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Subject: Talk me into (or out of) Dark Vengeance rss

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Green Dan
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So I keep getting tempted by Dark Vengeance. A little background. I used to play a bit of Rogue Trader. Haven't played 40k since then. I have recently started painting the minatures for the various Boardgames I have that include Minis. This has resulted in me walking into the local GW shop in search of paints. Which inevitably leads to me looking at the other stuff they do.
Dark Vengeance seems like quite a deal, given the number and quality of minis in the box, £61.50 from GW, but cheaper from online retailers seems like a pretty comporable price when looking at FFG games and the like.

So, how much 'game' is there in Dark Vengeance. How long will it take before I want to buy more stuff? How cost effective is that? Eg. I noticed in GW a Dreadnought for £25 (again, probably cheaper online). If you view a Dreadnought, or Squad of Dudes as an 'expansion' how does that work out? How Games Changing is a new bit of army?
Given that I don't ever want to play in a tournement I'm not really fussed about cribbing bits from other systems, modding and changing up stuff. How hard is that?
How difficult is it to get, say, a 4th or 5th edition codes and blend those rules with the 6th ed rules that come with Dark Vengeance?

Anything else I Should know/be asking?

(Assume I don't know anything about Minatures. If fact, don't assume. I don't know anything aobut minature gaming)
 
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Scott M.
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Im going to do the opposite...


I am a 25 year 40k player since rouge Trader days. Played 1st ed, skipped 2nd, then 3rd -6th(current)...

This is where it stopped. The prices for 40k make this game no longer viable. DV is a excellent buy.. and that's where it ends.

Today's prices are absolutely ridiculous for any past the starter game.
Land raiders $69 , 10 man squads $35... single figures fine cast for $20 - $30 dollars..

not counting the almost $100 rule book...

In the end, to have a starter army at today's prices your looking at over $700 just to get your foot int he door..

Sorry , im out..
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Robert Kuster
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I've been playing 40K since 2nd edition and Warhammer since 4th and although I am also a huge board game fan I have never lost my love for table top miniature games.

GW still makes some of the best minis in the world and their games (although I wish they still developed other games regularly)
are also some of the best.

Now I agree their prices are quite high especially here in Canada (not sure why when our dollar has such strength) but in comparison to other mini companies and even board games they are quite similar.

So it comes down to how much do you want to get back in the GW hobby, enjoying their minis, painting them and playing the game of course.

I think that the Dark Vengeance box set is very good value and the minis are fantastic. The new 40K rules are fun and very flexible to use and the small rulebook you get in the box is all you need and it's easier to carry around then the hard cover.

On your other questions I always suggest that you start slowly adding to either army that comes in the box, which ever one suits you more.
Marines are probably the most inexpensive armies to buy since you don't need as many models and Chaos Marines can be as well if you stick with
Chaos Space Marines.
Play small 500 point games to get the feel for the new rules and the armies then carefully decide what other elements you want to add and of course collect.

My 2 cents worth.
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John "Omega" Williams
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The last GW product I bought was a Keeper of Secrets since its one of only two GW product that they actually listened to one of my suggestions for way back. And it was absurdly priced. I dont like the new sculpts aside from rare individual cases and the cost jacks have reached lunatic levels.

According to one economic review of GW. Appears they have or had a view that people will buy less is the game if priced less. Also the company view towards the players has diminished more and more.
I really detest their "use and discard" mentality.

Theres other games out there better prices and with better looking minis.
I turned my attention to WarGods of Ægyptus as I got to playtest it in the early stages and the sculpts are equal to anything GW has put out.
 
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Green Dan
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How many points are in the dark vengeance box? How much more stuff would I need to make it up to around 1000 points for each army? I would probably be looking at owning two armies and then play 500 point games but with the flexibility of the higher points available. Does the mini rule book include point values for the other armies or are they only in codexs?
 
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Testy Testerson
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Warhammer 40k is one of the worst rule systems on the market today. You can literally see the way they tweak the numbers to drive new sales. Add garbage service, ridiculous prices, and some of the most unwelcoming gaming environments I've ever been to.

Play Warmachine/Hordes if you really want to play a miniatures game.
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Toco
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roberious wrote:

GW still makes some of the best minis in the world and their games (although I wish they still developed other games regularly)
are also some of the best.


