rain
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
entranced wrote:
I think PGA is the TGS Terraforming Guild "problem" all over again.

Terraforming Guild never bothered me that much, and as I said before, it balances the TGS environment.

entranced wrote:
Anytime i play PGA the air in the room changes.

For the record, this is pretty much always the case when PGA pops up, regardless of who has it. I just sigh internally. It's more obvious when PGA also means I will lose, but I feel it often too when it's in my own hand.

I quite liked PGA too. It is very interesting mechanically and thematically. But it is too strong. Perhaps if it only gave prestige for 6-devs (like FedCap)...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
ackmondual
United States
SoCal
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
FWIW, someone from the RftG team (ithink it was Tom Weihei IIRC) said that they considered removing the PP on PGA, but put it back after playtesting found that made it UNDERpowered wow

Kester wrote:
The important one for the OP:
Just play RvI. You don't have to use all the expansions. (I resent BoW a little, because I felt there was still a lot of RvI strategy space to explore when it came out - but people, being people, want to play with all the expansions. I still get RvI to the table occasionally, but less than I would've done if BoW didn't exist.)
Edit: Oops, I see you actually mentioned this and I totally failed to read it. But I'd still recommend it; whatever gets people playing.
It's too much work to fish out exp #3 cards. If we want a quick game, then we definitely won't have time to fish out exp #3 cards.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Brown
Australia
Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
mb
The general expectations for single-card balancing are extreme.

IRL we rarely play Brink, but we still removed PGR and Galactic Developers in RvI.

Goals are by far the swingiest strategic consideration in any competitive game; i find it incredible people love goals yet focus all their energies on PGA.

At this stage, I think customizing your own RFTG experience is almost mandatory. It's an ecosystem now, and I don't think you can dismiss the data. Work with it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Neuhaus
United States
New York
NY
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Goals are set up before the game starts, all players have access to them. PGA is not available to all players.

I would still love to see a board game balance's balance evolve based on 100s of thousands of games of hard data. I'd be happy to be the tech/stats side of that, if some skilled game designer wanted to try it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Serge
Canada
Vancouver
British Columbia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
rrenaud wrote:
I would still love to see a board game's balance evolve based on 100s of thousands of games of hard data. I'd be happy to be the tech/stats side of that, if some skilled game designer wanted to try it.

It could even be done with RftG itself, right now, using already existing tools (Keldon's AI). The idea was briefly mentioned in another thread: use randomly created cards. It would take very little modification to the code, just a module to generate the cards based on a list of existing powers and simple variations of them.

Throw that on a rftg server, like the one you are (were?) running, and voila.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Neuhaus
United States
New York
NY
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
That's a much crazier idea (I think I had it in 2009, I am sure others had it before me).


If Keldon's AI is good enough, you could go far beyond generating card names with a computer. You can generate reasonably balanced cards with attributes.

1. Generate a card with some random attributes.
2. Train the AI on the deck + your card
3. Compute the card's play rate/win frequency.
4. Automatically tweak as appriopriate (lower cost, remove/add attributes, increase card value..).
5. If play rate/win rate is unreasonable, go to 2.


Rather say say, replace Tom, I'd want to keep Tom and supplant or add to his local in person playtesting with a wider, computer based playtesting before the first printing of the game. This would probably help someone like Martin Wallace, who has epically screwed up game balance but managed to get a decent design, more than Tom, who manages to do the balance well.

Race is done and printed. It's too late.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
rain
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
As has been pointed out before, the cards are not supposed to be completely balanced. It makes the game more interesting and exciting since varied card balance allows for non-linear game results. Furthermore, it rewards taking a risk on spending your actions to search through the deck (e.g., I+5). It is also a sign of player skill that you are able to recognize the value of each card, particularly with regard to the current situation and your long-term plans.

Goals intensify this by changing the environment for each game. Players are required to re-evaluate cards based on the goals in addition to all other factors. I would not call them swingy at all, especially since you have two homeworlds to choose from. The right goals and starting hand can make Old Earth more playable than Separatist Colony, something that would rarely happen without them.

PGA being strong is not the problem. I think it is too strong, and likely it could be remedied by a small shift, such as only giving a PP for developments cost 3 or greater.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Brown
Australia
Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
mb
rrenaud wrote:
Goals are set up before the game starts, all players have access to them. PGA is not available to all players.


Rainstar wrote:

Goals intensify this by changing the environment for each game. Players are required to re-evaluate cards based on the goals in addition to all other factors. I would not call them swingy at all, especially since you have two homeworlds to choose from. The right goals and starting hand can make Old Earth more playable than Separatist Colony, something that would rarely happen without them.


Goals also reinforce already strong hands, like Prestige 3+ and Uplift Gene Breeders. It's a two-sided coin that I think is weighted heavily.

I play the majority of my games with goals, and even Brink, because that's what people think is more fun. However, I don't think it's even remotely close to the most competitive RFTG environment.

If you're trying to play Race to see who is the better player, Prestige and Goals skew the luck of the draw too much for me.

There's a world of difference between a contest and an enjoyable game, but I don't think Goals are fair at all (though I'm ready to concede they don't need to be).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Brown
Australia
Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
mb
rrenaud wrote:

Rather say say, replace Tom, I'd want to keep Tom and supplant or add to his local in person playtesting with a wider, computer based playtesting before the first printing of the game. This would probably help someone like Martin Wallace, who has epically screwed up game balance but managed to get a decent design, more than Tom, who manages to do the balance well.


I had high hopes David Sirlin would do this with his games, but I underestimated his ego. The basis of his designs are very clever, but his online persona and deliberate misrepresentation of data for Yomi really disappointed me.



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Smeding
Canada
St. Albert
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Warhammer wrote:
RFtG died out shortly after TBoW was released due to prestige. I was one of the big proponents of the game, and the last expansion killed the game for me.


I'm going to resurrect this thread. Recently my wife and I have decided to tackle RftG again. As already expressed from others, the introduction of prestiege really killed the game back in 2012. However, we didn't want to remove exp #3 and so I started a project to convert as many of the prestiege oriented cards to other mechanics already within the game.

So far....it's still in the test phase. BUT we are playing the game ALOT again.

I'll post some pictures of the changes I've made soon.

What I'm going to ask here is: If you've considered the replacemetn of prestiege with other elements of the game, what changes did you make? and why? and was it balanced?

Thanks
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mar hawkman
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The easy way to nerf prestige is to simply not have a prestige leader. Getting rid of the bonus you get for that is the easiest way to rebalance it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Prev «  1 , 2  | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.