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I hope this question doesn't inspire a mob mentality against me, I am simply asking out of curiosity. It appears there have been many variants for this game. I really like how it feels like a miniatures game, and I like the way that players are choosing what units not to take into the game each round with the forced discard. It almost is a way that it feels like the game has army building during the game.

Now, unlike many minis games though, this does not have any dice rolling. What would happen to the game if instead of making an automatic hit, units went in normal turn order, but a dice roll would determine if each attack was successful. For instance, on a six sided die, hits happen on a 3+, meaning there is a 67% chance of hit every round. would this make the game more awesome or absolutely sucky?
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The game would lose 100% of its current following overnight.

NH is very much like a puzzle game. Half the skill is being able to determine the outcome of every fight before it occurs and not overlooking that init 3 shooter that will mess up your carefully laid plan.

Every little piece can have a drastic change on the outcome of the entire battle and a single failed hit can be the difference between a successfully warding off a massive attack against your HQ and losing the game.

Make the hits random and you make the careful plans of cause and effect pointless and would make it a very different game, probably not one that would appeal to the people who currently like it.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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Neuroshima Hex! is a very tight design, and I seriously doubt that tinkering would improve it. Maybe Manoeuvre would suit you better.
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It's hard to type holding torch and pitchfork, but actually you can easily answer the question yourself. Take a diceless miniatures skirmish system, like Chess, and add dice to it. If you find it intriguing, then by all means, try the dice variant with NH, and let us know how it went.

It won't be Neuroshima Hex anymore, but maybe you will come up some interesting new game, borrowing components from NH.
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Russ Williams
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What they said. The way the combat system works now is an enjoyable feature, not a bug.

Plus:

The proposal would change the game flow. E.g. many more pieces would remain in play after battles, presumably causing more frequent battles from the board filling up more often. A fuller board means fewer placement options, possibly more stagnation.

If the motivation is to introduce randomness and uncertainty to make NH more "realistic" (i.e. "real battles are random and uncertain", the usual wargamer complaint against games with no randomness), note that NH already has plenty of randomness and uncertainty with the drawing of your tiles each turn.

So what is the concrete motivation for adding more randomness? "To make combat resolution work more like a miniatures game" isn't a sufficiently compelling reason for me.
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Russ Williams
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ldsdbomber wrote:
There's never ever been a suggestion of any variant in any game in the history of mankind without half a dozen grouches coming in telling you "what's what"

...

(though you'll find the same faces coming into these threads time and time again to "tell you" what you can and can't do with your box of cardboard bits).

WTF, Lee?

Yeah, how grouchy and arrogant of people to actually respond to someone's request for their thoughts on a proposed game change.


It is much more polite and respectful to tell the person to "grow a pair".
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Russ Williams
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ldsdbomber wrote:
I just don't understand why people come to ask permission to try a new idea in the first place, or why they feel the need to get authorisation from someone else in the second place, or why they don't just try it in the third place and let us know how they liked it.

I certainly didn't interpret the OP as requesting permission, and I'm sure the poster would be surprised that you characterize him as requesting permission... I'm pretty sure we're all aware that we are free to play games with house rules.

Quote:
But most of all I just find it tiring that in 99.9999995456343%* of cases it's the same handful of people basically saying poo poo to you, you can't do it, it breaks the game, blah blah blah, design this, design that, doesn't work for me.

If you're tired of seeing the same people post, well, sorry... Try recruiting more BGG members, or frequenting other sites. Meanwhile, revel in the tiring irony that also you are a frequent poster...

Quote:
I don't get what that's got to do with it

I don't get why you don't get it. Someone makes a post asking for what people think, and people tell what they think.

Do you prefer that nobody respond than that we give our honest feedback?

Quote:
every reply thus far has said no he can't do it and it would ruin the game. How the hell do they know if it ruins the game FOR HIM? They don't.

Who said he can't do it?
Who said it would ruin the game FOR HIM?

If I made such a post, I'd sure rather get critical comments pointing out possible problems I might not have thought of, than get no comments, or just get "sounds good, go for it" comments.

Quote:
I don't think the WTF should be aimed at me to be honest.

Yesterday and today you posted a mocking/disapproving/aggressive post right after a post of mine. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but I begin to wonder why I am on your shit list.

Quote:
nb: do not ask for opinions on BGG because its not possible for the "authorities" to reply with ideas or encouragement or suggestions, instead they will just tell you to try another game, or that you'll break the original game or THEY wouldn't do this (LOL) etc etc...


