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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Los and ranged attack questions rss

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Laurent Lebas
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Hi

Two basic questions after completing the first quest

Is there LOS along the edge of a map tile? I'd say no but not sure

When a hero is equiped with a range weapon and adjacent to a monster, can he attack any target in LOS, or is it mandatory to attack the adjacent one? The rules say nothing about that so I guess you can do whatever you want but it seems a bit strange
 
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Robin REEVE
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No LOS along an edge.

No mandatory adjacent attack.
 
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Dawid
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LINE OF SIGHT (rulebook, p. 12)
Quote:
In order for a figure to have line of sight to a space, a player must be able to trace an uninterrupted, straight line from any corner of that figure’s space to any corner of the target space.
(...)
If the line passes along the edge of a blocked space, the target space is not in line of sight.
Second paragraph specifies only blocked space but I would consider the edge of the map as blocked for that matter.
Question is why do you need to race it that way? I assume that is because one of the map spaces is blocked and that falls strictly under the cited paragraph.
Laurisa wrote:
When a hero is equiped with a range weapon and adjacent to a monster, can he attack any target in LOS, or is it mandatory to attack the adjacent one? The rules say nothing about that so I guess you can do whatever you want but it seems a bit strange
You can do whatever you want, and opposite would seem strange.
COMBAT (rulebook, p. 12) wrote:
The attacking player declares which space his figure is attacking.
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Ian Kelly
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Ignipes wrote:
You can do whatever you want, and opposite would seem strange.


I'm standing next to an ettin that's about to swing a massive club in my face. I choose to ignore the ettin and instead take a carefully aimed shot at a kobold standing 20 meters away. You don't think that strange?

Some other games, e.g. Mice and Mystics, do have rules that you can't attack distant enemies when there's one standing right next to you.
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Triu Greykith
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D2E is not a wargame / simulation -- it is more abstract; there are no zones of control, facing, or flank attacks. Just because it is adjacent, doesn't mean the Ettin is menacing you -- it might have turned away at the moment you fired ... or not. Until the moment it attacks you, its exact state is undetermined. Call it Schrödinger's Ettin.
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Ian Kelly
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Triu wrote:
D2E is not a wargame / simulation -- it is more abstract; there are no zones of control, facing, or flank attacks.


I wasn't talking about wargames.

Quote:
Just because it is adjacent, doesn't mean the Ettin is menacing you -- it might have turned away at the moment you fired ... or not. Until the moment it attacks you, its exact state is undetermined. Call it Schrödinger's Ettin.


Okay, put me next to an ettin that's more interested in picking daisies than bashing in my skull, and I guess you have a point.
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Triu Greykith
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I didn't realize you were running solo, with no other heroes as potential targets, in a wide open area with no distractions & nowhere for other threats to hide. If you brought him daisies, maybe the Ettin was blushing & batting his eyes instead of focusing on mayhem.
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Dawid
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Peristarkawan wrote:
I'm standing next to an ettin that's about to swing a massive club in my face. I choose to ignore the ettin and instead take a carefully aimed shot at a kobold standing 20 meters away. You don't think that strange?
Well, the way you put this, it is strange.

But I'm sure that you can understand that when I said...
Ignipes wrote:
You can do whatever you want, and opposite would seem strange.
...I meant it would be strange if game would not let me do certain moves (even if they are not the best from heroes point of view).

If you cannot imagine it your self...
You are standing next to an ettin that's about to hit you. But at the same time you noticed kobold who is aiming at your half-alived friends back. You are aware that you have only few moment before ettin will smash your head. You draw a bowstring hurriedly, shoot... and jump aside. A massive club is passing inches from your face and ettin is taking second swing...
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Or how about this: the fleeing Lieutenant is one step away from the exit, but he is wounded enough that a single well-placed shot would take him out, but TOO BAD, there's a minion kobold standing right behind you; you must first attack him, because you have some sort of monster OCD. "Definitely... definitely gotta hit the closest ones first..."
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Brook Gentlestream
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It's not a silly question at all. Lot of miniatures games have rules that heavily restrict ranged combat. It's actually more of the norm than anything to have "engagement" rules for adjacent opponents or restrictions about which enemies can be targeted based on their relative distance or threat level. Even "light" miniatures games tend to have rules like these.

It seems, however, that this is not one of those games.
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Aswin Agastya
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There are several reasons for that.

First, it's fantasy combat game. I can easily imagine Legolas shooting at faraway target while ducking the club swung by nearby troll.

Second, Descent happens in a tight space with high figure density, which may gimp ranged weapons if such restriction is applied.

Third, the nature of combat Descent simulated seems to be a highly acrobatic one, especially with the absence of threat zone/zone of controls/attack of opportunity. Heroes do things they want instead of forced by combat situations.
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Brook Gentlestream
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Sevej wrote:
There are several reasons for that.

First, it's fantasy combat game. I can easily imagine Legolas shooting at faraway target while ducking the club swung by nearby troll.

Second, Descent happens in a tight space with high figure density, which may gimp ranged weapons if such restriction is applied.

Third, the nature of combat Descent simulated seems to be a highly acrobatic one, especially with the absence of threat zone/zone of controls/attack of opportunity. Heroes do things they want instead of forced by combat situations.


