$10.00
Recommend
7 
 Thumb up
 Hide
45 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Lost Wonders (fan expansion for 7 Wonders)» Forums » General

Subject: What do people think of Lost Wonders? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Tom Hazel
United States
Sammamish
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
With Lost Wonders out, I am wondering what people think are:

Favorite Boards and Why

Least Favorite Boards and Why

What people think of the release? Would you tell others to get a copy?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Wilson
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Haven't played with any of the wonders, but I downloaded the rulebook to take a look at it.

Clearly a lot of work has gone into it. There are interesting ideas, some very neat graphical design, very good artwork.

But there are also a lot of fiddly new mechanics, a lot of messing with existing rules or conventions (a lot of the A-sides don't go 3- something-7), some wonders that seem over- or under-powered, a couple that seem like they'd be really painful to play. I think there are too many wonders that don't have a starting resource or other benefit to their neighbours (some even have a penalty) and too many weak/negative first stages 'balanced' by a strong third stage or later payoff.

Specific feedback:

Angkor Wat: Seems underpowered. First stage of A is fiddly and is probably only going to save you a few coins. First stage of B doesn't make sense; each stage should just have a 1-debt.

Antioch: No real issues. B-side is massively variable, though. I think I'd prefer A most of the time.

Atlantis: Very variable B-side again. Can be completely derailed through lack of a single resource.

Babel: Fourth stage shouldn't require two glass when the wonder doesn't provide glass. A-side is unlikely to match, say, Giza A. With the right yellow cards or the Architect's Cabinet, B-side could be worth huge points.

Beiping: Not sure how strong the A-side middle stage is. B-side involves a lot of fiddling around with tokens, and is hugely dependent on getting a double-brick resource.

Brigadoon: Automatic Bilkis is good. Phasing seems like a pain. VPs are very high.

Capua: Third stage of A seems weak. First stage of B is really weak, and just helps people who aren't next to Capua. Third stage of B is potentially massive, but to get a decent return from it you need to make highly-inefficient play.

Caylus: The first stage is a fiddly pain. Fourth stage is potentially huge but draw-dependent.

Chichen Itza: Interesting. Sucks to be a neighbour, though.

Citadels: It doesn't use its own resource at all? It can be built in any order? Weird. The assassin, magician, diplomat and sorceress are horrible. Navigator is awkward. I'd never use this wonder.

Dominion: Sucks to be a neighbour, think it's too much effort on being clever. Second stages are a fiddly mess. Third stage of B is potentially good depending on draw, fourth stage is obviously good, but not sure it makes up for that first stage.

Doppelwonder: Eh.

El Dorado: Sucks to be a neighbour. B-side 'resource' is fiddly. First stage of A is painfully bad.

Helvetia: Being automatically out of all fighting sucks. I don't think the rewards for red cards make up for them being worthless otherwise.

Ithaca: I don't know enough about Myths to comment on this one.

Lhasa: A-side is fine. First stage of B is a bit fiddly but okay. Third stage is a massive pain; like working out science wasn't bad enough anyway.

Nomads: Weak and a massive disruption in the middle of the game. Sucks to be a neighbour, obviously.

Persepolis: Sucks to be a neighbour. Starting 'resource' is fiddly. B-side is really luck-dependent.

R'lyeh: A-side is really weak. B-side is odd, doesn't seem great but I'd have to try it to judge it.

Rapa Nui: Odd. Interesting, but I haven't played the team game. Seems weak overall, just changing the costs of cards.

Roll: Sucks to be a neighbour. The dice stage is on average weak for the second stage of A, it's really poor for the third stage of B. The description of B says that the second stage provides a raw resource but the icon has silk instead of gold; is that deliberate? If the icon's wrong, then the final stage shouldn't require two silk. The iconography for the first stage of B is wrong, it should just have a shield at each stage.

Thermopylae: Really sucks to be neighbour. A-side isn't bad. B-side is a fiddly mess.

Tartarus: A is pretty poor, I think. B is good; do whatever you like and have a solid escape-hatch any time you don't have a strong play in the third age.

