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Subject: Board Games up Close - Urban Sprawl Review rss

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Dale Moore
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Well, this baggage you refer to has been based on the fact you don't find waiting 15 min for your turn with nothing to do a problem. This does not make it a bad review.

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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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Dale-not-Chip wrote:
Well, this baggage you refer to has been based on the fact you don't find waiting 15 min for your turn with nothing to do a problem. This does not make it a bad review.



Uh when did I say that? I said that a long game is not a flaw it's a fact. I don't wait 15 minutes for my turn in Urban Sprawl, maybe you should get new opponents.
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Clyde W
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jschlickbernd wrote:
Dale-not-Chip wrote:
Well, this baggage you refer to has been based on the fact you don't find waiting 15 min for your turn with nothing to do a problem. This does not make it a bad review.



Uh when did I say that? I said that a long game is not a flaw it's a fact. I don't wait 15 minutes for my turn in Urban Sprawl, maybe you should get new opponents.
So Jennifer, can you walk us through your game state evaluation algorithm on your turn? Help us take turns faster by explaining how you take fast turns.
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Yelling at other players to tell them to hurry up helps.
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Dale Moore
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jschlickbernd wrote:
Dale-not-Chip wrote:
Well, this baggage you refer to has been based on the fact you don't find waiting 15 min for your turn with nothing to do a problem. This does not make it a bad review.



Uh when did I say that? I said that a long game is not a flaw it's a fact. I don't wait 15 minutes for my turn in Urban Sprawl, maybe you should get new opponents.


You claim that I have brought baggage to the conversation and I guess I don't know what you mean by that.

The thing you are complaining about you are not even denying exists. You say that it's a fact that it's a long game. Then it's your opinion that it's not a problem. Why is it that you feel your opinion is more valid. Is it solely because it's yours? Is it because you have made a decision to like a game and I feel it is not as good as you feel it is?

Re Read the review. I clearly state that the game gives you a very satisfying feeling and the action points allows you to accomplish something every round.

Length of this game is a Fact, you said so yourself, and new player and especially potential buyer need to know this fact and realize it could be a problem they can't get past. There are long games that keep you busy between turns or has a short time between turns yet is still a long game. Urban Sprawl is a long game solely because of the time it take to read cards then make a decision and leaves you nothing to do while that is happening. It would be a huge disservice if this was not mentioned or glossed over.

Share with us how your group reads all the cards with all the different benefits so fast then makes a quick decision which one to get and then the best place to build it. My guess is if your game is lasting 3 hours or better it is taking a long time between turns. It's just the fact that it doesn't bother you, and thats great. It doesn't change the fact that it's a problem.



There are many products that have had problems that people like.
Windows crashes too much but I prefer it to mac
The first Iphone couldn't even Cut and Paste but it had legions of fans.
Jaguars have a horrible repair history but people hold it as a symbol of quality and luxury.

It is O.K. to love a game and admit it has a flaw. It doesn't make your decision to like a game wrong. We like what we like. It's not something we can help.


Last you realise this was not even a negative review. I mention the positive, I mentioned the negative and gave it an Average score. A score based on my personal feelings toward the game.

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Dale Moore
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Malacandra wrote:
Yelling at other players to tell them to hurry up helps.


I'll have to try that. First I better make a list of potential new friends.
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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As part of the design team for a game that routinely lasts eight or more hours the factual length of a game is not an issue for me. Advanced Civilization is designed to last that long, it's inherent in the game play. If you don't have eight hours to play (and you understandably may not) then don't play it.

There are other situations with length of games. Many times players don't have a plan/strategy for the next few turns, especially if they've never played the game before. In Urban Sprawl a first time play will shine a light on this issue because the player doesn't know the cards and can't make plans when it's not her turn.

However after a player has played a few times she should be able to plan ahead when it's not her turn. Sure when her turn comes up she may need to do some adjustments but those should be fairly obvious and not take a long time to decide. Some players don't/won't do this, meaning their turns take a long time. Some players want to analyze every permutation which in a game like Urban Sprawl could literally take half hour a turn. I won't knowingly play with these types of players.

This also goes back to a poll I ran here a few years ago. Do you want a game that's good the first time or the tenth time? Urban Sprawl is a game that is a lot less likely to be as good the first time as it is the tenth time. And this is true of many Euro strategy games.

