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Battlestar Galactica: Exodus Expansion» Forums » Variants

Subject: The Daybreak mini-expansion - Now in Beta phase rss

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Allan Clements
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Turns out Esseb did touch the flag. Don't tell him I said so though.
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I can see why people don't like Cally as printed, but she is fine as is, it changes the way play. All characters change the way you play the game, just Cally is a bit more obvious than others. e.g. if Baltar is in the game, you risk having your loyalty cards looked at, if Boomer is in the game, you have to consider her abilitiy when choosing to try a costly skill check. Executing a character is often worse than most OPG, but a lot of people see exection as much worse than it is.

Soft reveal still works fine as revealing outside of your turn through execution is often more useful than wasting your turn. She can also be convinced to shoot the wrong people which is always fun.

Political Prowess does suck though since it can end up with anyone. I have considered just removing it rather than trying to change it (and remove some of the zeros to compensate) so that people don't have to be told about the new change.
 
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Ryan West
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Cally's OPG.

angry

Kill it.

Kill it with fire.
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Ryan West
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... Okay, to elaborate just a bit:

Kamakaze wrote:
All characters change the way you play the game, just Cally is a bit more obvious than others.

No. Cally isn't "a bit more obvious than the others"; Cally is a lot more "there's-no-way-to-defend-yourself-or-work-around-her" than the others.

If you're a Cylon and you're playing against Baltar, you just need to be ready to accuse him right back if he OPG's you.

You can't execute Cally right back.

If you're playing against a Cylon-Boomer, you can---as you point out---take her OPG into account when assessing the relative risk of a skill check.

You can't account for the "risk" of Cally's OPG, because it's a complete wild card over which she has complete control.

Aside from the negation of autonomy that Cally's OPG represents to every other player, there's also the plain idiocy of the fact that the one OPG execution ability appears on, of all people, CALLY.

Because Cally shot someone at point-blank range---once, while they were unarmed and restrained---she is more lethal than Cain, Cavil, or Zarek.

Cally should have no relation to executions whatsoever: It was an error to design her character otherwise.


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Mark L
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Through the Walls: Action: Once per game, look at one random Loyalty card of up to two players in the same location. You may then send one of these players to "Sickbay".

Cally examining Loyalty cards hahaha
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Ryan West
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Yes Yes YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!

 
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Daniel Loke
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BUT MY DREAMS THEY AREN'T AS EMPTY
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How about a thematic addendum? "Do not trigger any Final Five effects"?

I've always wanted something that could do this but I could never find a character to apply it to.
 
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Allan Clements
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Eunomiac wrote:
... Okay, to elaborate just a bit:

Kamakaze wrote:
All characters change the way you play the game, just Cally is a bit more obvious than others.

No. Cally isn't "a bit more obvious than the others"; Cally is a lot more "there's-no-way-to-defend-yourself-or-work-around-her" than the others.



If you "soft" reveal so that Cally has time to spend an action moving to you and shooting you, then you are bad at the game.

Yes there are some cases where you are exposed outside of your control, and she may have a free shot at you before your turn, but that is no different than getting an arrest order played on you (which is much worse than being executed)

If the cylon fleet is heavily active on the board, and Cally's turn is just before yours, doing bad stuff and getting her to waste her turn executing you, means you get to take Cylon actions right away. You lose cards and your super crisis (which is just going to be The Farm), but you shouldn't be trying to hoard cards with the threat of Cally anyway.

Now I do somewhat agree about the thematic reason for Cally being able to execute is bad. If you just imagine that the person she shoots did something horrible to warrant being shot, it doesn't seem too bad.
 
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Robert Stewart
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I played a game where I had the "reduce the jump track" reveal power, but Cain was on-board, so I had no way to take advantage of my reveal power while she still had her OPG...

Cally's OPG means she can limit Cylon soft-reveal opportunities, but it also makes her the primary target for Cylon soft-reveals - okay, taking an opportunity to take out Cally may not be the optimum soft-reveal for the Cylon, but it's even worse for Cally...
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Ryan West
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schmloof wrote:
How about a thematic addendum? "Do not trigger any Final Five effects"?

Cally did trigger a Final Five effect in the show ("Whoever examines this card is executed"). I'd even bet that Cally vs. Tory in the airlock was the primary inspiration for the Final Five card mechanic.
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Daniel Loke
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BUT MY DREAMS THEY AREN'T AS EMPTY
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Ah, right. I'd forgotten she got caught.
 
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Ryan West
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schmloof wrote:
Ah, right. I'd forgotten she got caught.

Actually, now that I think of it, Tory was also hit by a (belated) Final Five effect: "If anyone examines this card, you are executed."
 
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Ryan West
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Kamakaze wrote:
If you "soft" reveal so that Cally has time to spend an action moving to you and shooting you, then you are bad at the game.

If "Cally's OPG negates soft reveals" were my take-away, I would love her OPG, not want to kill it with fire: I hate soft reveals. I think they are stupid and unthematic and I'm working on a variant that will let the Admiral brig people as an interrupt. So that's not it.

