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Subject: Should I get Indonesia or Brass? rss

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Martins Livens
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dcorban wrote:
ghorsche wrote:
There's only so much time to play games, and when deciding how much of it to dedicate to games that can be ruined by weak play, I'd much sooner spend time on Tigris & Euphrates or Puerto Rico than on Container.

Interesting that you contrast Container with two games that are also prone to imbalance and "breakage" with poor play.


He was doing it intensionally. Maybe you should read it once more?
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marliv wrote:
dcorban wrote:
ghorsche wrote:
There's only so much time to play games, and when deciding how much of it to dedicate to games that can be ruined by weak play, I'd much sooner spend time on Tigris & Euphrates or Puerto Rico than on Container.

Interesting that you contrast Container with two games that are also prone to imbalance and "breakage" with poor play.


He was doing it intensionally. Maybe you should read it once more?
Did he win?
 
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Martins Livens
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Now I am confused too. You count it as win?
 
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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marliv wrote:
Now I am confused too. You count it as win?


Count it all loss.
 
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Clyde W
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marliv wrote:
Now I am confused too. You count it as win?
I've never played the game, so I'm just asking...perhaps my question is meaningless given what actually happened...I'm asking for clarification.
 
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clydeiii wrote:
marliv wrote:
Now I am confused too. You count it as win?
I've never played the game, so I'm just asking...perhaps my question is meaningless given what actually happened...I'm asking for clarification.


My comment was:
Nate S
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lists games with "disbalance and "breakage" with poor play" which he preferer to play instead of Container,
while
Daniel Corban
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completly misses the point and wonders why all mentioned games feature "disbalance and.."
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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dcorban wrote:
Indonesia is an enjoyable, deep, and subtle game. However, it feels "clunky", particularly the end game. The strategic play around acquiring new companies and mergers can be rather opaque.

Agreed, but I've only got a few plays in, and still enjoy the game.

dcorban wrote:
Brass, while filled to the brim with interlocking strategic play, comes together more coherently. There is no "clunk". It is a well-oiled machine that allows players to quickly reach a plateau of competency

Brass definitely feels smoother.

Of the two, I enjoy Brass more... Not to knock Indonesia, which is a great game also.
 
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Troy W
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Get them both. You won't be sorry.

Also, you know you can play Brass free online, right? This might be an avenue to try it out. If you somehow hate it, there you go.

Indonesia is rare and hard to get, but DOES get reprinted every few years. I was a little alarmed to see folks assuming the same of Brass. I was reading a thread recently called "On Their Way to Extinct" or something, and it noted that Brass is slowly but surely disappearing from shelves. Alarmed, I checked this, and it's true. Secondary prices are rising and it's increasingly out of stock at even obscure shops--never a good sign.

Splotter are hobbyists who are kind of nuts, so they reprint their obscure games knowing they'll eventually sell through. I don't know if Mayfair will assume the same of Brass--and Martin Wallace is moving to New Zealand and this will probably disrupt his schedule for a while.

Buy them both. Seriously. It's not that much for the joy you'll get, and you'll love them both. And they are both so loved that you can easily sell or trade them if they don't work out, even, I'd bet, in Japan.
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Nate S
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Crikey, I'd forgotten Brass is OOP. So sad!
 
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Toby Jones
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ghorsche wrote:
Crikey, I'd forgotten Brass is OOP. So sad!


Brass has been redesigned/streamlined and re-released as Age of Industry.

From what I've read though, the changes mean they're quite different games, so tread carefully.
 
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Troy W
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tobydjones wrote:
ghorsche wrote:
Crikey, I'd forgotten Brass is OOP. So sad!


Brass has been redesigned/streamlined and re-released as Age of Industry.

From what I've read though, the changes mean they're quite different games, so tread carefully.


Redesigned indeed--but many of us fans believe, nerfed irreparably. I think Wallace didn't realize what a hit he had--he's said it's not one of what he considers his best designs. His attempt to "improve" it, while well-intentioned, just hasn't seemed to catch on.
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Nate S
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tobydjones wrote:
Brass has been redesigned/streamlined and re-released as Age of Industry.

I'm all too aware of Age of Industry. Not the same game and not remotely as good.
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Zé Mário
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Yep, the Wallace-castrating-his-best-games phase.
 
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Asur wrote:
Yep, the Wallace-castrating-his-best-games phase.