Lastly I play with players who realize the overall gaming experience is better when everyone is engaged in playing and not waiting 15 minutes between turns.

So no, I will not agree that the length of Urban Sprawl is a flaw. It may not work for you and your group but that doesn't make it flawed. Another example, I can't stand Robo Rally. That doesn't make it flawed, and if I were ever (for some bizarre reason) to review it, I would not call its reliance on spatial skills a flaw; just something doesn't work for me.
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Clyde W
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clydeiii wrote:
jschlickbernd wrote:
Dale-not-Chip wrote:
Well, this baggage you refer to has been based on the fact you don't find waiting 15 min for your turn with nothing to do a problem. This does not make it a bad review.



Uh when did I say that? I said that a long game is not a flaw it's a fact. I don't wait 15 minutes for my turn in Urban Sprawl, maybe you should get new opponents.
So Jennifer, can you walk us through your game state evaluation algorithm on your turn? Help us take turns faster by explaining how you take fast turns.
So you're going to ignore this request for help? Even if it could win you fans for the game?

Again, I contend that slow turns are caused by players who don't know what they could concentrate on during the game. You obviously do, so please help us out.
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Dale Moore
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jschlickbernd wrote:
As part of the design team for a game that routinely lasts eight or more hours the factual length of a game is not an issue for me. Advanced Civilization is designed to last that long, it's inherent in the game play. If you don't have eight hours to play (and you understandably may not) then don't play it.

There are other situations with length of games. Many times players don't have a plan/strategy for the next few turns, especially if they've never played the game before. In Urban Sprawl a first time play will shine a light on this issue because the player doesn't know the cards and can't make plans when it's not her turn.

However after a player has played a few times she should be able to plan ahead when it's not her turn. Sure when her turn comes up she may need to do some adjustments but those should be fairly obvious and not take a long time to decide. Some players don't/won't do this, meaning their turns take a long time. Some players want to analyze every permutation which in a game like Urban Sprawl could literally take half hour a turn. I won't knowingly play with these types of players.

This also goes back to a poll I ran here a few years ago. Do you want a game that's good the first time or the tenth time? Urban Sprawl is a game that is a lot less likely to be as good the first time as it is the tenth time. And this is true of many Euro strategy games.

Lastly I play with players who realize the overall gaming experience is better when everyone is engaged in playing and not waiting 15 minutes between turns.

So no, I will not agree that the length of Urban Sprawl is a flaw. It may not work for you and your group but that doesn't make it flawed. Another example, I can't stand Robo Rally. That doesn't make it flawed, and if I were ever (for some bizarre reason) to review it, I would not call its reliance on spatial skills a flaw; just something doesn't work for me.


As I said before I really enjoy a long game. That is not where Urban Sprawl has it's problems. You're now lumping urban Sprawl into all the other long games out there. You do realize different games are long for different reasons. In my review I even say there are great long games, games that you don't even realize you played for that long. For some reason you feel that you need to convince me that long games are fine if you like them. If that's what you're saying I agree.

Urban sprawl is long due to the amount of text that must be read every turn. this is very important to mention in a review because a new player should know this. Some new players might not realize it's a long game, other might not mind a long game but don't like long down times.

It is hard being engaged during the time you're waiting for your turn. if you're engaged watching the other players, Great. Often times before your turn occurs half the buildings you can choose from change as well as half the permit cards. That is a huge turnover to allow for pre-planning. I've played this game. I did very well, however all pre planning was ruined almost every turn do to the choices of the other players.


So what our little back and forth boils down to and has brought all this "baggage" is a difference of opinion. You don't feel long wait times are a problem, and you're allowed to feel that way. However you didn't add to the conversation by saying that. You wanted to say that you didn't feel that way so I was wrong.

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Dale Moore
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jschlickbernd wrote:
In Urban Sprawl a first time play will shine a light on this issue because the player doesn't know the cards and can't make plans when it's not her turn.

However after a player has played a few times she should be able to plan ahead when it's not her turn.


I don't see how playing a many times is going to help you memorize 165 cards.
Many of these cards are not even exposed during a game.
Also unlimited plays is not going to let you know what cards is about to be flipped.

I challenge you to play again and actually time how long it takes between set up for the next player and when you begin your next turn. I would bet it is taking longer than you think, you just don't mind.

