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Subject: Liliana rss

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Robert Leonhard
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Question: Liliana "always" fights with Spirit. But I'm playing the Scarecrow, and she just got attacked by Locusts. When fighting Locusts, heroes "must" fight with cunning.

Which rule has priority here?

Thanks.
 
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Tristan Hall
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I think the locusts win here, because iirc her ability lets her use spirit instead of combat, but it's not a combat check, it's a cunning check, so you can't use spirit instead. whistle
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Ken H.
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ninjadorg wrote:
I think the locusts win here


Hmm, there is a reasonable interpretation on both sides. But, I'd go the other way. Liliana's ability says she "always uses spirit in a fight". There is no "instead of" clause.

Locusts say "Heroes must use Cunning instead of Combat during this fight." So, I would say you only use Cunning if you were going to use Combat in the first place.

Quote:
ability lets her use spirit instead of combat, but it's not a combat check, it's a cunning check, so you can't use spirit instead.


It's a "fight" according to Locust text. Liliana must use spirit in a fight. The Locusts' "instead of" clause doesn't apply because nobody is using Combat....

Just a theory.... I don't really know, so an official answer would be nice.
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Robert Leonhard
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Thanks, Tristan, but that doesn't seem right to me. I wouldn't consider it a cunning check, just because the cunning skill is mandated. It's still a fight. And by that logic, Liliana's use of spirit in a combat would be considered a spirit check, which doesn't seem right.

I thought I read an obscure rule that dealt with this, but I can't find it.

Anyway, you may be right. Who knows?
 
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Robert Leonhard
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Ken--That makes sense to me. I'm going to go with that and let her use spirit.

Thanks to both of you for your thoughts.

Bob
 
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MoonSylver
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Rubric wrote:
ninjadorg wrote:
I think the locusts win here


Hmm, there is a reasonable interpretation on both sides. But, I'd go the other way. Liliana's ability says she "always uses spirit in a fight". There is no "instead of" clause.

Locusts say "Heroes must use Cunning instead of Combat during this fight." So, I would say you only use Cunning if you were going to use Combat in the first place.

Quote:
ability lets her use spirit instead of combat, but it's not a combat check, it's a cunning check, so you can't use spirit instead.


It's a "fight" according to Locust text. Liliana must use spirit in a fight. The Locusts' "instead of" clause doesn't apply because nobody is using Combat....

Just a theory.... I don't really know, so an official answer would be nice.


I agree as well. As with all things FFP, wording is everything. In Liliana's ability it simply states : "Always uses Spirit in a Fight" whereas other Heroes, such as Brother Marcus read as "MAY use Spirit INSTEAD OF COMBAT in a Fight" (emphasis mine).

I think this is telling because A) It's not optional in her case (Always uses) & B) it doesn't add the cavet "instead of combat".

Therefore, I think your reasoning is spot on. I'd even daresay that it was worded thusly for just such occasions.
---MS
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Tristan Hall
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Fair points all, I must have been thinking of Marcus' ability instead.
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Derek VDG
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Agreed she can use it, due to wording.

A Fight is a Fight. A fight might be resolved using different skills (Combat, Spirit, Honor, whatever), but it is still a Fight.

So, the way the wording works:
By default a Fight uses Combat.
Locusts text changes the default Combat to Cunning.
Liliana's text does not care what the current skill is, she always uses Spirit. Thus, Cunning changes to Spirit.
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ShadowOaks Resident
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We had a similar situation but between Liliana and The Hooded Man Haunting. The Hooded Man's card says "You must use Combat to Fight." The person playing Liliana argued he could use Spirit, but the rest of us decided he had to use Combat. I agree with the posting above saying that there was some rule regarding this. In the heat of the game, I couldn't find it, but what I was thinking of is in the rules under the description of the Sunken Seven. It states "At the start of each fight round with the Villian, a Hero rolls to see what Skill they must use to fight with this round. The particular skill rolled MUST be used, regardless of any Items or abilities the Hero has." To me, if Liliana rolled Combat fighting the Villian, she would have to use Combat. It's a stretch, but I would also apply this rule to the individual Hauntings she may encounter (i.e. she would have to use Combat). For locusts, I think using Spirit is OK because of the wording of "instead of Combat." I'm hoping someone would confirm for locusts (wording of "instead of combat") and for individual hauntings (wording of "must use ").
 
