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Subject: Rules Dispute rss

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Jack of Rules
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The text of this post has been submitted to AEG for review and decision.

My question is: Is a card in the draw pile (or 'deck') that is revealed and is not played still a part of the draw pile?

Perhaps some context is in order.

A dispute arose, as sometimes happens in games, when one of my fellow players tried to play the Wizard card 'Portal', an Action card that allows the player to reveal the top 5 cards of his draw pile, or 'deck', and various other effects. At the time, he had 3 cards remaining in his deck (draw pile).
NOTE: The term 'deck' is used in the rules to describe both the full 40-card combination of a player's faction cards (p.3, Setup) and also to what I consider the draw pile, that is, the collection of unplayed, undiscarded cards that a player draws his cards from, which are normally face-down before drawn. (p.4, This Is How You Roll, 4: Draw 2 Cards) This could benefit from some clarification.
All uses of 'draw pile' below shall refer to the 'deck' as understood from the page 4 reference.

His position:
If a card is revealed from the draw pile, it ceases to be part of the draw pile.
Thus, after he revealed the three cards from his draw pile, the draw pile was empty, and was able to be refilled so that he could reveal another two cards, as per Page 4(This Is How You Roll), section 4, paragraph 2.
IN SHORT: His draw pile is exhausted, and he needs to reveal more cards, so he refreshes his draw pile.

My position:
If a card is revealed from the draw pile, it does not cease to be a part of the draw pile.
Also, the only time that the draw pile can be refilled from the discard pile is when the draw pile is exhausted (there being no cards left in it) and the player needing to draw or reveal (a) card(s), as per the phrasing of Page 4(This Is How You Roll), section 4, paragraph 2.
Thus, since the three revealed cards are still part of the draw pile (having not been drawn), the draw pile cannot be refilled, as it is not exhausted.
This would seem to contradict the 'Portal' card in this instance, but as per Page 9, Void Where Prohibited, paragraph 4, cards may be played even though their abilities can't happen. Thus, he doesn't *need* to reveal all five cards if he doesn't have five cards to reveal.
IN SHORT: He can't get more cards for his draw pile because it is not empty.

During the argument, we failed to consider the wording of other cards that deal with the revealing of cards from the draw pile, and as I do not currently have access to the game, I can't check the cards.

I know that this may be a rare occurrence and a technicality, but we love clear and concise rules, and would appreciate a definitive ruling.

What do you think?
 
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Christian K
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I think he is right. I have no basis foe it, it just better suits my understanding of he deck building concept.
 
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Peter Jackson
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Muemmelmann wrote:
I think he is right. I have no basis foe it, it just better suits my understanding of he deck building concept.


I hope the argument was a constructive one and didn't get too intense. In fact the last time I had an argument I also posted on BGG and managed to get the designer to settle the dispute.

What rule did you agree to play to move the game on?

I play a lot of deck building and card games, almost all the rules say that if a card disagrees with the rules that you should follow the card. Therefore I think 'he' is right. The card states that he should draw the top 5 cards, after drawing the top three his deck WAS empty and therefore needed to form a new deck to complete the cards text to draw two more cards.

All I hope for you is that he was playing a wizard/zombie deck and was about to lose all his zombies from the discard pile!!
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Clement Tey
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tl;dr
He doesn't have enough cards in his deck to reveal three cards so he shuffles in his graveyard and reveals two more.
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M. B. Downey
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princemousey wrote:
tl;dr
He doesn't have enough cards in his deck to reveal three cards so he shuffles in his graveyard and reveals two more.


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David Gregg
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The general consensus among deckbuilders card games that I've played is that you only refill the deck when needing to "draw" and can't. Revealing does not trigger this, thus you would reveal as many as possible and go with that.

As noted, the rulebook does indeed say "If you need to draw or reveal a card and your deck is empty, shuffle your discard pile. Put it on the table face down—that’s your new deck. Start drawing from there."

So yes, you do always get to reveal the full number of cards. In that case I would say any revealed cards to be placed back on the deck would go on top of the newly shuffled deck.
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Andy
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s3rvant wrote:
The general consensus among deckbuilders is that you only refill the deck when needing to "draw" and can't. Revealing does not trigger this, thus you would reveal as many as possible and go with that.


I'm glad that 'deckbuilders' have a consensus, but Smashup isn't a true deck builder. Or even a fake deck builder.
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Mike Beiter
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s3rvant wrote:
The general consensus among deckbuilders is that you only refill the deck when needing to "draw" and can't. Revealing does not trigger this, thus you would reveal as many as possible and go with that.


That is how we play smash up. If you have only a couple cards left to draw; then there are some cards that do not work as well until the deck is replenished.
 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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I would rule that the discard pile would be shuffled to form a new draw pile and the last two cards revealed. To reveal cards requires drawing cards off the draw deck and the rules say to shuffle the discard pile whenever you need to draw and can't because the draw pile is empty. I don't see any logic is saying that revealed cards are still part of the draw pile. But those revealed cards also aren't part of the discard pile and as such won't be shuffled into the new draw pile.
 