If that time is fast and you're still playing this game in 3 hours. what is making this a long game? It's not the size of the decks. The trigger for the next deck is midway down the deck, so usually you don't see all the cards.

 
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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Dale-not-Chip wrote:
jschlickbernd wrote:
In Urban Sprawl a first time play will shine a light on this issue because the player doesn't know the cards and can't make plans when it's not her turn.

However after a player has played a few times she should be able to plan ahead when it's not her turn.


I don't see how playing a many times is going to help you memorize 165 cards.
Many of these cards are not even exposed during a game.
Also unlimited plays is not going to let you know what cards is about to be flipped.

I challenge you to play again and actually time how long it takes between set up for the next player and when you begin your next turn. I would bet it is taking longer than you think, you just don't mind.

If that time is fast and you're still playing this game in 3 hours. what is making this a long game? It's not the size of the decks. The trigger for the next deck is midway down the deck, so usually you don't see all the cards.



It occurs to me that you are probably playing with four players. We never play this game with four players, only with three or two. I don't memorize each word on a card. Once I see the card, a few keywords let me know what card it is and I act accordingly. I also try to prepare for certain Planning cards that could come up. They might not come up but they are game changers so if they come up I can hope to take advantage of them.

It's not a game for everyone, and reading your London review it's very clear we like different types of games.
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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Dale-not-Chip wrote:
jschlickbernd wrote:
As part of the design team for a game that routinely lasts eight or more hours the factual length of a game is not an issue for me. Advanced Civilization is designed to last that long, it's inherent in the game play. If you don't have eight hours to play (and you understandably may not) then don't play it.

There are other situations with length of games. Many times players don't have a plan/strategy for the next few turns, especially if they've never played the game before. In Urban Sprawl a first time play will shine a light on this issue because the player doesn't know the cards and can't make plans when it's not her turn.

However after a player has played a few times she should be able to plan ahead when it's not her turn. Sure when her turn comes up she may need to do some adjustments but those should be fairly obvious and not take a long time to decide. Some players don't/won't do this, meaning their turns take a long time. Some players want to analyze every permutation which in a game like Urban Sprawl could literally take half hour a turn. I won't knowingly play with these types of players.

This also goes back to a poll I ran here a few years ago. Do you want a game that's good the first time or the tenth time? Urban Sprawl is a game that is a lot less likely to be as good the first time as it is the tenth time. And this is true of many Euro strategy games.

Lastly I play with players who realize the overall gaming experience is better when everyone is engaged in playing and not waiting 15 minutes between turns.

So no, I will not agree that the length of Urban Sprawl is a flaw. It may not work for you and your group but that doesn't make it flawed. Another example, I can't stand Robo Rally. That doesn't make it flawed, and if I were ever (for some bizarre reason) to review it, I would not call its reliance on spatial skills a flaw; just something doesn't work for me.




So what our little back and forth boils down to and has brought all this "baggage" is a difference of opinion. You don't feel long wait times are a problem, and you're allowed to feel that way. However you didn't add to the conversation by saying that. You wanted to say that you didn't feel that way so I was wrong.



Yes because it's obvious I know you well and want you to feel bad. (sarcasm off). Geez. Seriously? I certainly spend all my days going all over the internet telling people how wrong they are. Unfortunately I have only reached .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% but I will keep going.

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Dale Moore
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jschlickbernd wrote:
Dale-not-Chip wrote:
jschlickbernd wrote:
In Urban Sprawl a first time play will shine a light on this issue because the player doesn't know the cards and can't make plans when it's not her turn.

However after a player has played a few times she should be able to plan ahead when it's not her turn.


I don't see how playing a many times is going to help you memorize 165 cards.
Many of these cards are not even exposed during a game.
Also unlimited plays is not going to let you know what cards is about to be flipped.

I challenge you to play again and actually time how long it takes between set up for the next player and when you begin your next turn. I would bet it is taking longer than you think, you just don't mind.

If that time is fast and you're still playing this game in 3 hours. what is making this a long game? It's not the size of the decks. The trigger for the next deck is midway down the deck, so usually you don't see all the cards.



It occurs to me that you are probably playing with four players. We never play this game with four players, only with three or two. I don't memorize each word on a card. Once I see the card, a few keywords let me know what card it is and I act accordingly. I also try to prepare for certain Planning cards that could come up. They might not come up but they are game changers so if they come up I can hope to take advantage of them.