Kamakaze wrote:
Yes there are some cases where you are exposed outside of your control, and she may have a free shot at you before your turn, but that is no different than getting an arrest order played on you (which is much worse than being executed)

The closest President/Quorum comparison would be if, at the beginning of every game, the President automatically started with "Arrest Order" and "Execute Prisoner" in the Quorum Hand. Even then, the President couldn't execute someone in a single turn without help or Critical Situation.

Regarding your parenthetical, I disagree. But let's pretend I don't: The President only has a chance of drawing "Arrest Order", not to mention the differences in trust/social play in your scenario (e.g. a Cylon President has more reason to remain covert than a Cylon Cally; conversely, it's easier to heap mistrust on a human President from the Brig, than as a Revealed Cylon post-execution).

The problem with Cally's ability is that it makes a devastating attack against a single player a certain success over which Cally has complete control. There is no interactivity, no defense, no evasion: When Cally gets you in her sights, you will die, and you will lose your entire hand. If you're Cylon, you will lose your cover, too, as well as your Super Crisis Card. If you're human, you will lose your favorite character, you will lose the trust you've gained when you draw another Loyalty Card, and you will lose a point of Morale. And there is nothing—NOTHING—you or anyone else can do about it.

BSG is a game of interactivity and social play: "Cally moves to Command and executes the Admiral" is not interactive. Her OPG is an unstoppable force in a game with no immovable objects.

Kamakaze wrote:
If the cylon fleet is heavily active on the board, and Cally's turn is just before yours, doing bad stuff and getting her to waste her turn executing you, means you get to take Cylon actions right away. You lose cards and your super crisis (which is just going to be The Farm), but you shouldn't be trying to hoard cards with the threat of Cally anyway.

This is a great example of the insidious effect Cally's presence has on the game. Look at the vast power of her OPG, even when—especially when, perhaps—it isn't being used:

- Using a single Action to strip a covert Cylon of his hand, his Super Crisis, and his freedom to cause soft-revealed mayhem would be, by Cally standards, to "waste her turn"
- The mere presence of Cally deters saving Skill Cards, since she'll just make you lose them all anyways. Her mere presence imposes a chilling effect across the entirety of a core game mechanic.

And the above applies in a scenario you specifically crafted to make Cally's OPG as inefficient as possible.

Kamakaze wrote:
Now I do somewhat agree about the thematic reason for Cally being able to execute is bad. If you just imagine that the person she shoots did something horrible to warrant being shot, it doesn't seem too bad.

Whether or not Cally's victim is deserving is irrelevant: Cally is not a ruthless executioner, but that's who she plays like. She strikes more fear into other players than Cain, for Gods' sake (and I'm still not clear on where she even got the only firearm in the game).

rmsgrey wrote:
. . . but it also makes her the primary target for Cylon soft-reveals - okay, taking an opportunity to take out Cally may not be the optimum soft-reveal for the Cylon, but it's even worse for Cally...

Yet another example of Cally warping the metagame: The options available to other players (covert Cylons, in this case) are limited to "target Cally, or don't soft-reveal". Why? Because there's nothing else they can do. At the very least, they should also have some option to play around or defend against Cally's OPG.

Parallels can be drawn between Cally's OPG and others, of course: Leoben's OPG also targets a specific player; Adama's OPG can't be prevented either; and Cain too has power over executions. But only Cally combines all three (targeting one person; no way to prevent it; result = execution), and this is why her OPG must be killed with fire.

Well, one of the reasons it must be killed with fire. I'm actually not sure what gets me more about this ability: its mechanical effect on the game, or the utter absurdity of its theme. I honestly don't know how I would feel if, for example, Cally's OPG were given to Cain. It would be infinitely more thematic, but all of the gameplay issues would still be there.
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Mindy G
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You know, Ryan, I've never really minded it before, but you've convinced me!
 
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Allan Clements
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Well I still think you are overrating Execution.

The airlock hardly sees any use at all, it almost always better to brig someone.

Losing all their cards can be bad, but they will just throw them into a skill check before Cally shoots them. I am presuming they are doing this anyway if they have "soft-revealed"

So assuming they in fact have 2 or 3 cards in their hand when Cally shoots them, they lose 3 cards and their super crisis.

Good for you: Reveal outside of your turn + 1 human action spent
vs
Bad for you: Lose 2 or 3 cards + lose super crisis card (+ possibly losing reveal power, but they would have probably brigged you if not for Cally)

Hardly overpowered. Adama's OPG gives a much larger card advantage versus executing a player, but no one runs around screaming how that ruins the game.

Cally can of course also shoot the wrong person, either intentionally or just get who the cylon is wrong.

Give me Boomer's OPG any day over Cally's. Far more game changing, has saved the day many times.

 
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Mark L
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Formally changed Cally's OPG, nerfed Star Player slightly and removed the hand size change for revealed Cylons. I don't foresee many changes in the near future, except maybe if Adama's OPT still sucks.
 
