Always cool to see how the Treachery fix is doing. Is this brutal mainly because of the Treachery rules?

Don't make Destiny with Treachery, but give players 1 at start of Sleeper too: that's brilliant and thematic! And lowers the difficulty a little for humans instead of making Destiny with Treachery.

When I did this, my concern was humans would just go Airlock somebody early with their Treachery cards, since early execution is pretty good. Is this a concern? Though in the 2 PBF games I modded, the cylon didn't realize this and soft-revealed way too early for my tastes.

Do you have any card-fixes I could print? I've been printing up these cards and putting them at the appropriate places on the board as 'rules errata', but my graphics skills aren't very good.





=====================

Last thing, I don't like the thought of using Billy, Seelix etc, the minors of the minors, and I bet FFG agrees if they design another expansion. I'd much rather people be designing 'B' versions of all the main characters, or 'cylon' versions (when they turn cylon). The only character I miss is Kendra, and even then, I wouldn't care if I hadn't watched the steaming pile that was Razor. I miss D'Anna too, but refuse to play the Cylon Leader RAW anyway.
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Daniel Loke
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The Billy thing bothered me, too. But it's not my expansion

@Eunomiacs CLs: I can also move this to another thread if mark wants to kick us out.

Doral:

Beauracrracy screw spell check: Always on? I think it'd be OK for normal games but with Treacherous Destiny, it may be a tad powerful, especially with his OPG being very powerful as well.

I like the theme of Sycophant, but I have major concern over the prospect of matching priorities. Perhaps something like, "the player with most cards in hand"? which is fairly clunky, too, though.

Simon:

Oh OK, you're going pretty heavy with the hand manipulation here. One of the things I liked about BSG was the fact that there was very little hand manipulation. It's clunky and it makes it easier to detect Cylons.

Vivisection is hilarious and thematic and I would love to play it.

I agree with the sentiment that his drawback is balanced yet annoying.

Maybe give him a 2-card draw, then making Invasive Surgery "Whenever a player is sent to sickbay or res ship, (effect effect)"

Sharon:

Cylon Viper Pilot: Far too clunky for my tastes. I propose something entirely different: "Whenever (Basestars launch activation), you may immediately launch into a viper. You may even do this while on a Cylon location, in which case you must launch in the same Sector as a basestar. You may choose to have activated raiders ignore your viper, and you may fire on other vipers and civilian ships. If you are still in space when the fleet jumps, you may move to Cylon Fleet OR the Hangar Deck."

Cylon Virus seems too powerful to me. Perhaps, "Immediately before Cylon ships of one type are activated, you may move all of those ships one sector, then you may destroy all Cylon ships in the same sector as a viper."

I'd like to try her drawback before commenting on it.

D'Anna: I'd give her 1 LEA/POL, 1 TRE/ENG, and an entirely different OPT.
 
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Mark L
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Revealed Cylons cannot ignore Final Five discard effects.
 
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Couple of my questions/propositions:

Roslin
Terminal Ilness: I see why you changed this weakness but I wonder if making her discard 1 card after location activation will do the trick. If it is too weak maybe just change it so that she has to go to "ambulatorium" after fleet jump, no option to avoid it.

Tom Zarek
Unconventional Tactics: Ok, you can use this OPT only in your own turn, this ability only interacts with Skill Check Crisis Cards which are not in majority with 2 expansions on board. Clearly this isn't that strong ability as it might seem at first glance.
--
My propostions here:
1 population loss for negating any resource loss on the Crisis Card on your turn (no matter if it's Skill Check or "choosing" Crisis)

Friends in Low Places: Well, the only concern about this card is about this "double strength" thing. In my opinion it is just unnatural to this game mechanic I would remove double strength of cards and remove limit of 3 cards so you could add as many cards as you want after the result of check was determined. I strongly consider if adding "Brig" and "Airlock" locations isn't the right thing to do on this "badass" ability.

Tory Foster
Influential: Why not changing it so you can put any amount of cards on top or bottom of Quorum deck? I guess this will not make this skill broken. What do you think?

Amoral: Well, it's maybe a minor issue but I think Tory should pick always first option on "choosing" Crisis Cards on her turn, even if she's President or Admiral.