It's not a game for everyone, and reading your London review it's very clear we like different types of games.


Actually I play with three.
 
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Clyde W
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Dale, how many games have the three of you played? If 5+, have you found the players getting better at evaluating game state on their turn?
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Dale Moore
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Some has played more than others. One of the players has played over 10 times. One has played only a few but is an avid convention goer and competes with other games at a high level. I also interviewed other played than have been playing US since it came out.

I was by far the newest player. Ironically I played much faster game than they did and I dominated the game from the beginning. No matter the level of experience of the player. We all had to take time to read the 4 - 6 cards that came out on their turn then decide what to get and how to use it.

 
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No one replied to the facts I presented. Therefore, because this is the internet, I must repeat them until all are bent to my view.

Recent plays by both four experienced players and three experienced players (a game I played) clocked in at 1:40. That's not really that long.

I have no idea how much time was spent between turns but who knows?

I just repeat this fact because while there is an initially longer play time, experience reduces it significantly, and primarily because you know the cards. For example, I look for the houses to come out because I know those drop the big money chits. I also look for yellow and red dots on the contracts because that's going to alter someone's wealth and prestige. Plus, if you're paying attention to what people are actually doing on their turn, you'll have a good idea which cards are likely to make it to your turn.

Some people like the game even with longer initial times. Those are the people who will likely continue to play it, get more experienced and drop their playing times down. Others won't give it that chance because they just don't like it.

My only critique of the review is that you don't seem to have played enough to make any claim other than it's a very long game with too much downtime when, in fact, it doesn't have to be.

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Malacandra wrote:
No one replied to the facts I presented. Therefore, because this is the internet, I must repeat them until all are bent to my view.

Recent plays by both four experienced players and three experienced players (a game I played) clocked in at 1:40. That's not really that long.
No one replied to anything I said either. Welcome to the club. Let's talk to each other instead.

1:40 sounds amazing. I'd love to be able to explain the game well enough to get players there. Let's talk about what you and your friends do on their turn in order to get the playtime down to something approaching 1:40 (other than being super smart of course).

Here's the algorithm I run in my head at the start of each of my turns. Please help me get the runtime of this algorithm down as much as possible:

- step 1: process each of the 6 buildings currently available, understanding the effects of each building on you and your opponents if YOU build it, and then if SOMEONE ELSE builds it, given the current game state (evaluations based on money and VP gained or lost, mostly)
- step 2: figure out a combo of 6 or 8AP that allows you to get the buildings and permits needed to build the buildings that help you most (or deny those that hurt you most) while also keeping in mind the permits you already have whatever building is in your favor box
- step 3: given the buildings and permits you have, figure out which you can and should build and in the optimal order, given cash on hand, size and zoning restrictions, effects triggered by those buildings, and how the new buildings will effect the upcoming elections (note: if you realize that you cannot build any of the buildings you wanted to, given a restriction you didn't realize, go back to step 1)

Okay. So that's my algorithm. Pare it down. Shave off as many seconds as possible. Tell me what doesn't matter in my algorithm and why yours leads you to victory against those employing my algorithm.

An example of how one might shave minutes off off the above algorithm is:

- step 1: briefly glance at the buildings in AP1, 2 and 3, and look to see if it's especially great for you (or horrible for you if you don't take it)
- step 2: grab some random combo of the cards in AP1, 2 and 3 for permits and buildings, picking up the best possible building
- step 3: look for the most expensive space on the board, and build there, if possible; if not, build at most expensive spot you can afford

That algorithm shave seconds off by ignoring the possibility of building more than one building on a turn. Helps with the playtime, but I don't know if it helps you win the game.

Another algorithm might be, same as the above two steps, but:

- step 3: build always in the cheapest legal spot on the board

Again, I don't know if that helps you win the game. I doubt it, but I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.
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Dale Moore
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Malacandra wrote:
No one replied to the facts I presented. Therefore, because this is the internet, I must repeat them until all are bent to my view.




I can get behind that.
 
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Malacandra wrote:


Recent plays by both four experienced players and three experienced players (a game I played) clocked in at 1:40. That's not really that long.

I have no idea how much time was spent between turns but who knows?