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MoonSylver
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jdoran wrote:
We had a similar situation but between Liliana and The Hooded Man Haunting. The Hooded Man's card says "You must use Combat to Fight." The person playing Liliana argued he could use Spirit, but the rest of us decided he had to use Combat. I agree with the posting above saying that there was some rule regarding this. In the heat of the game, I couldn't find it, but what I was thinking of is in the rules under the description of the Sunken Seven. It states "At the start of each fight round with the Villian, a Hero rolls to see what Skill they must use to fight with this round. The particular skill rolled MUST be used, regardless of any Items or abilities the Hero has." To me, if Liliana rolled Combat fighting the Villian, she would have to use Combat. It's a stretch, but I would also apply this rule to the individual Hauntings she may encounter (i.e. she would have to use Combat). For locusts, I think using Spirit is OK because of the wording of "instead of Combat." I'm hoping someone would confirm for locusts (wording of "instead of combat") and for individual hauntings (wording of "must use ").


I've been thinking about The Seven & agree, when fighting them collectively (showdown) There's no DOUBT that their rules would take precident. As individual Hauntings, I'm not as sure. Since they were so specific w/ The Seven as Villian, but not on the individual Haunting card I can't really argue a case FOR it.
---MS
 
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Robert Leonhard
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I've instructed my heroes that if they want to adventure in Shadowbrook, it would be best to take a lawyer along, just in case.

Actually, I'm glad that everyone is dealing with this uncertainty. I was thinking I missed something.

Liliana used Spirit.

Locusts lost.
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MoonSylver
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Robert Leonhard wrote:
I've instructed my heroes that if they want to adventure in Shadowbrook, it would be best to take a lawyer along, just in case.




All FFP games I've played thus far do require a careful reading of the wording of card effects, special abilities, etc., being mindful of Keywords & phrasing. It's easy to glance at them & THINK you know what it says but look carefully & notice the true intent.

It's not that they're confusing, just precise, IMO. laugh
---MS
 
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Derek VDG
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jdoran wrote:
We had a similar situation but between Liliana and The Hooded Man Haunting. The Hooded Man's card says "You must use Combat to Fight." The person playing Liliana argued he could use Spirit, but the rest of us decided he had to use Combat. I agree with the posting above saying that there was some rule regarding this. In the heat of the game, I couldn't find it, but what I was thinking of is in the rules under the description of the Sunken Seven. It states "At the start of each fight round with the Villian, a Hero rolls to see what Skill they must use to fight with this round. The particular skill rolled MUST be used, regardless of any Items or abilities the Hero has." To me, if Liliana rolled Combat fighting the Villian, she would have to use Combat. It's a stretch, but I would also apply this rule to the individual Hauntings she may encounter (i.e. she would have to use Combat). For locusts, I think using Spirit is OK because of the wording of "instead of Combat." I'm hoping someone would confirm for locusts (wording of "instead of combat") and for individual hauntings (wording of "must use ").


I agree that in the above case, it trumps Liliana's ability. However, it specifically states that it overrides any Items or Hero abilities.
 
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MoonSylver
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dvang wrote:
jdoran wrote:
We had a similar situation but between Liliana and The Hooded Man Haunting. The Hooded Man's card says "You must use Combat to Fight." The person playing Liliana argued he could use Spirit, but the rest of us decided he had to use Combat. I agree with the posting above saying that there was some rule regarding this. In the heat of the game, I couldn't find it, but what I was thinking of is in the rules under the description of the Sunken Seven. It states "At the start of each fight round with the Villian, a Hero rolls to see what Skill they must use to fight with this round. The particular skill rolled MUST be used, regardless of any Items or abilities the Hero has." To me, if Liliana rolled Combat fighting the Villian, she would have to use Combat. It's a stretch, but I would also apply this rule to the individual Hauntings she may encounter (i.e. she would have to use Combat). For locusts, I think using Spirit is OK because of the wording of "instead of Combat." I'm hoping someone would confirm for locusts (wording of "instead of combat") and for individual hauntings (wording of "must use ").


I agree that in the above case, it trumps Liliana's ability. However, it specifically states that it overrides any Items or Hero abilities.