Temporal Paradox: Eh.

Uruk: Solid enough. Sucks for Halikarnassus and Babylon if Uruk B's in the game, though. And Solomon becomes a terrible pick, but that's less of an issue.

Venice: Fiddly but seems like it works.

Yamato: Fiddly, seems weak, basically just changing the cost of the cards used to build it.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shima Tetsuo
Switzerland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow, I'm always impressed by the huge amount of energy that some people can use to give negative impressions without even having tried the expansion...

I knew that we wouldn't been able to satisfy everyone... The goal was that maybe 2 or 3 boards were touching some players heart. I'm already glad we succeed to get such nice comments as "interesting ideas, neat graphical design, good artwork"... ("Always look on the bright side of life" said some famous english gentlemen that I really like.)

Oh, and please don't try Myths or even take a look at it ! It's a fiddly, fiddly, sucking, fiddly, sucking, sucking and especially fiddly expansion I made.. I'm really, truly and deeply sorry for that.


Anyway...

I may have created a lot of these board but it doesn't mean I don't have an opinion about them.

Top 3 :
Antiocheia B : finally a board that gives you a correct chance of winning if you focus on yellow cards. And when you get money, you really get a lot of money !
Persepolis B : yeah it can be a little hazardous, but I'm a true fan of the Cities expansion and this board allows to have a little more of these dreadful black cards...
Helvetia A : easy to play and having eternal peace is great for hippies like me, even if you need some useless army (that's soooo Switzerland)...

Worst 3 :
Tartaros A : perfect board for beginners and people who don't want to think too much... I'm not a beginner anymore and I need some challenge for my neurons.
Lhasa A : I had to make one working with green cards but I don't like having more than one set of different symbols, B side is far better for players like me.
Beiping B : can be way too much hurt if played with Cities and I don't play without Cities anymore.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Hazel
United States
Sammamish
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
I always thank people for their feedback. It takes time to look through it and comment on it. But like Shima said also - I highly recommend people play the boards before commenting on them. We have play tested these boards since June with varying game from 3-8 players - including Cities and Leaders expansions - which is where our suggestions in the Rule Book on "Game Balance" come in.

We also have extensive data sheets recording the final scores for all board with varying number of players.

My initial reflex is to defend comments that were said - but in the end everyone has an opinion and I did ask. In playing these boards for many months - I kind of know the strengths and weaknesses of each Wonder in the set.

There are boards for new players that are easy, we have boards balanced similar to the existing boards and we have boards that stretch both ends of mechanics and strategy to play them for experienced players.

There are boards I love that Shima hates and boards I don't like that Shima loves - its all a matter of opinion - and there are as many of those out there as their are players.

In the end, we guarentee these boards will make your existing 7 Wonders game more enjoyable to play - OR your money back (it is a FREE expansion after all). If there are boards you dont like - you simply dont have to play them.

But I do like to hear everyones opinion - but I would prefer that opinion AFTER you have played these Wonders a few times. Plus its good to hear both favorites and non-favorites of fans.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Hazel
United States
Sammamish
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Greg - "But there are also a lot of fiddly new mechanics, a lot of messing with existing rules or conventions (a lot of the A-sides don't go 3- something-7), some wonders that seem over- or under-powered, a couple that seem like they'd be really painful to play. I think there are too many wonders that don't have a starting resource or other benefit to their neighbours (some even have a penalty) and too many weak/negative first stages 'balanced' by a strong third stage or later payoff."

I do want to comment on this part -
a) one of the points of this expansion was to add interesting and new ways to play - which means some "fiddly new mechanics"
b) we tried to keep convensions like Side A is worth 3-5-7, four stage wonder is 3-5-5-7, etc. It may not look like it at first but if its a power - then that power will probably give the right amount of victory throughout the game. For example, R'Lyeh A - is still 15 Victory. Or Helvetia A doesnt have combat but still gives 15 Victory (Vs 18 you would have got winning all combat) if you have 6 shields total.
c) just because you dont have a starting resource doesnt mean "Sucks to be your neighbor" while its true you have one less resource to purchase - thats only for a round AND you will find that those wonders end up having to BUY resources from the neighbor more - so they get the coins.
d) You wont know how overpowered or underpowered wonders are until you play them a few times. There are a couple of wonders that have totally surprised even me - initially hated them - then found out if played a certain way - and with a little luck - can score pretty well. For example, Yamato B lets you build your wonder stage with a card and then surprise bring it back into your play area. Like popping a 5 shield card from cities at the last minute at the end of age 3.