I do not agree. Their Finecast is of the lowest quality. A lot of airbubbles in the sculpts. Many comments about this can be found online. If you price your product very high, then the quality must be very high too in my opinion. But this is NOT the case.
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Jim Patching
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Dark Vegeance (like most of the GW big box sets) is great value for what you get in it. If you can get a mate interested in giving 40K a go, the best way to go about it is for each of you to buy a DV set, pick an army each and swap out the models from each set that you're not going to use.

I play loads of different board games and RPGs but 40K gives me something none of those other games do. I like the whole aspect of creating my army myself, painting it myself, personalising it, building scenery. I've got a bunch of mates who are into it too and it's just a really good creative outlet. I'm sure you could get the same thing from any other miniatures game but I really like the background fluff for 40K and it's always easy to find other people who play the GW games (I've got half a dozen mates who play 40K but even if I didn't have that group handy I'd know easily where to go to find people who play 40K. For things like Hordes and Warmachine that get recommended so often I wouldn't have a clue where to find other players).

If you're not at all interested in the creative aspect of the game and only want to play it for the game itself I'd probably steer clear. There's nothing wrong with the game (and I think the current edition is the best yet) but on the other hand it's also not an out-standing ruleset and personally I wouldn't pay the high price just for the game itself.

Talking about the price, to get a large army would set you back a pretty penny. The way to go about it is to build your army slowly over time, don't splurge out a load of cash at the beginning. When people moan about the price of GW games I agree that they're expensive but then I always think "have you not seen the price hobby games go for in general?" I've just bought Mice & Mystics for £60. Great game but bloody expensive for what you get in it. I've also recently bought The One Ring RPG. Looks brilliant, but 40 quid for 2 soft back books! I've seen things like Wings of War and Bang expansions going for more than £20, and they're little more than a pack of cards. Hobby games are expensive and while GW products are definitely at the high end of the price scale I personally don't see GW stuff being much out of whack with everything else.

Not playing tournaments is the way to go with 40K as you'll avoid some of the douchebaggery that goes on with that scene.

Essentially 40K is a silly game best not taken too seriously and enjoyed with mates who aren't going to get nit picky over measurements or infuriated over bad dice rolls! Have a beer or two, chuck loads of dice, admire the scenery pieces that your mates have built or the creative paint jobs they've done and have fun.

If none of that sounds appealing give it a miss!
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Green Dan
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I am definatly drawn to the creative side of things. I am more excited by the 40k background than that of warmachine/hordes. I may look at Dust warfare, but the startup cost appears higher. As my wife is a gamer, I prefer the idea of owning 2 or three armies so we can play each other. What I Need to know is are the point costs for other armies in the core Rulebook or only codexs? I'm not adverse to proxying armies if there point values are available. I also assume the second hand value of older codexs are cheaper than the current edition, so are they compatible with the new rules?
 
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Italian Seismologist
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dude.. i would be interested in some sort of army based DnD stuff rather than 40k. would still allow for painting minis etc and the rules are already there built. there is no need to make characters up because there are millions of them already statted as NPCs so we could construct small armies/squads based on that.
 
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Green Dan
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femgoth wrote:
dude.. i would be interested in some sort of army based DnD stuff rather than 40k. would still allow for painting minis etc and the rules are already there built. there is no need to make characters up because there are millions of them already statted as NPCs so we could construct small armies/squads based on that.


Maybe, I prefer the 40k background though. I would find it eaaier to persuade Tarn into LOTR though. What system are you thinking?
 
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Italian Seismologist
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pathfinder would be a good choice. although 4th ed (while utter shit as a normal system) may be a good choice because it seems like it was built for the WoW lot.

they did actually bring out a D&D miniatures game but according to dave it wasnt very good.

still if you played D&D using basic character builds you could stand 5v5 pretty easily. the issue with scaling is it would take longer to play exponentially i think.. a 20v20 match would take a loooooong time. the rules are not that straight forward if you start taking spellcasting into account etc.. but it could work.

importantly it would allow for non-standard squad painting etc.. and you could easily pretend that dnd was LOTR.. just pitch humans and elves against goblins and orcs.. simples.
 
