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Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42» Forums » General

Subject: Multi-story Buildings rss

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Gerry M
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Hello:

I asked this over on Matrix first as I have the computer game. But maybe this is the best place to ask as this feature would have to be in the boardgame before it gets into the computer version?

If we are to have "proper" urban fighting like Stalingrad, etc. I think we need multi-story buildings (LOS from thrid floor ideas, etc.). Wondering if this is something that will be added to the games?

Thanks,

Gerry
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Lewis Karl
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Multi-story buildings would be nice. You're probably right though that rules should be fleshed out in the board game first, if the games are to stay connected in the future.

This brings to mind the old computer game, Combat Mission, which was to some degree the computer counterpart of Advanced Squad Leader. (I guess Close Combat is the Matrix equivalent?). In one scenario I remember German heavy weapons firing from third floor windows as my dauntless infantry squads scurried down the road towards the town center. A similarly placed anti-tank gun took out my tank. They had LOS over some of the lower one-story buildings.

 
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Tim Goose
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The rules already allow for Ground level (L0) and Level 1 and 2 hills (L1 and L2), with trees adding an extra level (so a level 1 hill with trees is in effect level 2) and smoke adding 2 levels. I think all the buildings currently count as 1 level high, but I see no reason why the line of sight rules won't work with buildings that are 2 or more levels high.
 
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Thierry Mattray
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I think there is still such rules in a ff, with fog and a MG on a L2 bell-tower.
But i can't remember which one. Perhaps a bonus firefight on academy games website...
 
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Lewis Karl
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I think the issue is combat within the same hex but on different levels of the building. Rules must deal with whether this is close combat or not. In some games, each level is like a different hex and levels may or may not have LOS to each other.

I'm sure there are other issues as well.
 
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uwe eickert
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We have discussed this internally in great detail. A squad will usually disperse in a multi-story building. Some taking high vantage points in 2nd and 3rd floors, while others will guard the ground floor. So holding a multi-story building increases LOS, that is a given. But does it increase firepower, which may now be more dispersed? Does it lower CC firepower, since fewer units are available on the ground floors to defend against concentrated assaults? Or do we treat the building as a complete feature and increase CC defense due to the nature of having to fight one's way up multiple stories? I would say that treating individual stories like separate hexes does not make sense to me, when looked at in the context of applied firepower.

I would be interested in your view points.

Thanks,
Uwe
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Gerry M
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Interesting Uwe. Looks like you are looking for an abstracted solution. How would you give a unit the LOS benefit of being on the 3rd floor and at the same time have them be on the ground floor to engage in CC?

For example one could say that if the barbarians are entering the ground floor the squad would have to defend against that in RL. So they would lose any LOS benefit from having a 3rd floor if an enemy was in CC with them or adjacent?

I am not very good at this stuff but I am sure others will have neat ideas.

Gerry

 
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uwe eickert
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The squad fights as a unit and when occupying a building has LOS efficiency, defensive bonus, and Fire power deficiency. I am still working this one out for the Stalingrad game, where it will be very important.

Also in development, sewer movement, attic hidden movement, etc.
 
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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Quote:
We have discussed this internally in great detail. A squad will usually disperse in a multi-story building. Some taking high vantage points in 2nd and 3rd floors, while others will guard the ground floor. So holding a multi-story building increases LOS, that is a given. But does it increase firepower, which may now be more dispersed? Does it lower CC firepower, since fewer units are available on the ground floors to defend against concentrated assaults? Or do we treat the building as a complete feature and increase CC defense due to the nature of having to fight one's way up multiple stories? I would say that treating individual stories like separate hexes does not make sense to me, when looked at in the context of applied firepower.


It seems more CoH-like to treat the entire building hex as one location, as the alternative requires markers.

I would say increased defense compared to small buildings. For example +3. This should also apply to close combat

Increased firepower, say +1 as it is similar to being uphill but with even better protected firing positions, so this more than compensates for the dispersion of the men. The same applies vs close combat as the small stairways and corridors make up for the dispersion.

The increased LoS from being higher up also makes sense but have the unfortunate side effect of making them more vulnerable as well as units are also spotted by units who are only able to see the top floors.
 
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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Quote:
sewer movement, attic hidden movement, etc.