If anyone thinks these wonders were just tossed together and released - you will find that we have several 7 Wonder lovers, professional game designers and graphics people - who came together to build this release. Almost ALL of these wonders have went through multiple iterations for balance in wonder stages and costs and in some cases - Wonders were tossed or redesigned to create the final release you see here.

Clearly - we are not infaliable and could have made some mistakes - but we can fix those over time - that is if we missed anything really big.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Wilson
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I wasn't intending to be purely negative. There are wonders in there I'd give a go. But I think there are some genuine problems as well.

As objective errors/typos/iconography mismatches, Angkor Wat B1, Babel B4, Roll B1 and Roll B2 ought to be fixed. The rest is all opinion.

Falantrius wrote:
a) one of the points of this expansion was to add interesting and new ways to play - which means some "fiddly new mechanics"


I get that, but I think some of these take it too far. Switching seats in the middle of the game so that people need to pick up their boards and cards and everything? Everyone getting a coin whenever someone plays a card? Swapping tokens back and forth with the bank each turn? Everyone playing an extra card or skipping a whole turn? Trading your hand or cards in play with someone else? Suddenly having to think about trading with someone two seats away because your neighbour has vaished?

Falantrius wrote:
b) we tried to keep convensions like Side A is worth 3-5-7, four stage wonder is 3-5-5-7, etc. It may not look like it at first but if its a power - then that power will probably give the right amount of victory throughout the game. For example, R'Lyeh A - is still 15 Victory.


R'Lyeh A is clearly worse than Giza A; this is an example of the wonders with an awful start and a payoff if you get to the end. If you complete it, it's exactly the same - 15VPs, give everyone six coins and take them away again. But if you're stopped at any stage before that, Giza is far better. So it's basically Giza, except you're locked into completing it and can't abandon it at a profit.

Capua B is another one that's generally worse than 3-5-7. The first stage, at best, takes 3VPs away from your neighbours, which is worse than getting 3VPs because it doesn't help you against the rest of the table. The second stage is worth 5VPs. The third stage can pull even, but only if you've played 7+ shields, and that probably means you're losing anyway because you've overspent on military. To actually be doing as well as Giza versus a non-neighbour, you'd need ten shields.

Falantrius wrote:
c) just because you dont have a starting resource doesnt mean "Sucks to be your neighbor"


Yeah, it pretty much does. In the same game, you could have one player starting with access to three resources and one player with access to none, plus losing ties on one side. Based purely on seating order.

Falantrius wrote:
while its true you have one less resource to purchase - thats only for a round


Huh? You have access to one less resource for the whole game. You're a step behind, not a big step, but it's a disadvantage nonetheless. And with about a third of these wonders not having a starting resource you can end up with someone having one on each side quite easily.

Falantrius wrote:
AND you will find that those wonders end up having to BUY resources from the neighbor more - so they get the coins.


Maybe. Or they buy from your other neighbour, or use a lot of yellow cards, or rely on their own resources. Some of the official expansion/promo wonders have the same issue, true.

Falantrius wrote:
d) You wont know how overpowered or underpowered wonders are until you play them a few times. There are a couple of wonders that have totally surprised even me - initially hated them - then found out if played a certain way - and with a little luck - can score pretty well. For example, Yamato B lets you build your wonder stage with a card and then surprise bring it back into your play area. Like popping a 5 shield card from cities at the last minute at the end of age 3.


Yeah, I get the sneak-attack benefit, but that's a matter of bluff and is a debatable advantage, since having more military out in advance might discourage neighbours from fighting you in the first place.