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Green Dan
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femgoth wrote:
pathfinder would be a good choice. although 4th ed (while utter shit as a normal system) may be a good choice because it seems like it was built for the WoW lot.

they did actually bring out a D&D miniatures game but according to dave it wasnt very good.

still if you played D&D using basic character builds you could stand 5v5 pretty easily. the issue with scaling is it would take longer to play exponentially i think.. a 20v20 match would take a loooooong time. the rules are not that straight forward if you start taking spellcasting into account etc.. but it could work.

importantly it would allow for non-standard squad painting etc.. and you could easily pretend that dnd was LOTR.. just pitch humans and elves against goblins and orcs.. simples.


Hmm...yeah I just prefer guns and tanks and stuff.
 
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Jim Patching
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Greendan wrote:
I am definatly drawn to the creative side of things. I am more excited by the 40k background than that of warmachine/hordes. I may look at Dust warfare, but the startup cost appears higher. As my wife is a gamer, I prefer the idea of owning 2 or three armies so we can play each other. What I Need to know is are the point costs for other armies in the core Rulebook or only codexs? I'm not adverse to proxying armies if there point values are available. I also assume the second hand value of older codexs are cheaper than the current edition, so are they compatible with the new rules?


I like the look of Dust Warfare, but then I've always liked big stompy walkers.

The points costs for 40K are in seperate codexs, they're not in the main rulebook. If you're just playing with friends and aren't too bothered about things being a bit un-balanced you could use old codexs without too much trouble. For a lot of armies, the 5th edition codex is still the current one as they haven't been updated yet. 4th edition codexs would probably work ok for friendly games.
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Jim Patching
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femgoth wrote:
pathfinder would be a good choice. although 4th ed (while utter shit as a normal system) may be a good choice because it seems like it was built for the WoW lot.

they did actually bring out a D&D miniatures game but according to dave it wasnt very good.

still if you played D&D using basic character builds you could stand 5v5 pretty easily. the issue with scaling is it would take longer to play exponentially i think.. a 20v20 match would take a loooooong time. the rules are not that straight forward if you start taking spellcasting into account etc.. but it could work.

importantly it would allow for non-standard squad painting etc.. and you could easily pretend that dnd was LOTR.. just pitch humans and elves against goblins and orcs.. simples.


Pathfinder would work well for very small skirmishes but for anything bigger than that it would be a bit of a drag. Could be a pain statting up figures too. It's an RPG so part of the fun of that is building up your character over time, adding abilities, tweaking things here and there. To go through all of that for every single participant in a one off fight would take a long time.

GW are about to announce a new minis game based on The Hobbit. I think the info is coming out this weekend. No idea what they're doing or if it'll be any good but if you're looking for a fantasy based minis war game might be worth at least waiting and seeing what they bring out. I guess it'll have some sort of big box starter thing.
 
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Italian Seismologist
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panzer-attack wrote:
femgoth wrote:
pathfinder would be a good choice. although 4th ed (while utter shit as a normal system) may be a good choice because it seems like it was built for the WoW lot.

they did actually bring out a D&D miniatures game but according to dave it wasnt very good.

still if you played D&D using basic character builds you could stand 5v5 pretty easily. the issue with scaling is it would take longer to play exponentially i think.. a 20v20 match would take a loooooong time. the rules are not that straight forward if you start taking spellcasting into account etc.. but it could work.

importantly it would allow for non-standard squad painting etc.. and you could easily pretend that dnd was LOTR.. just pitch humans and elves against goblins and orcs.. simples.


Pathfinder would work well for very small skirmishes but for anything bigger than that it would be a bit of a drag. Could be a pain statting up figures too. It's an RPG so part of the fun of that is building up your character over time, adding abilities, tweaking things here and there. To go through all of that for every single participant in a one off fight would take a long time.

GW are about to announce a new minis game based on The Hobbit. I think the info is coming out this weekend. No idea what they're doing or if it'll be any good but if you're looking for a fantasy based minis war game might be worth at least waiting and seeing what they bring out. I guess it'll have some sort of big box starter thing.


there are millions of prebuilt npcs out there, for everything from city watch to high end wizards, all nicely compressed into a little stat block.
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Chris Schafer
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AtomicReaction wrote:
Warhammer 40k is one of the worst rule systems on the market today. You can literally see the way they tweak the numbers to drive new sales. Add garbage service, ridiculous prices, and some of the most unwelcoming gaming environments I've ever been to.