"Variant" discussions sit in the same box as negative reviews. Generally not allowed, but instead will be shot down by the mob pretending to be the almight word of cardboard truth from above. Nonsense, and I'm going to continue to call it out. YMMV. I don't claim my opinion to be more valid or interesting or authoritative than anyone elses. But I say "find out for yourself" and don't waste your time looking for encouragement here. Check out any of the other 14,000,000* times someone has posted about tweaking any boardgame

* non scientific analysis

And you're accusing me of being grouchy and telling people what to do?

You seem to enjoy making wild accusatory generalizations in stormy righteous indignation, then to claim plausible deniability with "* non scientific analysis" disclaimers, but just look here in Neuroshima Hex's Variant forum, for example, and you'll find many threads which don't go as you claim.

There seem several types of variant threads from what I've seen:

1. Someone posts a spontaneous idea which just occurred to them about a game in which they have little experience, and asks for feedback. This is indeed more likely to get negative feedback.

If it radically changes the game, then it seems only natural that there would be negative feedback that it's not in the spirit of the game. E.g. if someone posted some random bluffing party game which happens to use chess pieces in the Chess variant forum, people would probably (quite validly) respond "It might be a fun party game, but it sure isn't Chess any more; it doesn't really make sense to call it a Chess variant".

(And then negative feedback sometimes attracts righteously indignant reproaching meta-comments like yours, even though the poster asked for feedback.)

2. A player posts a variant which they have playtested, found to be interesting and clearly documented, and hope others might try. This often gets positive reactions and thanks. I can give you plenty of examples of this allegedly rare phenomenon, but I think if you're honest you can easily find plenty yourself.

3. Someone experienced in a game posts a proposal they've thought about and which seems in the spirit of the game. This often results in further discussion and exploration of ideas.
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to the OP: you should try Summoner Wars if you haven't already. It fits a number of the gameplay features you said you're looking for.
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ldsdbomber wrote:
whatever, I've no interest in exchanging quote bombs in a nerd shootout. None of the replies encouraged the OP to give it a go, THEY NEVER DO, no, no, a boardgame is like some kind of religious experience that must not be tampered with. Do with it what you want. Clearly if you don't feel it should be changed, there's little utility in replying. You're all smart enough to realise that such posts are looking for enabling criticism and ideas and not basically being told the whole idea is pointless which is the tone here.

and with that, I'll step out for the nominated never wrong crowd to continue to flail away pedantically picking apart word by word to ascend to their throne once again.

I chose to sit back and watch as this thread unfolded because I don't like making rules changes to games. Neuroshima Hex is fine as it is, and I don't have the time or the desire to add dice to the game when that was not the designer's intent. There are so many games out there and its hard enough to remember how the games are SUPPOSED to be played. We have a friend who analyzes every game, which end analysis reveals most games are garbage and not worthy of the effort. He then goes on to find the game's fault and fixes it. From then on, whenever we play that game WITH HIM we must incorporate the new policy. I can't stand that! I want to play the game as written, or play something else. It's difficult enough to attend a gaming event and remember the rules to a day-full of games and be ready to make adhoc changes along the way to satisfy someone else's dissatisfaction with games as is.

My favorite game (Chess) is that way. It is complex enough, the rules work great, I have no need for the endless alterations people want to add to make the game different. It doesn't need any changes.

The whole thing comes down to whether you are a meat and potatoes man, or if you like a choice of peanut or cucumber dipping sauce with your Satay? (In the end, I only included that line because it was the first thing that came to mind when I finished reading the thread.)

Just realize you (Lee) were the first one to raise the gun and come out shooting. And, the poster was not the one who started expanding an argument about house rules in general, or whether its acceptable in the realm to make any changes to game rules or not. His question was about the specifics of adding dice to Neuroshima Hex. Others replied with answers to his question specifically. They may have disagreed with your take on it, but that's okay. "Try it yourself" is probably not the answer he was looking for. I think your supposition that he was seeking our permission to do it is purely insulting. In the end, your arguments seem to have shut the whole thread down.

I only hope these comments put the issue back on track. It was not my intention to spread flames on an already burning ship. I'll go away now.
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Wow, I guess I should clarify a few points.