Moreover, one of the main advantages of your wonder is that it lets you get a use out of cards that are worthless for you, or bury cards that you don't want but you want to keep from your neighbour. Yamato just gives you an alternative way to play the cards.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Hazel
United States
Sammamish
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Greg
Some of what you point our are some wonders that I don't like either but as I have said there are some wonders in here for just about everyone. I can point out that some of the game wonders are definately not my favorites but in our play tests - we find players who love those. go figure.

You can always remember what I said:

"If there are boards you dont like - you simply dont have to play them."

I'm betting there are at least a couple in there that you will like.
Enjoy!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J F
United States
MA
flag msg tools
How does everyone assign wonders, other than random or just picking what you want?

With the addition of all the extra wonders in this expansion I can imagine a lot of new and fun ways to pick wonders that turn into more of a phase in itself. Perhaps something like the ban/pick/counter-pick system some MOBA video games use. Or a 'draft' of wonders. Trying to get the right wonder with the right neighbors becomes and important part of the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Hazel
United States
Sammamish
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
we cover this on page 1 of the rulebook.

Game Setup
The game is played following the 7 Wonder standard rules. Any combination of Wonders can be used as long as you take into consideration some of the suggestions outlined under Game Balance. You may use the Lost Wonders randomizer cards to randomly distribute Wonder boards to each player. The card and its facing determine the Wonders board given to each player as well as the side to be used during the game. You may opt to allow each player to draw two cards from the set of Lost Wonder cards and let the player select which Wonder they want to play after they are revealed. A player should draw a new randomizer card if his Wonder choice is in conflict with the Game Balance outlined on the next page.

-----------------------------------------------------------
In our play test, we have allowed players a choice of two cards - once flipped up - the side A or B is shown at the top. Both cards are flipped up and the player may select from either card. Once the other is discarded, they are stuck with the remaining card. In friendly games, we have allowed players to draw again or to swap to the other SIDE of the wonder if they have played that side or that wonder before. Fun it the key in these games.

For games where we are "playing for keeps" such a for prizes, money or tournement - we have allowed players to select from three cards. You can also "draft" for the Wonder giving each player four cards to start with - removing any cards beforehand that should be "out" for game balance. Each player picks a card to keep as part of the draft and passes to the right until all players have selected three Wonders. In the end, the player has three wonders to select from and each player select their wonder in secret - and then SHOWS it at the same time as the other players. Once shown, they are stuck with it.

In the end, how you select wonders - random, draft, multi pick or just giving them a wonder to play... is really up to the players.

Does that help?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Agent Emme
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
Game Reviewer
badge
Phelanpt Feb 11, 2:15 PM: evils have mostly stood by and watch goods fall. except for emme. she's spinning them round and round.
mbmbmbmbmb
The artwork is gorgeous. The art is the reason I fell in love with 7 Wonders in the first place, and your designs are just as good.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scot Eaton
United States
Plymouth
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Greg, I was originally part of this project (and Myths, which is a great expansion), but dropped out to work on my own projects. On the one hand, I can agree with a lot of your criticisms. I didn't like a lot of the new mechanics, and thought they reached a point of over-complication. I felt Wonder Boards should be as simple as possible. Since there is almost always one new player whenever I put this game out, I knew I would never get to use these anyway. (Heck, I barely get a chance to use Cities!)

With that being said, I can assure you that I have never seen a team as dedicated as Shima, Tom, and Ken. I can point you to pages and pages of spreadsheets that were made from countless test play sessions, making sure that each of these wonders, gimmicky or not, was well-balanced. I can almost guarantee you that any question you asked was asked by Tom first, and if not by him, then by Ken. And, of course, none of this would have happened without Shima.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wong HS
msg tools
Hi, i am HS from Singapore and am a great fan of 7 wonders after my friend introduce the game to me. Me and my friends were a bit tired of playing the 10 offcial board and thats when i did a research on internet and discovered that Shima and co. created so many other boards and with such fine art. I printed them out nicely, wrapped with plastics and they looked no different from the orginal boards! Please accept my utmost gratitude for giving us an extraordinary new experience from playing 7 wonders. Basically, i am playing a 3 or 4 people game with my friends or with my family. We spent 2 nights playing and the general sense of the boards is that they worked really well and they introduced to so many different game play adding alot more variety than the orginal ones.