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Ryan West
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And there was much rejoicing! I love Through The Walls. You might be able to make sending someone to the "Brig" balanced, if you require at least two other people be at her location (lets Cylons try to dance their way out of being checked).

Regarding Adama, some random ideas in case his OPT does need replacing (honestly don't know where they're coming from—my brain, or somewhere I read it... which I suppose would still be coming from my "brain", technically, at this current moment, I mean, not... oh! I'm rambling!):

- Whenever he plays XO for its text ability, he chooses a Skill type. Both Adama and the target of his XO draw one card of that type. (This represents the efficiency of his inspirational leadership, and helps a Cylon Adama who—despite having to hand out XO's all the time—gains an excuse to draw some off-color spikes.)
- As an Action, he may discard an XO Skill Card to activate a location he doesn't occupy, even from the Brig (inspirational leaders always have loyal followers). (This makes him a tempting target for the XO's of others.)
- ... maybe something similar to Zarek's OPT, except dealing with Morale? He's great at giving speeches.
- ... an "always on" ability that is in effect while he occupies Command?
- ... the ability to modify skill check colors, especially Leadership, possibly choosing whether it's positive or negative for skill checks on his turn? Maybe a bonus applies if he makes it negative (or a penalty if he makes it positive), so that Cylon Adama has room to maneuver.

Yeah, the problem with Adama is figuring out a good OPT that doesn't suck if you're a Cylon.
 
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Allan Clements
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With Cally's new OPG you should probably fix the rest of her character for now having a worse version of Baltars OPG.

And changing it to brigging would make it more powerful than executing and I don't recall Cally sending someone to the brig in the show.

The games with Cally shooting Tory have been some of the best games I have had, so I don't see myself ever changing it
 
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Mark L
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So, Adama is still pants.

Inspirational Leader: When you draw a Crisis card on your turn, all human players with 3 or fewer Skill Cards in their hands draw a Skill Card of your choice. If 2 or more Skill Cards were drawn in this way, draw a Leadership Skill Card.
 
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Mindy G
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Is pants a bad thing? Because I've always kinda liked pants.

I like the change though!
 
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Mooseared Ferenczy
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I...like it? I guess. It seems a bit powerful, but he also gets a significant reduction in power because Helena Cain is poorly designed, so he needs something.
 
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Ryan West
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j0frenzy wrote:
I...like it? I guess. It seems a bit powerful, but he also gets a significant reduction in power because Helena Cain is poorly designed, so he needs something.

There are a few characters I think could stand to rise a few tiers in power, given their prominence in the series, and Adama is clearly on top of that list! I'd actually like to see a real game-changing OPT on him, one that makes players truly feel his presence in a game.

I definitely like that one, Mark; would love to see it in testing. It's a shame that it can't really work in Cylon-Adama's favor without a soft-reveal, though.

Other semi-formed ideas I've had for Adama, just as fodder for thought:

- letting him play Leadership cards as if they had the text ability of any Leadership card of the same strength (alas, this would be awesome for any skill type other than Leadership, since the Pegasus Leadership cards are terrible. And, with his 3 Leadership draw, this is probably overkill. But I love the idea of somehow making him the "master of the Leadership deck" in a way that hasn't been done before.)
- deciding whether Leadership is positive or negative for any skill checks made on his turn (I've seen this somewhere else)
- (OPT) Movement: Discard a Leadership card to activate a non-hazardous Galactica location of your choice (you do not have to occupy the location). You must be at a Galactica location to use this ability.
- (Weakness) You must discard an extra Skill Card when moving to any ship other than Galactica.
 
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Jasper Hawk
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Eunomiac wrote:
- deciding whether Leadership is positive or negative for any skill checks made on his turn (I've seen this somewhere else)


This one's about as bad as Gaeta's OPT, in my opinion. If a Skill Check comes up on his turn for which Leadership is negative, it's a Loyalty check. I like the idea of flipping Adama's abilities the way Zarek's got flipped, and did so for V38 (actually, I cribbed a lot from Mark's work on V38, and forgot to give credit. My very sincere apologies, Mark). It was overpowered there, so I toned it down by making the draw random. It might still be overpowered, I haven't used it in the new form yet.

Command Authority: On your turn, after resolving a Skill Check, shuffle the cards that were played into the check and draw one into your hand, then discard the rest as normal.
Inspirational Leader: Once per game, before making a Skill Check, you may double the value of all Leadership cards played into the Skill Check.
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Mindy G
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Reminder that Seelix still needs to be reworded:
Avionics Specialist: If you start your turn in the "Hangar Deck" location, you may take an Action during your Movement step.
 
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Mindy G
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Jasperhawk wrote:

Command Authority: On your turn, after resolving a Skill Check, shuffle the cards that were played into the check and draw one into your hand, then discard the rest as normal.
Inspirational Leader: Once per game, before making a Skill Check, you may double the value of all Leadership cards played into the Skill Check.


I like those! A LOT.
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Mark L
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So do I. I might make the OPG more like Blind Devotion, so you don't soft-reveal before cards are put in. I'll think about it.
 
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