I just repeat this fact because while there is an initially longer play time, experience reduces it significantly, and primarily because you know the cards. For example, I look for the houses to come out because I know those drop the big money chits. I also look for yellow and red dots on the contracts because that's going to alter someone's wealth and prestige. Plus, if you're paying attention to what people are actually doing on their turn, you'll have a good idea which cards are likely to make it to your turn.

Some people like the game even with longer initial times. Those are the people who will likely continue to play it, get more experienced and drop their playing times down. Others won't give it that chance because they just don't like it.

My only critique of the review is that you don't seem to have played enough to make any claim other than it's a very long game with too much downtime when, in fact, it doesn't have to be.



That's super you all played so fast. you clocked in under the suggested time on the box. You don't see that happen all too often with any game.

It is true that I have not played it a whole lot. But I am part of a game group and we have members that have played this game tons of times. I asked then if it ever gets quicker and they always clock in at the 3 or more hour mark.

I just don't see where an average group will speed up to your level. the Box doesn't think so either. It seems to me that when it comes to memory and decisiveness you play with a faster than average group. And to that I say congrats. I'm jealous.


I find it odd that the main problem with my review is the play time, which is 3 hour min Listed right on the box , and I state that most of the length is spent waiting for your turn with no real activity but watching while waiting on your turn.

No one had a problem with me claiming that the game is to random, and cards that are needed to swing the tide can get trapped under the trigger cards. Leading to an extremely lopsided game.

pssssst. If we keep this up we might get the game back into the hotness. I like to see even the games I'm not a huge fan of sell well.
 
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Dale Moore
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clydeiii wrote:
Malacandra wrote:
No one replied to the facts I presented. Therefore, because this is the internet, I must repeat them until all are bent to my view.

Recent plays by both four experienced players and three experienced players (a game I played) clocked in at 1:40. That's not really that long.
No one replied to anything I said either. Welcome to the club. Let's talk to each other instead.

1:40 sounds amazing. I'd love to be able to explain the game well enough to get players there. Let's talk about what you and your friends do on their turn in order to get the playtime down to something approaching 1:40 (other than being super smart of course).

Here's the algorithm I run in my head at the start of each of my turns. Please help me get the runtime of this algorithm down as much as possible:

- step 1: process each of the 6 buildings currently available, understanding the effects of each building on you and your opponents if YOU build it, and then if SOMEONE ELSE builds it, given the current game state (evaluations based on money and VP gained or lost, mostly)
- step 2: figure out a combo of 6 or 8AP that allows you to get the buildings and permits needed to build the buildings that help you most (or deny those that hurt you most) while also keeping in mind the permits you already have whatever building is in your favor box
- step 3: given the buildings and permits you have, figure out which you can and should build and in the optimal order, given cash on hand, size and zoning restrictions, effects triggered by those buildings, and how the new buildings will effect the upcoming elections (note: if you realize that you cannot build any of the buildings you wanted to, given a restriction you didn't realize, go back to step 1)

Okay. So that's my algorithm. Pare it down. Shave off as many seconds as possible. Tell me what doesn't matter in my algorithm and why yours leads you to victory against those employing my algorithm.

An example of how one might shave minutes off off the above algorithm is:

- step 1: briefly glance at the buildings in AP1, 2 and 3, and look to see if it's especially great for you (or horrible for you if you don't take it)
- step 2: grab some random combo of the cards in AP1, 2 and 3 for permits and buildings, picking up the best possible building
- step 3: look for the most expensive space on the board, and build there, if possible; if not, build at most expensive spot you can afford

That algorithm shave seconds off by ignoring the possibility of building more than one building on a turn. Helps with the playtime, but I don't know if it helps you win the game.

Another algorithm might be, same as the above two steps, but:

- step 3: build always in the cheapest legal spot on the board

Again, I don't know if that helps you win the game. I doubt it, but I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.


Quote:
step 1: process each of the 6 buildings currently available, understanding the effects of each building on you and your opponents if YOU build it, and then if SOMEONE ELSE builds it, given the current game state (evaluations based on money and VP gained or lost, mostly)
- step 2: figure out a combo of 6 or 8AP that allows you to get the buildings and permits needed to build the buildings that help you most (or deny those that hurt you most) while also keeping in mind the permits you already have whatever building is in your favor box


These are the steps that makes the turns last longer than needed.

the problem I see is if you spend less time on the things you mentioned you will leave yourself open to a huge loss. Also you need to add more steps to your algorithm.