But it only states it for The Sunken Seven AS A GROUP i.e THE VILLAIN. It DOES NOT specify this for the Hauntings of the seven individual ghosts, hence the confusion, & my belief that it DOES NOT apply to them individually.

Unless it was oversight on thier behalf (which I would tend to doubt since they're so detailed about wording). If the intent had been for each Ghost of The Sunken Seven to be able to override Special Abilities like Liliana's, the same text would (should?) be included on their Haunting cards.

In any case, since it ISN'T, unless Jason or Mary Beth stops by to clear it up, I have to play it as written.
---MS
 
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Bob T
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I say she uses Spirit. The whole point of her ability seems to be to defeat the Sunken Seven in all their forms. The same would apply to Locusts as well- she'd use Spirit.
 
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Rolfe Bergstrom
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My reading of the rules (and especially the FAQ) would be that the Locusts override Liliana's power (as well as the similar powers of Brother Marcus from Something Wicked, and Abigail Sturn from Hero Pack Two).

The following is quoted from Flying Frog's online FAQ (http://flyingfrogwiki.com/ffpwiki/index.php?title=ATOE_FAQ_%...), and also appears on page 26 of the rulebook.

Quote:
Q1. - If you have an Item that lets you use Cunning or Spirit instead of Combat to fight, what if a Minion requires you to use something other than Combat in the first place (such as Ghost Soldiers)?

A1. - Items like Tools of Science may ONLY be used if you would actually be using Combat to fight. Against Ghost Soldiers for instance, the Hero will always have to use their Spirit.


While that is specifically referring to items that grant these abilities, I suspect it applies to characters as well. At the time that was added to the FAQ, the only way to use Spirit or Cunning in a fight was via items. The FAQ didn't mention characters with that ability, simply because they didn't exist yet. Later, when the characters of Marcus, Abigail and Liliana were added to the game, they were introduced in the context of there already being a ruling in place saying how this sort of ability interacted with monsters that contradicted it.
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MoonSylver
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R_b_bergstrom wrote:
My reading of the rules (and especially the FAQ) would be that the Locusts override Liliana's power (as well as the similar powers of Brother Marcus from Something Wicked, and Abigail Sturn from Hero Pack Two).

The following is quoted from Flying Frog's online FAQ (http://flyingfrogwiki.com/ffpwiki/index.php?title=ATOE_FAQ_%...), and also appears on page 26 of the rulebook.

Quote:
Q1. - If you have an Item that lets you use Cunning or Spirit instead of Combat to fight, what if a Minion requires you to use something other than Combat in the first place (such as Ghost Soldiers)?

A1. - Items like Tools of Science may ONLY be used if you would actually be using Combat to fight. Against Ghost Soldiers for instance, the Hero will always have to use their Spirit.


While that is specifically referring to items that grant these abilities, I suspect it applies to characters as well. At the time that was added to the FAQ, the only way to use Spirit or Cunning in a fight was via items. The FAQ didn't mention characters with that ability, simply because they didn't exist yet. Later, when the characters of Marcus, Abigail and Liliana were added to the game, they were introduced in the context of there already being a ruling in place saying how this sort of ability interacted with monsters that contradicted it.


The question at issue though isn't if it applies to Character powers as well as items. The question is the wording of Liliana's ability vs ALL other examples. As I stated earlier in the thread:

M00NSYLVER wrote:
As with all things FFP, wording is everything. In Liliana's ability it simply states : "Always uses Spirit in a Fight" whereas other Heroes, such as Brother Marcus read as "MAY use Spirit INSTEAD OF COMBAT in a Fight" (emphasis mine).

I think this is telling because A) It's not optional in her case (Always uses) & B) it doesn't add the cavet "instead of combat".

Therefore, I think your reasoning is spot on. I'd even daresay that it was worded thusly for just such occasions.
---MS


Liliana is the ONLY character that is worded ALWAYS USES SPIRIT IN A FIGHT instead of "MAY use _______ INSTEAD OF ________ ." I know it seems pedantic, but I do believe that it is a CRUCIAL distinction.
---MS
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Ken H.
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R_b_bergstrom wrote:
My reading of the rules (and especially the FAQ) would be that the Locusts override Liliana's power (as well as the similar powers of Brother Marcus from Something Wicked, and Abigail Sturn from Hero Pack Two).


I agree with Moonsylver (as usual). The "instead of" language is the key. The way I read it, instead of trumps must.