Play Warmachine/Hordes if you really want to play a miniatures game.


I don't understand why people say gw prices are ridiculous and then recommend warma/hordes. I play both systems and it's easier for me to shell out $93 for my 46 Tyranids than it is to shell out $40 for my 4 menoth guys.
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Testy Testerson
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Time 2 Roll wrote:
AtomicReaction wrote:
Warhammer 40k is one of the worst rule systems on the market today. You can literally see the way they tweak the numbers to drive new sales. Add garbage service, ridiculous prices, and some of the most unwelcoming gaming environments I've ever been to.

Play Warmachine/Hordes if you really want to play a miniatures game.


I don't understand why people say gw prices are ridiculous and then recommend warma/hordes. I play both systems and it's easier for me to shell out $93 for my 46 Tyranids than it is to shell out $40 for my 4 menoth guys.


The amount of money you put into a standard army for Warmachine/Hordes has (in my experience) been less. Plus, even though buy-in prices are roughly analogous, Warmachine/Hordes can change your entire army's play style purely through a new 10 dollar caster. And not just "Pick a different school of magic" kind of change. Complete changeover of how your units are valued and what they do.

I spent maybe half the money I spent on Warhammer in order to buy my Everblight army for WM/H. In that time, I always felt like I could play completely different armies whenever I wanted to. With Warhammer, regardless of how I shimmied around weapon choices (which you can't do easily in stores because of WYSIWYG), I never got that feeling.
 
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Chris Schafer
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AtomicReaction wrote:
Time 2 Roll wrote:
AtomicReaction wrote:
Warhammer 40k is one of the worst rule systems on the market today. You can literally see the way they tweak the numbers to drive new sales. Add garbage service, ridiculous prices, and some of the most unwelcoming gaming environments I've ever been to.

Play Warmachine/Hordes if you really want to play a miniatures game.


I don't understand why people say gw prices are ridiculous and then recommend warma/hordes. I play both systems and it's easier for me to shell out $93 for my 46 Tyranids than it is to shell out $40 for my 4 menoth guys.


The amount of money you put into a standard army for Warmachine/Hordes has (in my experience) been less. Plus, even though buy-in prices are roughly analogous, Warmachine/Hordes can change your entire army's play style purely through a new 10 dollar caster. And not just "Pick a different school of magic" kind of change. Complete changeover of how your units are valued and what they do.

I spent maybe half the money I spent on Warhammer in order to buy my Everblight army for WM/H. In that time, I always felt like I could play completely different armies whenever I wanted to. With Warhammer, regardless of how I shimmied around weapon choices (which you can't do easily in stores because of WYSIWYG), I never got that feeling.



I agree with what you've said. Warma/hordes is cheaper on armies but it's apples/oranges because it is a much smaller game, one that is built to use fewer pieces and be more skirmish.

And I'm ok with that because it leaves room and reason for me to own both. Much to my wife's chagrin.
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Dave Langdon
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I played plenty of the last edition...and been dabbling since beaky marines and Rogue Trader.

After much thought I decided to invest in Bolt action instead, similar set up with ex GW influence, for considerably less money.

 
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I am really new to warhammer (DV came in the mail yesterday). Looking around I have to agree its friggen expensive, but it seems neat if you can budget your time and money well enough. The only issue is, it doesn't come with books, so I need to spend another 40 or 50 dollars just to see what I need to keep playing. And if its not worth continuing I am still out the combined 150 or so. Well Played GW.

The CSM codex is out already but you need to wait another few weeks to buy the DA codex. Because its not out yet and there is no sense in buying an old codex because it will just be out of date in 6 weeks.
 
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Played it last night with friends, worth every penny.
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Green Dan
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The Wife gave me DV for Xmas. So I'm in.
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Alex
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And?
How has hit gone?
Any regrets?
 
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Green Dan
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newsguy wrote:
And?
How has hit gone?
Any regrets?


Nope, no regrets. It's awesome. I've got the full rule book and the dark angels and chaos marine codex's. My brothers gone and got a tyranid army. My only regret is being 33 and still having to have to get 'sleep' if it wasn't for that, I'd have a lot more time for painting and playing!
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