When i look at the board, i never judge a board by saying that its not good, bad etc. When i played a board badly, i will reflect and analyse on my gameplay to see if i have done anything wrong. Me, my frens and family just love analysing our gameplay after a game and i really think thats where we learn from each other. Some boards are intellectually or technically challenging (babel, venezia,sparta), some are easier while some are quite luck base(roll through the ages, atlantis due to guild cards - my bro gained 88 VP at the end of the game with all the guild cards beneficial to him). However, it makes me even think deeper about my strategy.

Let me start commenting on some of the boards that are my favourites.

Eldorado - before modification, this board is played by making your opponents incurring debts and i really like the idea. After modification, the board becomes a money board. i still prefer the debt eldorado board because it is more technically challenged as other players needs to pay attention to your 2nd wonder with -5 coins effect. i play the leaders exp and cities exp so money is impt. Hence, i decided to have eldorado 1 (before modification) and eldorado 2 (after modification) boards. May i suggest to you to create a board that focus on creating debts on other players?

Roll though the ages - Super interesting board. Added so much fun to the game when my family shouted 'one' 'one' when i rolled the dice. When i really rolled out a one, they burst into laughter. However, this board came out 3 time, and its a 100 percent victory for the players

Babel - very techinically challenging in strategy but like it very much. Manage to whoop up 23 VP from the wonders during a game when i used it. Need yellow cards to balance up the lack in brown and grey cards. I like it very much.

Persepolis - black cards board. Can be so powerful with the leaders card.

Doppel wonder - allowing 2 same boards to be in the same game is interesting. We played a game with 2 eldorado board in a 4 person game and we were all broke in the midle of the age 2 lol. (we played the eldorado board before modification)

Yamato - very technically challenging but interesting concept. have a few question to clarify which i will post on the other thread on faq.

I would not say its not good but we played 4 times lhasa, all the players lost in the game at the last position.
Lhasa - this board happens to come out a 3 or 4 time when we play and its a 100% defeat to the player who used the board. i reflected abt his gameplay and i think he has not maximised his science cards. However, i think that lhasa's ability can be stronger by modifying its stage 1 wonder. Apart from removing -1 military, the player should receive 2 coins on top of that. Please advice on this.


While not all boards have the same difficulty, the gameplay is more or less balanced. Very much of the time, your strategy depends on what you and your opponents boards are. I apologised if i cannot give more feedback more than these. Have a nice day with 7 wonders!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Hazel
United States
Sammamish
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
"Eldorado - before modification, this board is played by making your opponents incurring debts and i really like the idea. After modification, the board becomes a money board. i still prefer the debt eldorado board because it is more technically challenged as other players needs to pay attention to your 2nd wonder with -5 coins effect. i play the leaders exp and cities exp so money is impt. Hence, i decided to have eldorado 1 (before modification) and eldorado 2 (after modification) boards. May i suggest to you to create a board that focus on creating debts on other players? "

Im confused on what you say here because El Dorado doesn't have debt.
It is one of the boards in the Mythical Wonders here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/file/download/9z6yabo4na/Lost_W...

SIDE A:
El Dorado, City of Gold
El Dorado has no starting resource; instead, the player begins the game with 12 extra coins.

• the first stage is worth 6 coins and the player loses 2 victory points for each blue card present in his city at
the end of the game.
• the second stage grants the player 3 coins for each yellow card he plays after building this stage.
• the third stage is worth 1 victory point for each set of 3 coins.

Clarification: the player scores 2 victory points for each set of 3 coins instead of 1 victory point if Stage III is
constructed.

SIDE B:
El Dorado has no starting resource; instead, all players gain 1 coin from the bank each time the player plays a card.

• the first stage grants the player 3 coins whenever he builds a structure for free through building chains.
• the second stage is worth 12 coins and El Dorado’s neighbors each gain 4 coins.
• the third stage is worth 16 coins.