1. Despite the anger thrown between a few people here, I do appreciate all points.

2. The disclaimer at the beginning of the thread was because I have seen a few posts on this site get out of hand from a simple suggestion. I have seen people be cussed out, have their integrity questioned, etc for relatively simple things. The internet always brings out the best in people, right....

3. I have played Neuroshima Hex before, but it was the free version on my Android phone, so I have not had the chance to try the dice variant.

4. I actually do appreciate the two suggestions given in this thread for Summoner Wars and Manoeuvere. Those look like unique games. The do not interest me as much as Neuroshima Hex though because they are two players only.

5. I am fully aware I do not need permission to try this, and even if I had never posted this, I would. I don't see this variant extending the game more than an hour, so it was something I knew I could do. My goal was simply to generate a discussion.

In Russ's list of ways people post variants, I must admit I do fall under category one most of the time. I also thought up a Carcassonne variant using a time track similar to Glen More for tile selection which I posted about even though I haven't had the chance to actually try it.

Nevertheless, I hope you all will be glad to know that whether the dice variant adds enough fun for me to try it more than once, I have still ordered the game and the two main expansions. I'm looking forward to playing it. Happy gaming!
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Have you actually tried that Carcassonne variant? It sounds interesting.

Also, "quote bombs in a nerd shootout" is funny, and I personally appreciate the posters who suggested other games that might work for the OP.
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mikeweeney wrote:
Have you actually tried that Carcassonne variant? It sounds interesting.
I do not own a copy of the game, and at the last gathering I went to, nobody had a copy of Carc, so I wasn't able to try it. I will post how it goes in the thread I started on that forum though when I get the chance. I really like the time track mechanic in Glen More. It is almost like an advanced worker placement mechanic. I wonder if it would fix the randomness complaint many seem to have about Carcassonne.
 
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There must have been a moment at the beginning, where we could have said no. Somehow we missed it. Well, we'll know better next time.
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Midaga wrote:
Take a diceless miniatures skirmish system, like Chess, and add dice to it. If you find it intriguing, then by all means, try the dice variant with NH, and let us know how it went.


And just to note that at least has already been done and with some amount of success, so if you wanted to try with a developed set of rules (the Chess of course, not the NH):

http://www.shadowhex.com/
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I just realized part of the drama in this thread was entirely caused by my lack of a full explanation about the motivation for the topic of my post. I do not think a dice will add any balance to Neuroshima Hex. In fact, I believe it will do the opposite, and make the game unbalanced in favor of those who have good rolls. That unbalance though is the source of a lot of the excitement in many Ameritrash games that I have enjoyed playing in the past. The whole idea behind the dice variant was in fact to make the game a bit more of a roller coaster, adding uncertainty to the battles, so the game would be a bit more of a ride for the players playing. I hope that clears up any confusion.
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ldsdbomber wrote:
None of the replies encouraged the OP to give it a go, THEY NEVER DO, no, no, a boardgame is like some kind of religious experience that must not be tampered with.

Midaga's post, the third reply, encourages the OP to give it a try.

In general, I agree that variant suggestions on BGG are sometimes met with unnecessary hostility. But the Neuroshima Hex forum seems a strange place to go off the rails about it. This forum has a ton of very well-received home brew armies, which often tweak the rules significantly. One of these (The Dancer) has even gone on to become an official army!
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Team D20 wrote:
4. I actually do appreciate the two suggestions given in this thread for Summoner Wars and Manoeuvere. Those look like unique games. The do not interest me as much as Neuroshima Hex though because they are two players only.


Just a warning for you: most people like this a LOT more with 2 players. In fact, I love this game with 2 players, but will barely give it a second thought if looking for a 3+ player game. If you want a game that works well with more than two then this might not be the best choice.
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Pintsizepete wrote:
Team D20 wrote:
4. I actually do appreciate the two suggestions given in this thread for Summoner Wars and Manoeuvere. Those look like unique games. The do not interest me as much as Neuroshima Hex though because they are two players only.


Just a warning for you: most people like this a LOT more with 2 players. In fact, I love this game with 2 players, but will barely give it a second thought if looking for a 3+ player game. If you want a game that works well with more than two then this might not be the best choice.
I had heard that before making the purchase. I made sure to look through the forums. I really like the various ways people have made the three player game work, whether it is through points gained for each attack, or only going after the player on one's right/left. I appreciate the warning though.
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Bern Harkins
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NH has become our go-to 3 player game, and we are very happy with the experience.
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