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Subject: Monster/minion AND peril: Sauron choose or both occur? rss

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Joe Waller
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When a hero moves into a perilous location with a monster or minion does the Sauron player have to choose between fighting and peril cards or do both occur?
 
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Ian Kelly
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jwallerrocks wrote:
When a hero moves into a perilous location with a monster or minion does the Sauron player have to choose between fighting and peril cards or do both occur?


As stated in the rules, Sauron has to choose combat or peril, not both.
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mak
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Sauron must always choose between combat or peril but if he chooses peril then its up to the hero whether he will fight the minion/monster or not.
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Joe Waller
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Thanks to you both. I'm hosting my first game of it tomorrow night and hashing out the rules. I thought this was the answer but thought I would make sure.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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Makis mou wrote:
Sauron must always choose between combat or peril but if he chooses peril then its up to the hero whether he will fight the minion/monster or not.


Of course, as we discussed this in another thread, you won't find this anywhere in the rules.
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mak
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Dam the Man wrote:
Makis mou wrote:
Sauron must always choose between combat or peril but if he chooses peril then its up to the hero whether he will fight the minion/monster or not.


Of course, as we discussed this in another thread, you won't find this anywhere in the rules.


Man, you are persistent...
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Rauli Kettunen
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When answering rules questions, to me it's best to go with RAW. That way you can actually quote the rules or point out the page with the relevant information.
 
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Joe Waller
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I did a rules search before posting and didn't see find another thread on this topic. Link?

What is RAW?
 
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Chris K.
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"R"ules "A"s "W"ritten
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mak
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jwallerrocks wrote:
I did a rules search before posting and didn't see find another thread on this topic. Link?

What is RAW?

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/841610/the-abstract-of-7...
Check the comments and decide for yourself.
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Ian Kelly
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Thanks for the link. I don't really get that ruling. It seems to be based on the idea that the hero can repeat the travel step without moving (which AFAICT is not allowed), but even if it were allowed, what's to stop Sauron from just picking Peril over and over again?
 
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Ian Kelly
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Also, what does this ruling imply for the related situation where there are multiple monsters/minions in the same space? If the hero defeats one, is he then allowed to fight another one, until the space runs out of monsters/minions or he fails to defeat one?
 
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Joe Waller
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Makis mou wrote:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/841610/the-abstract-of-7...
Check the comments and decide for yourself.


Awesome discussion!
How can I go against the designer's direct response?!? Both peril and combat it is. I can say for certain though that, as Sauron, I will always choose peril. No reason not to if combat is going to happen regardless (in almost all situations; I'll attack of course if the player is almost defeated).
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GodRob
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So in this instance, the "Combat or Peril" step actually means "Combat and Peril". Seems that the "Combat but Peril" step might feel a little left out.

whistle Conjunction Junction, what's your function... whistle


While I agree with the ruling (only because it fixes the hero missions), I don't agree with how the designer contradicts the rules as written without acknowledging that the rule is wrong. The term "combat or peril" is used throughout the book. Never is it "combat and peril" or "combat and/or peril". Under that ruling, it should have been called the "Peril and Combat" step. This was discussed quite a bit both here and on the FFG forums when the game came out and no valid argument was ever made for that interpretation of the rules.

Quote:
I can say for certain though that, as Sauron, I will always choose peril. No reason not to if combat is going to happen regardless (in almost all situations; I'll attack of course if the player is almost defeated).


You're right. There's absolutely no reason to not choose peril if you can follow it up with combat.

All that said, I feel that the impossible degree of difficulty for those two hero missions has kept me from playing the game in a long time, but after reading of the designer's intent, I'm eager to play again. (I also don't like the Finale and allowing more chances for the heroes to win an Immediate Victory is OK with me.)

Robert

edit: I also have sent a message to FFG's rules questions about this issue.
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Ian Kelly
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robertg611 wrote:
You're right. There's absolutely no reason to not choose peril if you can follow it up with combat.