Clarification: players only gain the coin if a new card was built in El Dorado’s city. Coins are not earned when the
player constructs a stage of his Wonder or discards a card.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Hazel
United States
Sammamish
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
naka88 wrote:
I would not say its not good but we played 4 times lhasa, all the players lost in the game at the last position.
Lhasa - this board happens to come out a 3 or 4 time when we play and its a 100% defeat to the player who used the board. i reflected abt his gameplay and i think he has not maximised his science cards. However, i think that lhasa's ability can be stronger by modifying its stage 1 wonder. Apart from removing -1 military, the player should receive 2 coins on top of that. Please advice on this.


I'll let Shima comment on this one. However, checking my playtest database - Lhasa A typically has scored lower than Lhasa B here. Only because experienced players will try to block sets to the player of Side A. As they should - usually they can get 1 set for +4 or if lucky 2 sets for +8. However, stage 2 should only be worth 5 Victory points anyhow - so its play has been balanced.

Lhasa B's average score runs around 52-57 with high bounds at 74.
We have had several players win with Lhasa A and B.
Stage 1: should only give the player 3 Victory points so they must use the upgrade ability at least 3 times to benefit from that.
Stage 2: should only give 5
Stage 3: should only give 7 - with one symbol that is met.

All other player is like any other three stage board and we have had multiple people pull off an additional 2 sets of Sciences in stage 3 (SIDE B).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wong HS
msg tools
I am sorry that i did not mention that i always play side B with my frens and family. Eldorado side B before modification has -5 coin eefect to other players in stage 2 while stage 3 is the number of -1 VP token neighboring cities have, am i correct? Hence, the idea of this eldorado board revolves around making your neighbours incur debt, the more debt u incur on your neighbours the better so that you earn more VP when you neightbours incur more -1 VP tokens. Hope that clarifies.

yes, when lhasa is played, the VP hovers around 55 for the player more or less. However, as we are playing cities and leaders expansion, getting ard 55 is not good enough. Our gameplay shows that 65-70 is the avg winning score.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Wilson
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Falantrius wrote:
Lhasa B's average score runs around 52-57 with high bounds at 74.
We have had several players win with Lhasa A and B.
Stage 1: should only give the player 3 Victory points so they must use the upgrade ability at least 3 times to benefit from that.
Stage 2: should only give 5
Stage 3: should only give 7 - with one symbol that is met.


I think the tipping point for Lhasa B's third stage is four science cards. At three science cards, the most benefit you can get from the third stage is +5 VP. At four, you can get +8 VP, and potentially higher with more cards. Depending on how efficient your sets are, of course.

Here's something interesting, though. I ran the numbers for every combination up to six science cards, and in only three of them was the third stage of Lhasa B better than the second stage of Babylon A. These all required five or six science cards.

In a third of these cases, Lhasa was worth 0 VPs. In half of these cases, it was worth 3 VPs or fewer.

On a straight average across all these cases, Babylon 2A was worth +7.9 VPs and Lhasa 3B was worth +4.7 VPs. I think actual play would favour Babylon even more, because the combinations that favour Lhasa are unusual ones. And, of course, Babylon's other stage is worth 7 VPs while Lhasa's other stage is worth 5 VPs.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Hazel
United States
Sammamish
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
naka88 wrote:
I am sorry that i did not mention that i always play side B with my frens and family. Eldorado side B before modification has -5 coin eefect to other players in stage 2 while stage 3 is the number of -1 VP token neighboring cities have, am i correct? Hence, the idea of this eldorado board revolves around making your neighbours incur debt, the more debt u incur on your neighbours the better so that you earn more VP when you neightbours incur more -1 VP tokens. Hope that clarifies.


*Scratching my head*
Stage 2 Side B - Provides 12 coins to the player and 4 coins to the players neighbors.(or 4 Victory Points)
Stage 3 provides 16 coins. (essentially 5 Victory Points)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Hazel
United States
Sammamish
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
BlackSheep wrote:

Here's something interesting, though. I ran the numbers for every combination up to six science cards, and in only three of them was the third stage of Lhasa B better than the second stage of Babylon A. These all required five or six science cards.