Hopefully these will be included as scenario special rules, and not "standard rules"
 
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Dean halley

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Here is a thought on this subject off of the top of my head. What about making really tall buildings two levels (i.e., more than three floors), and using floor counters to show if a squad is in the upper part of the building(ala ASL)? It would cost the normal building movement cost to move from one level to another, units on each level would receive the building's DM, and units in the building would have to be at the same level for close combat.

Brian,
I imagine that new rules for Stalingrad will be included in the firefight book as official rules for that game. That would be more efficient for example than including the same sewer movement rule in every firefight where it can be used. I recommend this approach for Guadalcanal, but Uwe will have the final say on this. :D

take care,
Dean
 
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uwe eickert
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Dean, I disagree with SL in this respect. Doctrine does not bunch an entire squad on the 2nd or 3rd floor. Most of the team is deployed on the ground floor for defense, with the rest in the top floors - usually MG, snipers or AT teams.
 
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Gerry M
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Hello Uwe:

By "LOS efficiency" do you mean some mechanism to use LOS as if they were on a higher floor?

Thanks,

Gerry

uweeickert wrote:
The squad fights as a unit and when occupying a building has LOS efficiency, defensive bonus, and Fire power deficiency. I am still working this one out for the Stalingrad game, where it will be very important.

Also in development, sewer movement, attic hidden movement, etc.
 
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uwe eickert
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Yes, this is correct, since there are multiple angles of attack.
Thoughts?
 
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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Will firepower be decreased for units in multi-story buildings?

I understand your argument about dispersion but would think that thos would be (perhaps more than) made up by the multitude, and higher location, of firing positions of at least some elements of the squad, so a +0 or even a +1 would make more sense to me.
 
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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It makes perfect sense that units in tall buildings can spot from the upper floors, but the opposite does not always make sense, as it can make tall buildings vulnerable locations as units in them can be easily spotted.
 
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Gerry M
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Hello:

Some thoughts.

Say a unit in a building with 3 floors. You are saying they will be able to see a unit 5 hexes away for example even if there are some intervening buildings (would use current COH LOS calculations I assume). I think the enemy should also see them (usually LOS is reciprocal).

Now if that enemy is still 5 hexes away, but another enemy moves adjacent or 1 hex away I think this would change the thinking of the units in the 3-floor building. They should only be able to fire at the nearby enemy but could still see the enemy unit 5 hexes away? (Helps the commander with battlefield awareness.)

In terms of stacking: if you have n squads in a 3 floor building, and they are hit, maybe only 1/3 of them (rounded) suffer from the hit to indicate dispersion of the 3 squads (or 1/2 affected in a 2-floor building).

I played ASL and loved it but the rules are so complex even master players cannot agree on an interpretation sometimes. And stacking in 3-level buildings got pretty crazy. So I like COH's abstracted approach. Looking forward to seeing what ye are doing in Stalingrad...

Gerry
 
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Chris K.
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So ... reading all your thoughts on it, here's my take for handling a unit in a multi-story building.
It makes the assumption that standard doctrine of dispersing in the building is always used, unless you are only moving through a building to get to another position.

Firing out of the building
LOS: you may use LOS from any level of the building desired (edit asks: including elevation bonus maybe?)

For every level of the building that does not have LOS to your target, receive a -1 FP modifier, since you cannot bring all your firepower to bear on the target.

Firing at units in the building:
LOS: you may use LOS to any level of the building

For every level of the building that your firing unit does not have LOS to raise the cover bonus by +1, since only part of the squad is a valid target.


Moving through buildings:
Since your unit will probably not disperse if it's only moving through, you may declare that they are "on the move". (Similar to declaring cautious moving in the open but without any extra cost)
This means that the unit is for all intents and purposes only on the level that they entered the building on (ground floor or attic level normally) but may only use move or pivot as its next action.


Edit says: I am not sure if this appropriately models units with only a few members or high firepower pieces of equipment like ATG and HMG/LMG Squads. On the other hand they are already less affected by the -1 FP, since they start out with a higher FP and the extra defense may be indicative of how much harder they are to spot in a building.

Edit also says: this rule should only apply to units that can reasonably set up in higher floors. A big ATG probably can't. So only infantry (red movement) with a move cost of 1 or 2 maybe?
 
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Dean halley

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Christopher,
I like what you have written. Its much better than my lame SL reference. Someday I will get SL/ASL completely out of my system.

Take care,
Dean
 
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uwe eickert
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Dean, won't ever happen! It is ingrained in us, like Sunday school! LOL.
 
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