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Warhammer 40,000 (fifth edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Why Does 40k have a low user rating relative to the other top games? rss

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Charlie Theel
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I think cuzzle hit the nail on the head - it's just not a good game. IGOUGO is archaic at this point, the scale does not support any real sense of military tactics (why would you field tanks and APCs when the battlefield is like 100 yards relative), and it's a dice fest.

If Games Workshop didn't produce the damn finest models around and have such a strong store presence, no one would be playing their games.
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Cody Holden
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charlest wrote:
I think cuzzle hit the nail on the head - it's just not a good game. IGOUGO is archaic at this point, the scale does not support any real sense of military tactics (why would you field tanks and APCs when the battlefield is like 100 yards relative), and it's a dice fest.

If Games Workshop didn't produce the damn finest models around and have such a strong store presence, no one would be playing their games.


The Necromunda community begs to differ. cool

But yeah, you're pretty much right. Even without the dicefest thing, which is only a mark against the game for certain people, the game has a lot of problems-- not the least of which being the horrible new-hotness-driven "balancing." I mean, when you have boards like DakkaDakka running nearly equal amounts of negative and positive commentary about the game they are dedicated to, you know something's wrong.
 
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Charlie Theel
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Ah yes, I still have my Necromunda and Outlander stuff squirrelled away. We did a Campaign a few years ago and still loved it.

I wasn't really including Necromunda, Warhammer Quest, or Space Hulk when I said that

Although, those games aren't perfect either (overwatching Heavies locking down large sections of the battlefield is an issue we frequently encountered in Necromunda).
 
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Jeremy Fridy
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I still play Blood Bowl, and converted 40k forces to Necroumunda for skirmish games.

But overall, GW no longer gives me the miniatures gaming experience I wanted. After they went to 3rd edition 40k, I didn't like the game play any more, and the GW store wouldn't let me play the old edition. Also I my army was no longer playable (in 2nd edition I won tournaments with a shooty Tyranid army, but after 3rd edition, I didn't have the forces to build a legal army anymore, and refused to buy new figs to build an army that didn't reflect my strategy.)

In the end I found the game play of Miniatures games superior (Warzone in particular, and to a lesser extent Shock Force.)

I still love Space Hulk though. That was a great game, but they supported it so rarely.

3rd Edition Warhammer Epic 40,000 is still the best set of minis rules they ever wrote though. Solid game play, rewards tactics over luck, and it was fast. Good stuff... I was able to buy 2 6000 point armies for under 100 bucks each and never needed figs again (OK, I proxy imp guard tanks with A&A figs.)
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Jeremy Fridy
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charlest wrote:
Ah yes, I still have my Necromunda and Outlander stuff squirrelled away. We did a Campaign a few years ago and still loved it.

I wasn't really including Necromunda, Warhammer Quest, or Space Hulk when I said that

Although, those games aren't perfect either (overwatching Heavies locking down large sections of the battlefield is an issue we frequently encountered in Necromunda).


That just means you need more terrain!

Seriously though, if you take 2nd edition 40k (the system from the time Necormunda was released,) raise all costs by 10x, and you can play with any figs. It's great for boarding actions, just break out the Space Hulk or Doom map tiles.
 
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Matt Price
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korxonthos wrote:
So, what other miniature war-games would you guys recommend? I have read over the rules for Epic Armageddon and Battlefleet Gothic and both rules sets seemed quite solid.

I guess it's a shame that the 40k universe is so unique and diverse, and yet, the game itself is rather lacking.


Take a look at WarMachine and Hordes. Those are both excellent games that are GW's biggest rival, and the universe is rather distinct from either fantasy battle and 40K.

I'd also recommend checking out Dystopian Wars by Spartan Games. It's a smaller scale (mostly) naval action game that's lots of fun. The rules were initially dreadful, so be sure to track down the latest edition! They also have space and fantasy naval games using the same rule set, if those appeal to you more. Spartan has also just released Dystopian Legions, their 28mm wargame entry. The models are unfortunately closer to 35mm, so they look awkward next to 40K models, but they sure do look nifty. I've not tried the rules for Dystopian Legions yet.