In a third of these cases, Lhasa was worth 0 VPs. In half of these cases, it was worth 3 VPs or fewer.

On a straight average across all these cases, Babylon 2A was worth +7.9 VPs and Lhasa 3B was worth +4.7 VPs. I think actual play would favour Babylon even more, because the combinations that favour Lhasa are unusual ones. And, of course, Babylon's other stage is worth 7 VPs while Lhasa's other stage is worth 5 VPs.


Well said - I've seen this as well. I've been thinking the same thing and trying to decided if Shima should change:
1) Swap stage 3 and stage 2 (aka move Stage 3 to stage 2)
2) Change 5 Victory to 7 Victory in stage 3

Something to consider in the next revision.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shima Tetsuo
Switzerland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Nope I won't change anything.
Lhasa is fine as it is, B side is well-balanced for my group. It allows players not to be bound to the stress of having 3 different symbols when they try a green strategy. And if you don't succeed in making a green strategy, then you're allowed not to build the last stage. You're also allowed not to play this board if it doesn't please you, period.

Comparing it to Babylon A makes me lol a lot. Babylon A is the only wonder that has a second stage that is worth between 1 and 10+ VP. But no one complain about the fact that it sometimes can be more than "not balanced at all". I saw people end with more than 80 points and some with less than 40, is this a problem ? not to me, I call that luck or bad luck.

I'm tired of having to justify every little decision I made for these wonders. It's not my mother-tongue and I can't argue as well as I could do if I wrote in french.

So dear Blacksheep, I saw you had some time to spend doing some nice, constructive (hum, hum...) comments and calculations about these wonders... Fine, let's reverse the roles. I'm waiting for your wonders to come out. If you need the icons, I'll be glad to send them to you. I can't wait to see your work. I assure you I won't play them, but I can't wait to tell you what I'll think about them.
Sorry but I may not answer to your future posts. Or if I do, I'll do it in french.

Bonne soirée et bonne année à tous.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Wilson
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Shima san wrote:
And if you don't succeed in making a green strategy, then you're allowed not to build the last stage.


If you're going to keep it then I'd agree with keeping it as the last stage, since its value varies so much right up to the end of the game. It can literally turn from being worthless to being worth 10+ points on the last card played. So having it in the middle would be bad, since you'd have to decide whether to build it with no idea what it's worth.

Shima san wrote:
Comparing it to Babylon A makes me lol a lot.


Why? They have similar effects that benefit similar strategies. But Babylon is generally superior, except in a few edge cases, and Lhasa is a bit fiddlier, as it adds more decisions and calculation to what's already the slowest part of scoring.

Shima san wrote:
Babylon A is the only wonder that has a second stage that is worth between 1 and 10+ VP. But no one complain about the fact that it sometimes can be more than "not balanced at all".


Any wonder stage that doesn't give flat VPs will have a variable benefit, depending on how the game goes, which cards turn up, and what the owner and neighbours do.

Rhodes? Those military symbols could be worth anywhere between 0VPs and 24VPs. Ephesus? Coin can be doubled or tripled in value, or pay off debt, or build something big. Halicarnassus? The discards can be worthless trash or the exact cards you need. Olympia? Your neigbours might never build a single purple.

Shima san wrote:
I'm tired of having to justify every little decision I made for these wonders.


You're certainly not obligated to reply. But I suggest you don't ask for feedback if you're not prepared for opinions that are less than wholly positive.

Or, as in this case, if you're not prepared for people to agressively do maths at you.

Shima san wrote:
I'm waiting for your wonders to come out.


You don't have to be a chef to say whether or not you enjoy a meal.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Hazel
United States
Sammamish
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Shima san wrote:
Nope I won't change anything.
Sorry but I may not answer to your future posts. Or if I do, I'll do it in french.

Bonne soirée et bonne année à tous.


As always I leave changes on your wonders up to you - you da man!!