Except that following up with combat is the hero's option, not Sauron's, isn't it?
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mak
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Peristarkawan wrote:
robertg611 wrote:
You're right. There's absolutely no reason to not choose peril if you can follow it up with combat.


Except that following up with combat is the hero's option, not Sauron's, isn't it?

Exactly
 
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mak
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Peristarkawan wrote:
Thanks for the link. I don't really get that ruling. It seems to be based on the idea that the hero can repeat the travel step without moving (which AFAICT is not allowed), but even if it were allowed, what's to stop Sauron from just picking Peril over and over again?

Sauron can only pick Peril once, when the hero enters the location, not over and over again.
 
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mak
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Peristarkawan wrote:
Also, what does this ruling imply for the related situation where there are multiple monsters/minions in the same space? If the hero defeats one, is he then allowed to fight another one, until the space runs out of monsters/minions or he fails to defeat one?

Exactly that. Only that Sauron chooses which minion/monster the hero will fight next
 
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mak
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robertg611 wrote:
So in this instance, the "Combat or Peril" step actually means "Combat and Peril". Seems that the "Combat but Peril" step might feel a little left out.

whistle Conjunction Junction, what's your function... whistle


While I agree with the ruling (only because it fixes the hero missions), I don't agree with how the designer contradicts the rules as written without acknowledging that the rule is wrong. The term "combat or peril" is used throughout the book. Never is it "combat and peril" or "combat and/or peril". Under that ruling, it should have been called the "Peril and Combat" step. This was discussed quite a bit both here and on the FFG forums when the game came out and no valid argument was ever made for that interpretation of the rules.

I will say again that it is "Combat or Peril" only the time the Hero enters a perillous location that includes a monster/minion. After he enters then he continues his travel step and then the only option left is Combat not "Combat or Peril" (if he chooses to do combat that is, he can just move to another location). A location is only perillous when a hero enters it (of course if he encounters there he can't draw cards).
 
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Ian Kelly
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Makis mou wrote:
Sauron can only pick Peril once, when the hero enters the location, not over and over again.


Quote:
Exactly that. Only that Sauron chooses which minion/monster the hero will fight next


Quote:
I will say again that it is "Combat or Peril" only the time the Hero enters a perillous location that includes a monster/minion. After he enters then he continues his travel step and then the only option left is Combat not "Combat or Peril" (if he chooses to do combat that is, he can just move to another location). A location is only perillous when a hero enters it (of course if he encounters there he can't draw cards).


That's a lot of assertions. What are you basing these on? If there can only be one peril, then why not only one combat?
 
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mak
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Peristarkawan wrote:
Makis mou wrote:
Sauron can only pick Peril once, when the hero enters the location, not over and over again.


Quote:
Exactly that. Only that Sauron chooses which minion/monster the hero will fight next


Quote:
I will say again that it is "Combat or Peril" only the time the Hero enters a perillous location that includes a monster/minion. After he enters then he continues his travel step and then the only option left is Combat not "Combat or Peril" (if he chooses to do combat that is, he can just move to another location). A location is only perillous when a hero enters it (of course if he encounters there he can't draw cards).


That's a lot of assertions. What are you basing these on? If there can only be one peril, then why not only one combat?

Page 40 of RAW:
Travel Step: During this step, the hero is able to travel to an
adjacent location on the game board, fight enemies (plural), resolve
perilous locations, and explore as follows:
A hero may
perform this step as many times as his hand of Hero
cards allows.
And combat is a part of the Travel Step.