* You need to keep in mind what it takes to win the various elections. Do you want to be the Mayor, Union boss, Treasurer, etc. This will modify what you want and where you build.

* You don't always want to build on the most expensive. It's better to build and dominate a cheap area and then make it expensive with the new chips. Although luck might not be on your side for that to happen.

I can see some time shaved off if you play with the same group over and over and you all tend to do the same thing every game. The minute you throw a different person in, the game will grind to a halt if you always just go for the Residential buildings and all of a sudden you have competition for the same buildings.
 
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I honestly can't break it down to an "algorithm." I'm just not that observant as to what I'm doing. blush

If I had some general idea of what I do on a turn it would be this:

- Looking for buildings that will let me place wealth or prestige markers
- Looking for buildings that get me more vocations. The more vocations the better. They score big in the Metropolis phase.
- Looking at the next politician to be elected and trying to find a play that will get me elected to that one.
- Looking for buildings that will pay out big prestige. Wealth isn't as important to me.

During the other players' turn I make the time pass quickly by texting or checking my emails. laugh

I do try to keep an eye on where things are moving to guesstimate what's going to be in my lineup. Generally, higher AP buildings are more likely to end up as low AP choices unless the building gets nabbed for a Favor.

My friend's son can be a bit prone to some AP but is also really good at calculating effects for himself and others. My friend and I have played enough, I guess, that we generally know what the cards are going to do and which ones need to be grabbed to keep the other players from benefitting.

Even at three hours (had a game with a new player go slightly longer the other day) I don't mind the game. Maybe I just don't mind downtime. I will admit to jumping to do the after-turn actions. I like to keep busy.

Urban Sprawl is just one of those games that people will know fairly quickly if they like what's going on, even with perceived negatives. Or else they won't.

Sometimes I think we think we should like certain games but we just don't/ Tastes vary and there's nothing wrong with that.

I only pointed out, for completeness, that some experience seems to speed things up.

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Dale Moore
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Quote:
During the other players' turn I make the time pass quickly by texting or checking my emails.


Ah ha.


That's all I ever mentioned length for. Be prepared for it. It's a flaw of the game to spend that much time waiting for your turn. If you're the type that can't stand it then watch out. If it doesn't bother you, Building that city is fun.

 
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Dale Moore
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jschlickbernd wrote:

Yes because it's obvious I know you well and want you to feel bad. (sarcasm off). Geez. Seriously? I certainly spend all my days going all over the internet telling people how wrong they are. Unfortunately I have only reached .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% but I will keep going.



 
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Kirk Thomas
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Dale-not-Chip wrote:
Well, this baggage you refer to has been based on the fact you don't find waiting 15 min for your turn with nothing to do a problem. This does not make it a bad review.



If you're playing 3p and waiting 15 minutes for the other two to take their turns, then using (presumably) 7.5 minutes for your own, how do you get a game done in 3 hrs? You've taken a lot of flak for calling the length of turns / downtime as a flaw - I realize that there are many words you could use, and you've tried to clarify, so my question is merely to understand - I would think if everybody averages 7.5 mins per turn, the game would take far longer than 3 hours.

Anyway, it's been a while since I've played US, but one of the things I really liked about it was that it was a 3 hour game that definitely would finish in 3 hours, unlike, say, Dominant Species, which can really drag out at the end. As others have commented, 2p and 3p games easily finish in under 3 hours.

My own observation is that, while the choices often are wide open, quite regularly there are moves that are just a lot more obvious and, therefore, take a lot less time. Cards come out that are much less valuable that you don't have to spend time evaluating. While I need to glance at every card, once you understand the format of the card, I can read several cards in just a handful of seconds.

I could easily see how this game could take forever - it has a high potential for AP. But one of the things I like about games like this is that, because there is randomness, for the most part you can't try to think several moves ahead. Instead, you have a basic idea of what your goals are for upcoming turns, and opportunistically take advantage of conditions that allow you to improve on those goals.

For me, the flaw in the game is the amount of small administrative moves get made - pay a dollar, get a dollar, etc. These can be resolved by using alternative record-keeping mechanisms.
 
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