And my new favorite is Mantic's Kings of War. Great fun, plays fast, with a focus on tactics and having a solid army, rather than a single "uber" unit. I may never go back to GW now that I've tried KoW! The rules are free (basic version) and they have a sci fi version too - haven't tried that one yet.
 
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Tim M-L
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In the Emperor's Name is good, if you want something written to use the setting and miniatures from 40K. I particularly like Song of Blades and Heroes too.
 
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Cody Holden
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korxonthos wrote:
So, what other miniature war-games would you guys recommend? I have read over the rules for Epic Armageddon and Battlefleet Gothic and both rules sets seemed quite solid.

I guess it's a shame that the 40k universe is so unique and diverse, and yet, the game itself is rather lacking.


If you like the universe, then you should check out the FFG RPG's-- Rogue Trader, Dark Heresy (1st Edition), Deathwatch, and Only War. They're pretty solid and fun, if you're into RPG's.

As for other GW stuff, most people find that any of the "Specialty Games" are much more fun than the core games.

If you're into Star Wars at all, from what I hear the X-Wing Miniatures Game is a pretty good piece of design. Dust Tactics and Warmachine have pretty good fanbases too. Dystopian Wars I've seen at the store, and it looks pretty cool.
 
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Cody Holden
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korxonthos wrote:
I wonder why the specialty games are not as promoted as the core games. Epic Armageddon actually seems like a fun game to play. Maybe because 40k constantly require their fans to pay fortunes to purchase new models, new codexes, and new rulebooks every so often just to be updated, whereas specialist games cost far less.


That ringing you hear is the nail vibrating from how hard you hit it on the head. The specialty games require a dozen or two models per player. The core games not only require more models but also require bigger, more expensive models. Thus, one new 40k player will make GW more money than an entire group deciding to start a Necromunda campaign from scratch.
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Grant Stewart
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jack of spades wrote:
That ringing you hear is the nail vibrating from how hard you hit it on the head. The specialty games require a dozen or two models per player. The core games not only require more models but also require bigger, more expensive models. Thus, one new 40k player will make GW more money than an entire group deciding to start a Necromunda campaign from scratch.


The following is conjecture;

Somewhere I can see a GW executive hiding in a corner like a cockroach saying, "That's not true...well a little bit true...okay its all true. " He then scuttles away from the light.

whistle

 
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Matt Price
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I definitely think 40K is not for dummies, but I also think there are a lot more interesting rulesets out there.

But GW makes some utterly awesome minis, and I'll happily pay the premium price for 'em even if I don't play the game that often!
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Cody Holden
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korxonthos wrote:
Well, if board gamers think that Warhammer 40k is quite mindless as a game, I would most certainly like to see such players whoop a tournament champion's ass at 40k. Come on guys, it's easy to talk the talk but until I see someone walk the walk, I'm not entirely convinced that "40k is for dummies".


Less mindless, more tedious and three or four hours too long. The 'for dummies' thing would be more based on the fact that gamers don't understand why hobbyists pay so much per model to play the game, so they assume that the cause is ignorance.

That, and the balance is horrific.
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Grant Stewart
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korxonthos wrote:
Well, if board gamers think that Warhammer 40k is quite mindless as a game, I would most certainly like to see such players whoop a tournament champion's ass at 40k. Come on guys, it's easy to talk the talk but until I see someone walk the walk, I'm not entirely convinced that "40k is for dummies".


I wouldn't call 40k mindless. I'd call it a lifestyle. I used to play and believe me it is a lifestyle.

There are a lot of board gamers who might play 40k if it wasn't a lifestyle. Most of us only have time to grab a game, get it to the table, set up and play. You can't do that with 40k.

When 40k becomes a box I can open and play then put away, maybe then you'll see higher rating.
 
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Old Gamer
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korxonthos wrote:
So, what other miniature war-games would you guys recommend? I have read over the rules for Epic Armageddon and Battlefleet Gothic and both rules sets seemed quite solid.

I guess it's a shame that the 40k universe is so unique and diverse, and yet, the game itself is rather lacking.