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Aaron Morgan
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rickert wrote:
To reveal cards requires drawing cards off the draw deck and the rules say to shuffle the discard pile whenever you need to draw and can't because the draw pile is empty.


Not entirely true. The game makes a distinction between revealing and drawing cards, but you shuffle the discards if you have to draw or reveal cards and don't have a big enough draw pile.

With that distinction in mind, the revealed cards are still part of the draw pile, since they are not in your hand, in play, or on the discard pile.
 
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Aaron Morgan
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s3rvant wrote:
The general consensus among deckbuilders is that you only refill the deck when needing to "draw" and can't. Revealing does not trigger this, thus you would reveal as many as possible and go with that.


Consensus is nice, but it's not part of the rules of the game. Check the section of the rules under "Draw 2".
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Rick Teverbaugh
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EitherOrlok wrote:
rickert wrote:
To reveal cards requires drawing cards off the draw deck and the rules say to shuffle the discard pile whenever you need to draw and can't because the draw pile is empty.


Not entirely true. The game makes a distinction between revealing and drawing cards, but you shuffle the discards if you have to draw or reveal cards and don't have a big enough draw pile.

With that distinction in mind, the revealed cards are still part of the draw pile, since they are not in your hand, in play, or on the discard pile.


Not true at all unless you find a rule in the book that says "revealed cards are still part of the draw pile." I would argue that revealed cards asre more likely temporarily in play than still in the draw pile.
 
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Aaron Morgan
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rickert wrote:

Not true at all unless you find a rule in the book that says "revealed cards are still part of the draw pile." I would argue that revealed cards asre more likely temporarily in play than still in the draw pile.


You don't draw them - you only reveal them. They go back to the draw pile after you show them. They certainly do not go into play, even temporarily.

Ergo, they remain part of the draw pile.
 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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EitherOrlok wrote:
rickert wrote:

Not true at all unless you find a rule in the book that says "revealed cards are still part of the draw pile." I would argue that revealed cards asre more likely temporarily in play than still in the draw pile.


You don't draw them - you only reveal them. They go back to the draw pile after you show them. They certainly do not go into play, even temporarily.

Ergo, they remain part of the draw pile.


Ergo, error. You still can find no rulebook reference to support your position, so it remains no more valid than mine.
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EitherOrlok wrote:


You don't draw them - you only reveal them. They go back to the draw pile after you show them. They certainly do not go into play, even temporarily.

Ergo, they remain part of the draw pile.


These two statements are counter to each other. If you're arguing that they are still in the deck, then they cannot "go back to the deck". If they can go "back to the deck", then at some point they have left the deck (while not necessarily "in play") and the deck could be empty and would need to be refilled to reveal the rest.

Following the text of the card seems to point to the latter when it states:
"Return the other cards to the top of your deck in any order"

And since a card overrides the printed rules, I would submit that if you reveal less then the required 5 cards, the deck would need to be refilled to allow the player to reveal the full amount.
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David Gregg
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Per my correction above: the rulebook does indeed say "If you need to draw or reveal a card and your deck is empty, shuffle your discard pile. Put it on the table face down—that’s your new deck. Start drawing from there." (emphasis mine)

So yes, you do always get to reveal the full number of cards. In that case I would say any revealed cards that are to be placed back on the deck would go on top of the newly shuffled deck.

Also, I disagree completely with the notion that a revealed card should be considered "in play". Cards in general aren't considered "in play" until you've played them (normally from hand; possibly from elsewhere).
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Rick Teverbaugh
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s3rvant wrote:
Also, I disagree completely with the notion that a revealed card should be considered "in play". Cards in general aren't considered "in play" until you've played them (normally from hand; possibly from elsewhere).


I disagree with this statement totally for the previously stated reasons. I think they are more properly temporarily in play because of an effect of a card in play than any other state defined by the game. So until the game's creators submit a new state for those cards to be in, I think my explanation is as good as any. If the game being discussed was Nightfall, then I would easily and happily given in to your argument, but not here.
 
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Aaron Morgan
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rickert wrote:

Ergo, error. You still can find no rulebook reference to support your position, so it remains no more valid than mine.


If the revealed cards are minions, they don't go onto a base, and if they are actions, you don't get to use their effect, so they are not "in play", even temporarily.
 
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Aaron Morgan
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paigew wrote:
Following the text of the card seems to point to the latter when it states:
"Return the other cards to the top of your deck in any order"

And since a card overrides the printed rules, I would submit that if you reveal less then the required 5 cards, the deck would need to be refilled to allow the player to reveal the full amount.


It's just as you quoted - they go back to the top of the deck. That doesn't preclude them from being part of that deck while they are being revealed.