Cain
I must say, I really like what you did with this character ability, especially with her OPG! Good work there

William Adama
Inspirational Leader: At first I liked this ability very much, then acctual play showed it's not that great. Here is why. If you are a Cylon, you can't use this ability at all or you will insta "soft reveal". As a human, you will not have option to use this ability often. You will be very lucky if you use it once per game. 2 expansions and there aren't that many Skill Check Crisis Cards and even if you draw one, majority of those cards already have leadership counted as positive strength. To be honest, orignal OPT was better

Command Authority: Same story here If you are a Cylon and take all cards, even Treachery you "soft reveal" yourself. It only works if you are a human and don't want to take those nasty Treachery cards. Well, in my opinion I prefer Cylon favored OPG, cause Adama doesn't have any other way to hurt people. Only option he has is Admiral destination manipulation But this is not enough in my opinion, especially if Cain is in play. Let's give the old man some Cylon love

Emotionally Attached: No idea why to change this drawback. Old one was good enough. Adding there "Airlock" makes it fine in my opinion. Anyway, if you really want to change it, at least make it something else than discarding cards. There are too many discard abilities in game already

Saul Tigh
Overall, I like Chiefs OPG as Tigh OPG, it just fits better here. Old one was strong, but rarely used in real play.

Helo
Eco Officer: I'm strongly considering if his OPT should not affect FTL, casue I simply don't see logic behind this. I have no problems with using it on other locations (which all are military anyway) or Crisis Cards.

Cylon Sympathiser: I like the concept, but I'm not convinced it's really good weakness. I played games where nobody was thrown into the Brig. How about changing it that if there is a revealed Cylon in play Helo can draw only 4 cards on his turn? It's almost the same as you proposed, but 100% chance it will happen at some point in game

Gaeta
Amputee: I have mixed feelings about this one. I see why you put Treachery card draw here, but his OPG already help Cylons enough, we don't have to boost him further with weakness I have crazy idea of making him able to put only 2 cards into skill checks but be able to use orginal OPT ability, making it cleary that it is once per turn by the way, so no XO someone to abuse this skill.

Starbuck
I like clarification on OPT and new weakness. Makes sense and tone down this character a little.

Chief
Maintenance Engineer: Not sure why this change? Was his old OPT overpowered? Would like to hear you opinion on that, cause I don't see the point of changing it.

The Blackbird: I really like the idea about Blackbird! Then again, don't know what to think about your execution of this ability. Part about ships is just like weaker Cain OPG or Nuke without a die roll. Second option is clearly designed for Cylon in mind but I don't see how it fits this character? It works on Roslin and Starbuck, but on Chief?
--
My proposition:
"Action: Destroy 1 viper. Discard and ignore all effects except "launch preparation icon" on next drawn Crisis Card OR on next Cris Card draw phase there are drawn 2 cards instead of 1.

Cally
Discharge of a Firearm: I would go one step further and make those 2 cards discarded at random.
 
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Mark L
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Thank you for the comments. My happiness with the characters varies quite a lot, and you have highlighted most of the characters who I am unsatisfied with, namely Zarek, Adama, Gaeta and Cally. I do plan on changing these characters if I get good ideas.

Chief's old OPT is balanced, but too overtly pro-human (much like Gaeta's original FTL reroll). Characters should not be subject to random loyalty tests every time you draw your cards/when the fleet jumps, as it makes for a frustrating hidden Cylon experience. How often can you claim to have no Repair cards before people start eyeing you suspiciously?

Chief's new OPT is efficient as human (XO to Repair and immediately activate the location, can get out of Sickbay) but is also good as a Cylon. The OPG is still being tested, but I like it so far. The Crisis scouting is so he can use it as a Cylon, yes.
 
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Mindy G
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And it fits his character since he did build it after all.
 
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Adria D
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I've started thinking that D'Anna's character is too powerful. It was seeing Neil post something along the lines of "your cards have been sent - [skill cards] and crisis card" that made it click.

She gets a free crisis scout (Boomer's OPT) and gets any skill card she wants after seeing the crisis (Baltar's OPT). I don't think she has anywhere close to a big enough drawback to balance that. In fact, so far, her drawback as been completely inconsequential.

I think making her OPT a movement instead of an automatic thing would go a long way to bringing her in line with the other CLs.
 
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Mark L
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She doesn't get to bury the Crisis; just look at it. If she wants to bury it, she has to waste her action on the Human Fleet/Launch Scout. I also wouldn't call her drawback totally inconsequential. It does mean she has to play really carefully when being hostile, as she suffers from being Brigged/Airlocked/blown up on the Bridge far more than the other CLs.

However, I do think that a pro-human D'Anna might be a bit overpowered in relation to the other CLs. Whether this means that the other CLs have to be buffed, or D'Anna needs to be nerfed is a different question I'm still pondering.