Epic. Do it. It's expensive, but a lot cheaper than 40k.

And it's awesome.
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Lance McMillan
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I'm coming in late to this discussion, and have only scanned through most of the thread, but I'll add one other item that's a 40K detractor that doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet: the clunky and non-intuitive rules set. Mind you, the rules aren't necessarily complicated and play relatively smoothly once you're familiar with them, but there's a pretty hefty hump to get over before you reach that point.

For instance, sometimes you want high ratings (combat skill) and sometimes you want low ratings (armor); sometimes you add, sometimes you subtract; sometimes you want high rolls, sometimes you want low ones. A rational rules set would organize things as much as possible so that the players would intuitively know higher numbers are better in all things, or lower die rolls are better, or that you always add rather than subtract, or whatever... I've tried to introduce kids at the high school games club that I moderate to the 40K system and typically only about half of them ever quite "grok" the mechanics of the game, and it's largely because the rules are so needlessly convoluted.

Then there's the system itself: first you roll a ton of dice to see how many hits you get, then a ton of dice to see how many of those hits wound, and then a ton of dice to see how many of those woulds are turned away by armor, and if you're shooting at a vehicle you then have separate rolls to see how the vehicle was affected... Why couldn't this have been streamlined to two rolls, or even just one? Sometimes you want to use cover, sometimes you don't care less about it (because your armor is better), and sometimes you don't care about either because your unit is "invulnerable" -- figuring out which option is best and why is another needlessly complex process. Do we really need to look this up every time to figure out which defensive roll to take, why not either make a separate roll for each (like WFB) or just have a single roll with modifiers? Again, needlessly convoluted and full of faux complexity that only serves to slow down game play and make learning the system more difficult than it needs to be.

Again, I'm not saying it's necessarily a "bad" system (I rather enjoy it myself), but the way it's structured doesn't lend itself to drawing in occasional or lightweight gamers -- it takes a fair amount of time and effort to learn, much less master, the system. A quick comparison to something like 'Heroscape' or any of the 'Clix' style games, which are far more attractive to inexperienced players, makes clearly evident what I'm getting at. The underlying issue is that when you combine these rules with both the cost and time (assembly/painting) required to get "into" 40K, it's obvious that you really need to be dedicated about playing if you're going to be making it your hobby.

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Bossko B.
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To address the previous comment about the time to play, well I generally play 1500pt games in two hours. The board gamers on the next table playing Battlestar Galactica or somesuch are often still going. We'll often increase the game to 2000pts to make to last the evening.


I don't find the 40K rules that clunky, in fact after playing some RPGs and just glancing at rules for games like Twilight Imperium they're not that bad.

Lots of dice, well that's a personal preference, I like lots of dice. But at it's core 40K is just a dice rolling game with pretty minis. I think most 40K players accept that whilst the detractors still keep pointing that out. I'm sure there are better games, to some people. Each to their own, I'm not a big fan of Agricola and Uno & Monopoly still have lots of people playing them - despite there being better games.

A comparison to Clix isn't really fair. I play Heroclix and it is a pick up and play game, despite being miniatures it's about as far from 40K a game as you can get. And I guess that's why Board Gamers don't get 40K or similar Wargames, they are not pick up and play. But to most 40Kers that's part of the joy. You can enjoy your game building & painting your amies on the nights there is no games club.

But really, there is no better game than the one you like the most. Whatever that may be. cool
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Matt Price
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korxonthos wrote:
I checked out Warmachine one day and I have felt quite interested in its game mechanics, but are there any alternative models I may use? The Warjacks look like freaking ugly metal hunchbacks designed by some drunken unoriginal lunkhead. Seriously, I think the game mechanics are interesting, but I just can't stand the models.


lol. I got into the game because of the freakin awesome models! One man's treasure and all that!

There's nothing to stop you from using 40K or other models as proxies, but I'm not aware of any other company that makes giant, steam-powered robots. Have you looked at Hordes (giant monsters instead of robots, but the same game, same universe) or the Retribution of Sci-something (the WarMachine elves - a very different asthetic that I find totally out of place as they look more like japanese anime, but I reckon some folks might like?)
 