I'm talking about a game state, not the physical stack of cards you draw from. Your "in hand" cards don't literally need to be in your hand - you don't even need to have hands - it's just a state.

Those revealed cards are not part of your hand, not in play, and not in a discard pile. Where, then, can they be if not part of the deck?

The second part about shuffling the discards is covered in the rulebook. No need to override any rules.
 
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EitherOrlok wrote:
paigew wrote:
Following the text of the card seems to point to the latter when it states:
"Return the other cards to the top of your deck in any order"

And since a card overrides the printed rules, I would submit that if you reveal less then the required 5 cards, the deck would need to be refilled to allow the player to reveal the full amount.


It's just as you quoted - they go back to the top of the deck. That doesn't preclude them from being part of that deck while they are being revealed.

I'm talking about a game state, not the physical stack of cards you draw from. Your "in hand" cards don't literally need to be in your hand - you don't even need to have hands - it's just a state.

Those revealed cards are not part of your hand, not in play, and not in a discard pile. Where, then, can they be if not part of the deck?

The second part about shuffling the discards is covered in the rulebook. No need to override any rules.


I'm glad we're in agreement.
 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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EitherOrlok wrote:
paigew wrote:
Following the text of the card seems to point to the latter when it states:
"Return the other cards to the top of your deck in any order"

And since a card overrides the printed rules, I would submit that if you reveal less then the required 5 cards, the deck would need to be refilled to allow the player to reveal the full amount.


It's just as you quoted - they go back to the top of the deck. That doesn't preclude them from being part of that deck while they are being revealed.

I'm talking about a game state, not the physical stack of cards you draw from. Your "in hand" cards don't literally need to be in your hand - you don't even need to have hands - it's just a state.

Those revealed cards are not part of your hand, not in play, and not in a discard pile. Where, then, can they be if not part of the deck?

The second part about shuffling the discards is covered in the rulebook. No need to override any rules.


Since you want to pick nits, they can't be a part of the deck because they are not in that deck. I am sure there is an actual or implied definition of the deck that doesn't extend to cards drawn or revealed from it. So that makes those cards not a part of the deck just as certainly as they are not in play, in hand or in the discard pile by your very reasoning about those locations. I still think temporarily in play fits best as those cards either actions or minions when revealed as they are one they are in play, but when they are in the deck they are just cards.
 
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Aaron Morgan
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rickert wrote:
Since you want to pick nits, they can't be a part of the deck because they are not in that deck. I am sure there is an actual or implied definition of the deck that doesn't extend to cards drawn or revealed from it. So that makes those cards not a part of the deck just as certainly as they are not in play, in hand or in the discard pile by your very reasoning about those locations. I still think temporarily in play fits best as those cards either actions or minions when revealed as they are one they are in play, but when they are in the deck they are just cards.


Now you're contradicting yourself.

 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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EitherOrlok wrote:
rickert wrote:
Since you want to pick nits, they can't be a part of the deck because they are not in that deck. I am sure there is an actual or implied definition of the deck that doesn't extend to cards drawn or revealed from it. So that makes those cards not a part of the deck just as certainly as they are not in play, in hand or in the discard pile by your very reasoning about those locations. I still think temporarily in play fits best as those cards either actions or minions when revealed as they are one they are in play, but when they are in the deck they are just cards.


Now you're contradicting yourself.



You misunderstand. I'm contradicting you.
 
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rickert wrote:
EitherOrlok wrote:
Now you're contradicting yourself.



You misunderstand. I'm contradicting you.
No you're not...




 
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David Gregg
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rickert wrote:
s3rvant wrote:
Also, I disagree completely with the notion that a revealed card should be considered "in play". Cards in general aren't considered "in play" until you've played them (normally from hand; possibly from elsewhere).

I disagree with this statement totally for the previously stated reasons. I think they are more properly temporarily in play because of an effect of a card in play than any other state defined by the game. So until the game's creators submit a new state for those cards to be in, I think my explanation is as good as any. If the game being discussed was Nightfall, then I would easily and happily given in to your argument, but not here.

If you're going to argue that revealed cards are entering play, then would they not be subject to other effects currently affecting cards that are in play? This would open them up to lots of weird thing such as strength adjustments, being destroyed or discarded, etc. Now I'm not saying there are currently effects which do this (as I'm not going back to check each one), but it would certainly allow for weird complications should blanket rules like "Ongoing: Destroy the next minion that enters play" ever be created in expansions. As weird complications like this are generally not desirable, it makes more sense that revealing a card does not place into play.

Furthermore, the term "deck" has dual meanings: both as a place (e.g. top of deck or bottom of deck) and as a physical structure(e.g. there are 20 cards in this deck). A card can still be one member of the whole deck while being instructed to be placed in a different position within the deck. Arguing that temporarily removing a card from place also forces it to cease being part of the physical structure is like saying that when moving a card from the top of the deck to the bottom of the deck that during the transition the card has ceased to be part of the deck...
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