I just don't know what to do when the Hero AND the villain both give mandatory and inconsistent instructions, where neither of them says "may" or "instead of".

I don't have The Coast yet. (Well, technically it's in my house, along with Timber Peak and COPE, but I haven't "unwrapped" them yet.) So, I am not up to speed on the difference between the Sunken Seven vs. non-villain Hauntings. But, I can see from the images on BGG that the Seven's villain card says the Hero must use Combat (or Cunning, or whatever), AND some of the individual ghosts also say "must".

Liliana doesn't say must, but does say always.

I can't distinguish any priority between "must" and "always", so I think this needs an official response from FFP. The Hooded Man appears to be the best example for the questions. It says you "must" use Combat to fight it. So the two question are:
1. What does Liliana use? She must use Combat, but she always uses Spirit.
2. What does Brother Marcus and/or Tools of Science use? They must use Combat, but may use Spirit or Cunning instead of Combat.

My gut says the answer is Liliana's ability trumps everything, and she simply always uses Spirit, period. I also think Marcus or Tools can use their "instead of" ability against the Hooded Man. In other words, my feeling is that Hero abilities trump other abilities when there is a conflict.

However, like I said, I haven't read the rules yet, so maybe I'm missing something.

Edit: Oops, no official FFP response is needed. As Rolfe pointed out below, the rules do define "must". Serves me right for trying to participate in a rules discussion without reading the rules....
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Rolfe Bergstrom
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Quote:
Liliana is the ONLY character that is worded ALWAYS USES SPIRIT IN A FIGHT instead of "MAY use _______ INSTEAD OF ________ ." I know it seems pedantic, but I do believe that it is a CRUCIAL distinction.


I agree that "always" is very important, and that it was worded differently for a reason. But there's at least two ways to interpret what "always" means, and thus what the reason is for the unique phrasing.

A) "Always" could be, as you suggest, stating that this power is better than Brother Marcus' power (and better than the similar powers of various monsters and villains). This one "always" works, whereas his can be stopped when a monster requires a particular stat. In this interpretation "always" means "Liliana's power trumps everything else."

or

B) "Always" could instead be a restriction, stating that it's not optional, and the player must choose to use it whenever doing so is a legal play. So it's technically not quite as good as Brother Marcus's power, because if he randomly found some items or Event cards that boosted his Combat above his Spirit he could choose to roll his Combat instead. Spirited Strike, for example, is an Event card that adds your Spirit to your Combat for one attack. Under this interpretation, Marcus could use Spirited Attack to get a couple extra dice, but Liliana could not (it adds Spirit to Combat, but not the other way around).



So, there's at least these two ways to interpret "always". I'm leaning towards "B", personally.


With that in mind, I went looking in the rulebook to see if there was anything in the book that either supported or undermined either (or both) of those interpretations. I found this on page 13 of the rulebook to The Coast. It's in the section entitled "Ghastly Horde" which gives instructions on how The Sunken Seven work.

Quote:
At the start of each Fight Round with the Villain, a Hero rolls to see what Skill they must use to fight with this round. The particular skill MUST be used, regardless of any Items or abilities the Hero has.


Note specifically the "regardless of any Items or abilities the Hero has" in that quote. I think that's every bit as crucial of a distinction as "always", as well as being a lot less ambiguous. To me, that sure seems like strong evidence that the "always" does NOT mean "Liliana's ability trumps everything else", because the Sunken Seven specifies that they trump all character abilities.
 
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Rolfe Bergstrom
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Quote:
My gut says the answer is Liliana's ability trumps everything, and she simply always uses Spirit, period. I also think Marcus or Tools can use their "instead of" ability against the Hooded Man. In other words, my feeling is that Hero abilities trump other abilities when there is a conflict.


The tools do not over-ride the must requirements of a minion, as that is clearly and specifically stated in the FAQ. Page 26 of the original A Touch Of Evil rulebook says:

Quote:
Items like Tools of Science may ONLY be used if you would actually be using Combat to fight. Against Ghost Soldiers for instance, the Hero will always have to use their Spirit.
 
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Ken H.
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R_b_bergstrom wrote:
Note specifically the "regardless of any Items or abilities the Hero has" in that quote. I think that's every bit as crucial of a distinction as "always", as well as being a lot less ambiguous. To me, that sure seems like strong evidence that the "always" does NOT mean "Liliana's ability trumps everything else", because the Sunken Seven specifies that they trump all character abilities.