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Cody Holden
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Dystopian Wars has a line of infantry that includes steampunk mechs, but I'm not sure how well those fit...
 
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Matt Price
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An excellent point, I do a lot of proxy-ing in my games!

The warmachine elves look a bit more like many of the japanese mecha I've seen than do the rest of the lines.
 
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MechaBri Zilla
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Sorry for necro-ing this thread, but I'm doing it anyway...



There are a few things I'm surprised didn't come up in this thread.

One of the main reasons I think you find so much hate for GW among the fans of their game is because it IS a hobby. People pour their time money and effort into this game, and just when they feel like their efforts might be paying off, a new codex comes out, or a new edition. That codex or edition might completely break what they were intending to play. This happened to me. I'm what you'd call a casual Warhammer/40k fan. I love the mini's, I like the setting, and I didn't really care if the rules were perfect. I started collecting my armies, at the time Fantasy orcs and Eldar in 40k. It took me a lot of time and money to get these armies together, and just as I was ready to play, new editions of the games came out. Turning everything on it's head. I was pretty mad... (Obviously these things happened a couple years a part as the two games come out on a staggered release schedule, historically speaking.)

It's really hard to have a hobby that is so all-encompassing just to see your goal posts moved every time you get where you want to be. GW mini's are expensive, and they keep getting more expensive, and they keep increasing the gameplay rewards for having more of them. When you are putting that much of yourself into a game, it's hard not to get upset when your time/money/effort suddenly become not enough.

I find the people who are happiest with these games come from a couple of categories.

1. They just like to paint the beautiful mini's. They have enough disposable income to keep them coming as fast as they desire to paint them.

2. Hardcore types who are going to build an army or two every year anyway, whether they paint them or not, and have the income to keep up.

3. People who are dedicated to a single army and so will continue to collect that army through all new editions, and codex's. Generally these people have picked an army that will always be at least in the middle or top of the pack in terms of power and play-ability. So Space Marines, Orks, Empire, etc... They are dedicated enough for them to be able to see their old mini's come back into vogue after long periods of time on the shelf, and have no problem expanding on the army they already have, and are excited to play new strategies with that army.

I would like to be #3. I'm more like #1. I've gotten to the point that I don't care so much about even getting play anymore, as long as I have those nifty mini's to paint. I play when I can, but with a family and kids, that has become increasingly rare.

I've actually moved on to Warhammer Diskwars for my wargaming fix. So now I can casually play 2-3 games in the time it would take me to play a single game of WFB or 40k and still enjoy painting my mini's that may or may not ever find their way onto a table.

I'd love to see GW release a series of smaller skirmish type games that all use the mini's from the larger games. I think that would make the entry point attainable for more players, and give them a sort of gateway drug into the larger games. But, it will never happen.
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Bossko B.
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Great post 'Zilla.

I do think that most of the complaints come from the hardcore players that want something more from the game, often tournament players. Yes the game changes, but at least it's still going unlike others games I've bought into (Star Wars minis, D&D minis, Heroscape...)

I guess I'm somewhere between #1 & #2. I'm a hardcore gamer, but I wouldn't consider myself hardcore 40Ker even though I love the game. I just game to have fun and 40K is a fun game.

What I don't like is that some of the anti-GW comments I see on forums get quite nasty. It's just a game and people need to chill.
 
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MechaBri Zilla
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I mainly just try to ignore them.

Where that becomes difficult is when a new edition or codex comes out and you are trying to decide if you are going to buy it or not. It can be hard to know if you are dealing with nerd-rage or if the book is actually really bad, which some of them are.

I'm actually pretty excited about unbound armies in 7th edition. Suddenly it doesn't matter what models I want to collect, I can play them. Sure some people will try to abuse that, but for someone like me, who doesn't really play competitively, I can build theme based armies and fun armies without worrying about if they fit my force org chart, and it looks like evrything scores too...

First stop, Dark Angels Deathwing, without Belial. This is going to be fun. Definitely going to pack to landraiders into this list.
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