That phase was awesome compared to the current one.
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jasoncarlough wrote:
Asur wrote:
Yep, the Wallace-castrating-his-best-games phase.


That phase was awesome compared to the current one.


Well, fair point.
 
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Nate S
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yaaaaaaaaaaay
 
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Nate S
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The Canal phase is very much integral to Brass. It's that old saw: You probably can't win the game during the Canal phase, but you can definitely lose it. You need to set up a good board position for the rail phase while scoring enough points and not wasting too much money/income.

I hate capriciously random elements that reduce the influence of skill on game results (in favor of luck), but the random card element of Brass actually makes the game more skill-intensive rather than less. You need to be able to identify what strategies to work toward (while keeping your options open) based on your early card draws, and roll with the punches as the game goes on. The double-card build is an important option to keep in mind too. Anybody who is frustrated by the random draw element of Brass probably needs to play some more Brass and get better at the game

Yes, on very rare occasions you will run into pathologically unhelpful card draw in the mid-to-late game after you've established a board position that (while flexible) certainly won't be infinitely flexible. But these occasions are very much the exception rather than the rule, and you can still do well even if expert opponents will probably be able to take advantage and beat you.
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Moe45673
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Lee, if you do play AoI (which is a good game that is not light in the slightest, comparisons to Brass notwithstanding), you'll have to play it more than once. And for the love of fair balance, don't play the Germany map (now that would be castration of a game).

Oh, and approach it as a new game, not as you would Brass.
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Nate S
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ldsdbomber wrote:
What i dont like about the cards is not what you seem to think

Well, if you don't like being forced to adapt your strategy to your card draw - which is for me one of the major things that makes Brass a great game - then maybe Brass isn't the ideal game for you
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J C Lawrence
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ghorsche wrote:
ldsdbomber wrote:
What i dont like about the cards is not what you seem to think


Well, if you don't like being forced to adapt your strategy to your card draw - which is for me one of the major things that makes Brass a great game - then maybe Brass isn't the ideal game for you ;)


I am uninterested in games which ask the players to make the best of a random collection that the game gave them.
 
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clearclaw wrote:
I am uninterested in games which ask the players to make the best of a random collection that the game gave them.


Brass is a very minor offender on this front. The flexible ways in which you may use your cards make them more of a gentle nudge than a hard shove in a particular direction. If anything, they serve as a way to shake up the direction of the canal phase.
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
mbmbmbmbmb
clearclaw wrote:
ghorsche wrote:
ldsdbomber wrote:
What i dont like about the cards is not what you seem to think


Well, if you don't like being forced to adapt your strategy to your card draw - which is for me one of the major things that makes Brass a great game - then maybe Brass isn't the ideal game for you


I am uninterested in games which ask the players to make the best of a random collection that the game gave them.


That statement makes me wonder if Brass isn't perfectly playable without the cards.
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Nate S
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clearclaw wrote:
I am uninterested in games which ask the players to make the best of a random collection that the game gave them.

If you're making a statement of personal preference rather than an objective value judgment, hey, I guess that's fine. Presumably you are uninterested in, say, poker or bridge as well... also built on foundations of randomization that are fundamental to their skill-based nature. FWIW Brass is much more "fair" than poker or bridge, in the sense that it requires many fewer iterations to expose small skill differences between players, and I say so without any intent to disparage poker or bridge!
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Martins Livens
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ghorsche wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
I am uninterested in games which ask the players to make the best of a random collection that the game gave them.

If you're making a statement of personal preference rather than an objective value judgment, hey, I guess that's fine. Presumably you are uninterested in, say, poker or bridge as well... also built on foundations of randomization that are fundamental to their skill-based nature. FWIW Brass is much more "fair" than poker or bridge, in the sense that it requires many fewer iterations to expose small skill differences between players, and I say so without any intent to disparage poker or bridge!


Poker and sport bridge are quite different beasts.
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Bryan Thunkd
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ghorsche wrote:
FWIW Brass is much more "fair" than poker or bridge, in the sense that it requires many fewer iterations to expose small skill differences between players, and I say so without any intent to disparage poker or bridge!


Not to derail the topic but duplicate bridge is played with set hands, and every team is scored against all the other players who played the exact same hands. So a lot of the luck element that disguises skill vs luck is removed.
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