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Subject: Question about harvesting and storage rss

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Joe Salamone
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Assume I have the following tiles on my board:

4 fields
1 farm (with no food cubes on it)
2 militia (with no food cubes on them)

If I play a Harvest action, am I allowed to do all of these things as part of the same action:

- Harvest 2 food cubes and put them on my farm
- Move the 2 food cubes from my farm to my 2 militia
- Harvest 2 more food cubes (for a total of 4, as allowed by my 4 fields)
- Store the additional 2 cubes on my farm

Or am I limited to harvesting only 2 food cubes because I only have 1 farm with 2 storage spaces?

 
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Russ Williams
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FWIW I assume that in
rules, bottom of page 2 wrote:
Note: You may move matching cubes at any time from farms, banks, and the church to condottiere and militia tokens.

we are meant to interpret "at any time" (printed in bold) literally, i.e. including while producing food.

I also notice that the description of the harvest action in the rules says "Take as many food cubes from the stock as there are field tokens in your principality and place them in your principality." I suppose it would have said specifically "place them in your farms" if you weren't allowed to move them to militia units while harvesting.

But I'm not sure.
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Joe Salamone
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russ wrote:
FWIW I assume that in
rules, bottom of page 2 wrote:
Note: You may move matching cubes at any time from farms, banks, and the church to condottiere and militia tokens.

we are meant to interpret "at any time" (printed in bold) literally, i.e. including while producing food.

I also notice that the description of the harvest action in the rules says "Take as many food cubes from the stock as there are field tokens in your principality and place them in your principality." I suppose it would have said specifically "place them in your farms" if you weren't allowed to move them to militia units while harvesting.

But I'm not sure.


I think your interpretation makes sense. Also, page 2 says, "The wooden cubes that you receive during the game are also allocated to places where they have to be stored." Farms AND militia are in the list of these "storage places." My initial confusion was whether you needed to store food cubes on farms (at least for a brief moment) before moving them to militia tiles. So, I thought if you harvested 4 food, but had only 2 food spaces available on farms, you would lose the excess food (because there was no place to store it before sending it to your militia). However, after reading your response and reading the rules more carefully, I interpret the rules to mean you only lose excess food if there is not enough space on your farms AND militia combined. Thanks for your quick response.

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George
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I 'm not so sure. What you two suggest, while not contradictory to the rules, seems like an abuse to me. I think that by "at any time", we should interpret it as "between actions" and not as "an action within another action". In this way, firstly the Harvest is used (giving only 2 cubes, since there are not enough farms to store them - think of it as an excess in crops) and then the cubes are transferred to the militia to feed them.
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Russ Williams
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Serazu wrote:
I 'm not so sure. What you two suggest, while not contradictory to the rules, seems like an abuse to me. I think that by "at any time", we should interpret it as "between actions" and not as "an action within another action".

Well, it's a moot point, in fact, since if you look at page 2 ("The wooden cubes that you receive during the game are also allocated to places where they have to be stored"), it mentions militias and condottieres in addition to farms and banks! I don't see how there can be any doubt that the cubes you produce can go directly to militias and condottieres.
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George
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What's the point of having farms and banks then if they can be substituted by the militia and the condottieres who -now- double both as storage tiles and army units?
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Russ Williams
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Serazu wrote:
What's the point of having farms and banks then if they can be substituted by the militia and the condottieres who -now- double both as storage tiles and army units?

Militia and condottieres do not double as storage units. Read page 2 again. "You may move matching cubes at any time from farms, banks, and the church to condottiere and militia tokens. But you are not allowed to remove cubes from condottiere and militia tokens."

Also even if they were storage facilities (which they're not), you might fill them up, so farms and banks would be useful in that case instead of losing your excess production.
 
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George
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Note that, if we follow your pattern of thinking, militia and condottieres can now get purple cubes as well, since the rules state that the latter are abstractly placed in our principality and the diagram on page 2 shows the purple icon in army units as well.

I do not like that. I believe that the army units should only take cubes via the farms, the banks and the church. They seriously overshadow the other tokens in the other way.
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Russ Williams
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Serazu wrote:
Note that, if we follow your pattern of thinking, militia and condottieres can now get purple cubes as well, since the rules state that the latter are abstractly placed in our principality and the diagram on page 2 shows the purple icon in army units as well.

Yes indeed.

Quote:
I do not like that. I believe that the army units should only take cubes via the farms, the banks and the church. They seriously overshadow the other tokens in the other way.

Why do you believe that? The rules don't seem to support your interpretation. They make it quite clear, it seems to me.

If it was intended that harvested green cubes have to go to farms, and only later (after the harvest) you can move them to militias, then why does the Harvest description say:

the rules as written wrote:
Take as many food cubes from the stock as there are field tokens in your principality and place them in your principality.

instead of
not the rules wrote:
Take as many food cubes from the stock as there are field tokens in your principality and place them on your farms.
?
 
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George
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Ok, you got your point and is a strong one. I 'm just saying that this way I find the army units overpowered next to the rest of the tokens. I believe that my interpretation (which is not supported by the rules - I 'm aware of it) would make the game more balanced. The way things stand now looks like an endless "get lots of soldiers - collect cubes - get more soldiers - collect more cubes and so on" loop.
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Russ Williams
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Serazu wrote:
Ok, you got your point and is a strong one. I 'm just saying that this way I find the army units overpowered next to the rest of the tokens. I believe that my interpretation (which is not supported by the rules - I 'm aware of it) would make the game more balanced. The way things stand now looks like an endless "get lots of soldiers - collect cubes - get more soldiers - collect more cubes and so on" loop.

Have you played the game much, or are you just theorizing? Having tons of soldiers with cubes does not guarantee a win. It means you're not using those cubes for other points.
 
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George
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Just theorizing.
 
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will sargent
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Good debate guys, but I don't think it's right to allow food cubes to be slipped across to military in the same harvesting action. I agree that soldiers can be fed at 'any' time, but this is 'in the middle' of a drawing cube action, if you know what I mean.

I might be wrong, but pulling cubes straight into soldiers just doesn't feel right to me. They should be fed once cubes are in place on those hard-earned farms. Justifying this because they're in 'the principality' is a stretch of the rules too far IMHO.

Great game, though. Simple at first, but when the rules are down it's actually quite a jaunt. The only weak aspect is the boring 'compare your neighbour's' military scoring. I use a Kingsburg-like variant for war which gives a random army to fight to keep the 'oohs' and 'ahhs' flowing.
 
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Joe Salamone
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willsargent wrote:
Good debate guys, but I don't think it's right to allow food cubes to be slipped across to military in the same harvesting action. I agree that soldiers can be fed at 'any' time, but this is 'in the middle' of a drawing cube action, if you know what I mean.

I might be wrong, but pulling cubes straight into soldiers just doesn't feel right to me. They should be fed once cubes are in place on those hard-earned farms. Justifying this because they're in 'the principality' is a stretch of the rules too far IMHO.



It is definitely a tougher game if you cannot allocate food directly to military. I haven't played this game in a long time, but I believe that's the way I originally played it, but then switched after I read some of the comments above. Now, I don't know what to do!

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will sargent
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I played again yesterday and then thought maybe it would be cool to slip those cubes onto soldiers and knights, but I decided to stick with farms and banks only in the end. I suppose as long as all are doing the same thing it shouldn't matter.

A little solo variant for practise sessions - 4 cards on central display, ditch 3 each turn (using 2p card quantity). Roll D6 for military to beat for first three military checks, then 2D6 for final 3. 5VP if equal or win against 'D6 srmy', -5VP for lose. Good fun.
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