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Small World Underground» Forums » General

Subject: Isn't Vengeful too weak to give only 4 units? rss

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Nikolas Moore
Australia
Toowong
Queensland
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According to the Small World rules, if you are a Vengeful race then in subsequent turns for anyone who attacks you, you can attack any of their races with one fewer of your own than usual in the next turn only. This looks incredibly weak given that Commando gives the same number of units (4) and is -1 to conquer ANY region. Therefore, Commando is strictly superior to Vengeful and is far, far better because it will work on empty regions, which Vengeful never does. Vengeful will also never give you an advantage on your first turn of conquests, and will also be useless if your opponents choose not to attack you.

I can't see why on earth you only get 4 units on this one, when for many others that seem better, you get 5. (It is most similar to Mounted, which gives -1 attack on some regions and gives you 5 units.) Surely to be fair, you should get 5 units with this special ability, or it should be powered up so that you can attack enemies who have attacked you at -2 instead of -1.

EDIT: I probably didn't need to post this as there are existing threads such as: Why does Vengeful suck so bad comapred to Commando? Still, this is one I'd definitely house rule (to give 5 units instead of 4) along with Vanishing (leave an existing in-decline race on the board if you vanish a race, which was my assumptiong until I read the FAQs) to make these two powers similarly value to the other ones, instead of being hopelessly weak. The powers/races in original Small World seem much better balanced except for Dwarfs (too weak).
 
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Kevin Riddle

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of course Commando may not be available so Vengeful may be the best option ...
 
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Andrew Brown
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This ability only being activated when opponents attack you has an interesting side effect. Players will think twice about attacking you on their turn because they know that attacking you will likely get them attacked on the next turn.

Whereas Commando will draw attention because you are a dangerous attacking force and weakly defended (presumably more spread out with fewer units on each region), Vengeful seems to deter invasion. Therefore it has s defensive capability that Commando doesn't offer. Don't know if this makes it as valuable as Commando or not, but it is an interesting point to consider.
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Aaron Bohm
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Appleton
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People contend "weaker"/"stronger" point values vs. powers all the time and I always think the same thing:

"Weaker" abilities will get passed up more, giving them a bigger VP pile if you pick them and therefore increasing their "power" whereas powerful abilities almost never give you additional VPs. Which power to pick and when is 75% of the strategy of the game.

Or in other words...

Small World was designed to have asymetrically unbalanced powers which, ironically, help to balance gameplay.

Honestly, I think it would be interesting to play a game with the exact same powers but with 2 less race points mixed in with the regular power tokens.

The only argument one might have is that the luck of the game is that there is a tendency for the right power to become available at the right time for a player, increasing his chances at doing well (completely unrelated to how skillfully he or she might be playing the game).
 
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Lars Wagner Hansen
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Just compare Vengefull to Cursed, and see which one is the most powefull!

Will you still complain about Vengefull?
 
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Jeff Dunford
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l-hansen wrote:
Just compare Vengefull to Cursed, and see which one is the most powefull!

Will you still complain about Vengefull?


Cursed is overpowered. Twice now, we've had a player get both "Cursed _____" and "_____ Dwarves" over the course of a game and end up winning. How? Everyone teams up on the perceived leader(s) while the player with weaker races and powers slips under the radar. When it comes time to count coins, other players are shocked at how many VPs that player raked in... many of which were sitting on the race/power combos when they were chosen (and came directly out of the other players' stashes).

Back on topic... Small World races and powers are self-balancing since weaker powers get skipped and the VPs pile up. For instance, late in a game, Cursed Dwarves with 9 coins can be better than Wealthy Skeletons (especially if you must pay 3 VPs to skip the Dwarves and take the Skeletons). In fact, if all race/power combos were equal in all circumstances, everyone would always choose the first (free) one. That would take away a big part of the game.

So the question is: At what point in a game is it worth taking "Vengeful _____" - factoring in the number of VP coins on it, the current board state, the political situation, the number of rounds remaining, the other race/power combos available, and how many coins it will cost to get (and which other race/power combos become more attractive as a result)?
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Aaron Bohm
United States
Appleton
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And for this reason, some moderately powerful abilities, like Vengeful, are not necessarily worth paying to skip either. They may not be the best, but it's better than a 2 vp swing.
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Nicholas Pham
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I have a two different house rules that I thought up.

1. One conquest you make against a player with a vengeance token may be done with 2 tokens.

2. Place a vengeance token on your conquered regions. That region takes -2 to capture, all other regions follow the normal rules.


The second one power allows for more counterplay, but I rather like the first because I'm kind of a fan of how the Dragon Master ability can totally change how you try to defend this variant has the same kind of flavor.
 
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