However, given that she needs to be nerfed, I plan on making her drawback harsher rather than changing her OPT. Her skill draw could also be made harsher for a pro-human D'Anna (i.e. making it Engineering/Treachery)
 
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Mindy G
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Mark, what's Helo's new starting location?
 
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Ryan West
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markino wrote:
Whether this means that the other CLs have to be buffed, or D'Anna needs to be nerfed is a different question I'm still pondering.

I've done quite a lot of thinking/experimenting with CL's for my own variant plans, and my opinion here definitely supports the former: Cylon Leaders need better tools to help them meet their Agenda objectives in the mere ~5 turns available to them.

This wouldn't necessarily be true if Agenda objectives were more receptive to social manipulation (e.g. "Brig the President" vs. "manipulate these resource totals"), or even if they were more flexible (the "X is greater than Y" format of Razor Cut's objectives were great on this point, allowing the CL to play with X or Y). I suspect nerfing one CL will be easier than buffing all the rest, so nerfing D'Anna while also looking at the Agendas in general may present another angle of attack.
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Daniel Loke
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Quote:

Inspirational Leader: When you draw a Crisis Card, all players with two or less Skill Cards in their hands may draw a Skill Card.
Command Authority: Once per game, after a skill check has been resolved, you may take any or all Skill Cards used for the check into your hand instead of discarding them.
Emotionally Attached: You may not activate the "Admiral's Quarters" or "Airlock" locations.


(a) Does Inspirational Leader work for revealed Cylons? Or is it all human players?

(b) Command Authority: This change screws over a Cylon Adama, effectively forcing him to soft reveal if he wants to grab Treachery. What do you think about something like, "If there are more than two/three Treachery in the Skill Check, you may discard them without penalty until there are two/three remaining. Then, take all the cards into your hand."

This way he gets a minimum of two/three Treachery which is OK for an unrevealed Cylon and manageable for a human.
 
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Mooseared Ferenczy
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schmloof wrote:
Quote:

Inspirational Leader: When you draw a Crisis Card, all players with two or less Skill Cards in their hands may draw a Skill Card.
Command Authority: Once per game, after a skill check has been resolved, you may take any or all Skill Cards used for the check into your hand instead of discarding them.
Emotionally Attached: You may not activate the "Admiral's Quarters" or "Airlock" locations.


(a) Does Inspirational Leader work for revealed Cylons? Or is it all human players?

(b) Command Authority: This change screws over a Cylon Adama, effectively forcing him to soft reveal if he wants to grab Treachery. What do you think about something like, "If there are more than two/three Treachery in the Skill Check, you may discard them without penalty until there are two/three remaining. Then, take all the cards into your hand."

I get your issue in theory, but how often have you seen a cylon Adama use his OPG without soft revealing? Saying he can't take the treachery into his hand without soft revealing doesn't really help if he is waiting for a check with piloting to come to collect a lot of spikes.

This way he gets a minimum of two/three Treachery which is OK for an unrevealed Cylon and manageable for a human.
 
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V Mars
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Im new here, so sorry if this has already been answered. Is there a file that contains the latest version with all rules, characters etc for this expansion?
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Daniel Loke
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For my own record-keeping purposes, I need a symbol for Daybreak, a la a mini-Pegasus for Pegasus and the mini-basestar for Exodus. Go on, I'm waiting.
 
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Colley wrote:
Im new here, so sorry if this has already been answered. Is there a file that contains the latest version with all rules, characters etc for this expansion?


The first post should always have the latest info, but there is no file.
 
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Mark L
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Colley wrote:
Im new here, so sorry if this has already been answered. Is there a file that contains the latest version with all rules, characters etc for this expansion?

You mean a PDF? Not at the moment, things change too fast. Maybe when a stable version is done, which should be soon.

schmloof wrote:
For my own record-keeping purposes, I need a symbol for Daybreak, a la a mini-Pegasus for Pegasus and the mini-basestar for Exodus. Go on, I'm waiting.

Someone make it for me, I don't care.
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Mindy G
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A tiny sunrise

I'll try making something when I get home
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Mooseared Ferenczy
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markino wrote:

schmloof wrote:
For my own record-keeping purposes, I need a symbol for Daybreak, a la a mini-Pegasus for Pegasus and the mini-basestar for Exodus. Go on, I'm waiting.

Someone make it for me, I don't care.

Maybe a small silhouette of Earth?
 
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oriecat wrote:
A tiny sunrise

I'll try making something when I get home

I approve of this.
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