Ah okay. Well, like I said, I have not read these rules yet, so I didn't know there was a rule specifically on this issue. It's crystal clear now.

R_b_bergstrom wrote:
Quote:
My gut says the answer is Liliana's ability trumps everything, and she simply always uses Spirit, period. I also think Marcus or Tools can use their "instead of" ability against the Hooded Man. In other words, my feeling is that Hero abilities trump other abilities when there is a conflict.


The tools do not over-ride the must requirements of a minion, as that is clearly and specifically stated in the FAQ. Page 26 of the original A Touch Of Evil rulebook says:

Quote:
Items like Tools of Science may ONLY be used if you would actually be using Combat to fight. Against Ghost Soldiers for instance, the Hero will always have to use their Spirit.


What I was saying is that if the "must" requirement is to use Combat, then you should be allowed to use an ability that is "instead of" Combat. However, I now understand that "must" means you can't use abilities at all, according to the above rule you cited. So, it's not the FAQ entry, but the actual rules that clear up the Hooded Man issue.
 
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MoonSylver
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R_b_bergstrom wrote:
Quote:
Liliana is the ONLY character that is worded ALWAYS USES SPIRIT IN A FIGHT instead of "MAY use _______ INSTEAD OF ________ ." I know it seems pedantic, but I do believe that it is a CRUCIAL distinction.


I agree that "always" is very important, and that it was worded differently for a reason. But there's at least two ways to interpret what "always" means, and thus what the reason is for the unique phrasing.

A) "Always" could be, as you suggest, stating that this power is better than Brother Marcus' power (and better than the similar powers of various monsters and villains). This one "always" works, whereas his can be stopped when a monster requires a particular stat. In this interpretation "always" means "Liliana's power trumps everything else."

or

B) "Always" could instead be a restriction, stating that it's not optional, and the player must choose to use it whenever doing so is a legal play. So it's technically not quite as good as Brother Marcus's power, because if he randomly found some items or Event cards that boosted his Combat above his Spirit he could choose to roll his Combat instead. Spirited Strike, for example, is an Event card that adds your Spirit to your Combat for one attack. Under this interpretation, Marcus could use Spirited Attack to get a couple extra dice, but Liliana could not (it adds Spirit to Combat, but not the other way around).



So, there's at least these two ways to interpret "always". I'm leaning towards "B", personally.


I actually took it to be BOTH: That She ALWAYS uses it (overriding things that force her to use something else), but also that she ALWAYS uses it & can't choose. A Blessing & a Curse.


R_b_bergstrom wrote:
With that in mind, I went looking in the rulebook to see if there was anything in the book that either supported or undermined either (or both) of those interpretations. I found this on page 13 of the rulebook to The Coast. It's in the section entitled "Ghastly Horde" which gives instructions on how The Sunken Seven work.

Quote:
At the start of each Fight Round with the Villain, a Hero rolls to see what Skill they must use to fight with this round. The particular skill MUST be used, regardless of any Items or abilities the Hero has.


Note specifically the "regardless of any Items or abilities the Hero has" in that quote. I think that's every bit as crucial of a distinction as "always", as well as being a lot less ambiguous. To me, that sure seems like strong evidence that the "always" does NOT mean "Liliana's ability trumps everything else", because the Sunken Seven specifies that they trump all character abilities.


The thing is though, the added clause of "Regardless of Items or Abilities" is only in the Sunken Seven's "Ghastly Horde" VILLAIN ABILITY. On the individual Hauntings there are several "Must Use's" but no caveat of "Regardless" (if that makes sense), hence the room for doubt.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Yours is definitely one of two possible interpretations IMO.

Since the "Regardless" is only mentioned in the Villain ability "Ghastly Horde" my thinking is that's the only time it can be applied. It's part of the Villains special ability.

As Haunting, no exemption. So they force Heroes to use "X" instead of Combat, but Liliana ALWAYS uses Spirit, so her's trumps theirs.

This seems like a reasonable interpretation as well, as I can see how the Seven could be stronger together than separately (hence the "Regardless" as Villain, not as Haunting).

Or I could be wrong and just over thinking it. laugh
---MS



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