Happy New Year to you too! Shima

or should I say Bonne année à vous aussi! Mon français est pire que mon allemand.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Hazel
United States
Sammamish
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Instead of this -
BlackSheep wrote:
I wasn't intending to be purely negative. There are wonders in there I'd give a go. But I think there are some genuine problems as well.

Falantrius wrote:
b) we tried to keep convensions like Side A is worth 3-5-7, four stage wonder is 3-5-5-7, etc. It may not look like it at first but if its a power - then that power will probably give the right amount of victory throughout the game. For example, R'Lyeh A - is still 15 Victory.


R'Lyeh A is clearly worse than Giza A; this is an example of the wonders with an awful start and a payoff if you get to the end. If you complete it, it's exactly the same - 15VPs, give everyone six coins and take them away again. But if you're stopped at any stage before that, Giza is far better. So it's basically Giza, except you're locked into completing it and can't abandon it at a profit.

-
I'm aware there are boards better than R'Lyeh A - If I wanted to build this better than Giza A - you would say "Hey, its too powerful its far better than Giza A"

So how about you tell me how you would re-design R'Lyeh A so that:
a) its equal to an A style board 3-5-7 - you get three stages to do it in. Board total for 3 stages is 15 Victory.
b) that it fits the design theme set out for this board (Cthulhu) In this board, the last STAGE is what happens if you wake up them up (both hard to do and scary if you do).... otherwise, all is calm. We could debate the theme but lets not - stick with the theme defined. Scare the players using the mechanics already defined in 7 Wonders.
c) so its fun for new players
d) so that its balanced
e) so its not like "other" Wonders

My ears are open...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Wilson
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Falantrius wrote:
I'm aware there are boards better than R'Lyeh A - If I wanted to build this better than Giza A - you would say "Hey, its too powerful its far better than Giza A"


Well, yes. It shouldn't be flat-out better or flat-out worse. It should be better in some circumstances and worse in others, like all the other wonders. As I said, anything except flat VPs has a variable worth.

As it stands, it seems to me that R'Lyeh A is at absolute best (when completed) exactly equal to Giza A, and often (when not completed) much worse. As far as I can tell, at no stage, under no circumstance, is it better. Nor does it appear significantly easier to build.

Falantrius wrote:
a) its equal to an A style board 3-5-7 - you get three stages to do it in. Board total for 3 stages is 15 Victory.
b) that it fits the design theme set out for this board (Cthulhu) In this board, the last STAGE is what happens if you wake up them up (both hard to do and scary if you do).... otherwise, all is calm.


Thing is that if you want the wonder to give 15VPs in three stages, and you're wedded to the nothing-nothing-awesome setup for thematic reasons, then by definition you're going to get a wonder that lags behind Giza A.

I can't argue with the theme decision, but I think it's problematic for balance purposes. R'Lyeh's first two stages are worthless, comparing poorly to just selling the cards for coins. So you either risk not completing it or hold off until you have all the resources needed to finish it before starting, which probably means using second and third age cards to build it. The payoff isn't big enough to make up for it.

I think I'd probably go for the standard 3-something-7 build for the A side, to represent Chtulhu rousing and returning to slumber. And then a two-stage B-side along the lines of Petra, with a somewhat weak first stage and a big but costly second stage, for Cthulhu actally awakening. But not to such extremes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Wilson
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Again, to emphasise, I'm not trying to disparage the effort and creativity that have gone into these wonders. They clearly represent a lot of work, there are some good ideas in there, and the graphical presentation is absolutely first-rate.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J F
United States
MA
flag msg tools
naka88 wrote:
I am sorry that i did not mention that i always play side B with my frens and family. Eldorado side B before modification has -5 coin eefect to other players in stage 2 while stage 3 is the number of -1 VP token neighboring cities have, am i correct? Hence, the idea of this eldorado board revolves around making your neighbours incur debt, the more debt u incur on your neighbours the better so that you earn more VP when you neightbours incur more -1 VP tokens. Hope that clarifies.



What is "before modification" -- was there an earlier version floating around that used debt instead?

I do like the idea of a super debt heavy wonder. Debt rarely is a factor in my games even when we happen to draw many of the black cards.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.