Page 22 of RAW:
Monster or Minion Attack: If there is a monster token or
minion in the hero’s new location, then Sauron can choose
this option. If so, he must flip over a monster token of his
choice, or choose a minion in the location


As for your question, whether Sauron can choose Combat or Peril again and again i urge you to see Corey Koniezca's answer to me in the link above. Look people, i know that the rules are not well written and you don't have to believe me when i quote the mail i got from the designer. I also understand that when you play the game in a certain way for years and then someone out of nowhere tells you that you are playing wrong is shocking. I had the same questions as you. What i did was write to the designer through FFG's official website. I got most of my answers within a week or two. If you have doubts don't believe what i say, believe the guys who made the game
 
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Ian Kelly
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Makis mou wrote:
Page 40 of RAW:
Travel Step: During this step, the hero is able to travel to an adjacent location on the game board, fight enemies (plural), resolve perilous locations, and explore as follows: A hero may perform this step as many times as his hand of Hero cards allows. And combat is a part of the Travel Step.


Right after where it says "fight enemies" (plural) it also says "resolve perilous locations" (plural). Since the latter is clearly talking about resolving peril in different locations, I think the former is also talking about fighting enemies in different locations.

Quote:
Page 22 of RAW:
Monster or Minion Attack: If there is a monster token or minion in the hero’s new location, then Sauron can choose this option. If so, he must flip over a monster token of his choice, or choose a minion in the location


Note the phrase "new location". If you're repeating the travel step without moving, it's no longer a "new" location.

Also, same page, immediately after that:
Peril: If the hero’s location is perilous, Sauron may choose this option.

So if you're going to cite that passage to argue that there can be multiple combats in one location, it logically follows that there can also be multiple perils in one location (not that I think Sauron should be able to resolve multiple perils; I just don't think the hero should be able to force multiple combats either).

Quote:
As for your question, whether Sauron can choose Combat or Peril again and again i urge you to see Corey Koniezca's answer to me in the link above.


He didn't actually say anything about how this ruling fits into the travel step, though, which is what I'm trying to clear up.

Quote:
Look people, i know that the rules are not well written and you don't have to believe me when i quote the mail i got from the designer. I also understand that when you play the game in a certain way for years and then someone out of nowhere tells you that you are playing wrong is shocking. I had the same questions as you. What i did was write to the designer through FFG's official website. I got most of my answers within a week or two. If you have doubts don't believe what i say, believe the guys who made the game


Don't worry, I already sent in my own rules questions (plural) about it. Hopefully Corey will actually give me a complete answer; usually when I send multi-part questions to FFG I just get back a single "yes". shake
 
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mak
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So what you are saying is that in order to fight 3 monsters in the same location, the only way to do that is fight one then move to another location, then return, fight the second and so on and so on... you do realize how illogical that sounds, don't you? As for the selection of monster/minion by Sauron in a battle, check out page 22 for the Ambush Step: If the current hero is on a location containing one or more
monster tokens (and/or minions), Sauron must choose one of those monster tokens (or minions) that the hero must engage in combat.
Final logical conclusion... Sauron chooses which monster/minion does combat, not the hero, in any case.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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Makis mou wrote:
Look people, i know that the rules are not well written and you don't have to believe me when i quote the mail i got from the designer. I also understand that when you play the game in a certain way for years and then someone out of nowhere tells you that you are playing wrong is shocking. I had the same questions as you. What i did was write to the designer through FFG's official website. I got most of my answers within a week or two. If you have doubts don't believe what i say, believe the guys who made the game


Personally, I have no issue with how the rules are written, never had any trouble with them, though this is also the case for most FFG games that people bitch about having obscure rules. Like Arkham Horror, MEQ is a phases game, just follow the phases and steps and you'll do fine.

No, my issue is with this BS ruling about heroes getting to choose combat, of which there isn't even a hint of mention in the rules (I'd say you won't even find it reading between the lines). I hate it when people, even if it is the designer in this case, pull shit out of their ass and claim that's how rules work, without any basis in the actual rules for it angry .
 
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Ian Kelly
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Dam the Man wrote:
No, my issue is with this BS ruling about heroes getting to choose combat, of which there isn't even a hint of mention in the rules (I'd say you won't even find it reading between the lines). I hate it when people, even if it is the designer in this case, pull shit out of their ass and claim that's how rules work, without any basis in the actual rules for it angry .


Right, that's what errata are for.
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