There's also the fact that the mechanics requiring "range" results on the attack dice already heavily restrict ranged combat, and so further restrictions may not be necessary. It's already to your advantage to target units that are closer anyway, so firing at a figure father away is taking a risk.
 
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Robin REEVE
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Laurisa wrote:
it seems a bit strange
If you come from a wargaming background, it can seem strange, as many wargame rules make close combat mandatory and don't allow ranged fire when a unit is adjacent to an enemy.
But there are quite a variety of rules, even among wargames, and some do allow ranged attack even when an enemy is adjacent.
After all, if you have two adjacent enemies and decide to attack one rather than the other, you are ignoring an adjacent enemy too.
 
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Dustin Whitmire
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Robin wrote:
But there are quite a variety of rules, even among wargames, and some do allow ranged attack even when an enemy is adjacent.
After all, if you have two adjacent enemies and decide to attack one rather than the other, you are ignoring an adjacent enemy too.


Memoir 44 comes to mind. If I remember right, you don't have to attack the adjacent figure.
 
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Kevin Smith
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Laurisa wrote:

When a hero is equiped with a range weapon and adjacent to a monster, can he attack any target in LOS, or is it mandatory to attack the adjacent one? The rules say nothing about that so I guess you can do whatever you want but it seems a bit strange

While I can't find anything in the rules text regarding this, the example with Jain Fairwood on page 12 does address this.
She's adjacent to one goblin, has line of sight to another goblin, and the example clearly states that either target is valid for her short bow.

Kevin
 
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Ian Kelly
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Robin wrote:
Laurisa wrote:
it seems a bit strange
If you come from a wargaming background, it can seem strange, as many wargame rules make close combat mandatory and don't allow ranged fire when a unit is adjacent to an enemy.


Well, I'm not a wargamer, and I think it's strange.

dustwhit wrote:
Robin wrote:
But there are quite a variety of rules, even among wargames, and some do allow ranged attack even when an enemy is adjacent.
After all, if you have two adjacent enemies and decide to attack one rather than the other, you are ignoring an adjacent enemy too.


Memoir 44 comes to mind. If I remember right, you don't have to attack the adjacent figure.


That actually makes more sense to me, because the units in Memoir '44 are platoons or companies, not individual fighters, and the map scale is correspondingly larger.
 
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demonhanz demonhanz
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Not sure why some of you are thinking this to be strange? If there's a monster adjacent, the only time you would be prohibited from making a ranged attack is if LOS is blocked. Otherwise, why should there be a restriction, especially since you're usually within the vicinity of the rest of the party.
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Robin REEVE
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The feeling that something is strange is when our subjective idea of realism is not satisfied by the subjective way a game mechanic portrays a situation.

Now, when adjacent to a monster, if a hero decides to shoot an arrow at another monster further away, the game system is simply giving the player the responsibility to choose his target.
Rather than force a rule upon the player, the game leaves him with his free will.
If not attacking the adjacent monster is insane, a good player will attack it. If shooting at another monster is reasonable (e.g. as another player is attacking the adjacent monster), he will shoot at it.

Why would it be strange to have more responsabilities ?
I personally like that.
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demonhanz demonhanz
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Robin wrote:
The feeling that something is strange is when our subjective idea of realism is not satisfied by the subjective way a game mechanic portrays a situation.

Now, when adjacent to a monster, if a hero decides to shoot an arrow at another monster further away, the game system is simply giving the player the responsibility to choose his target.
Rather than force a rule upon the player, the game leaves him with his free will.
If not attacking the adjacent monster is insane, a good player will attack it. If shooting at another monster is reasonable (e.g. as another player is attacking the adjacent monster), he will shoot at it.

Why would it be strange to have more responsabilities ?
I personally like that.


Well said, Robin. Free will is the key term.
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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You're reading way too much into this. "Strange" just means that it was initially counter-intuitive, a bit unclear, or different from our initial expectations. There's nothing wrong with it. We're not saying its a bad rule.

Once its clarified, it's fine. But some of us felt it was "strange enough" to require confirmation that we hadn't missed something somewhere.

If there was a mechanic that allowed players to draw Overlord cards, many people would find it strange to draw a hand of cards that they couldn't play and might request rules asking how to play these cards, because there is an expectation that if cards can be drawn, they should be played. If someone else clarified that the rules were correct and that the purpose was simply to deny the cards from the Overlord, and interact with certain effects that specified hand size, the purpose behind these rules would be more clear and the player's confusion would be at an end.

We're not saying its a bad rule, and there's no need to be defensive about it. It's just different than what we initially expected based on previous experience with similar games, that's all.
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Robin REEVE
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lordrahvin wrote:
We're not saying its a bad rule, and there's no need to be defensive about it.
I don't see anyone being defensive or offensive.
I find the discussion quite reasonable.
When I presented arguments in favour of the rule, it was only at reason level - nothing passional, nothing to defend.
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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Robin wrote:
lordrahvin wrote:
We're not saying its a bad rule, and there's no need to be defensive about it.
I don't see anyone being defensive or offensive.
I find the discussion quite reasonable.

I'm sorry I meant to delete this post, but started having internet issues. I feel that my own post was inappropriately defensive in tone and not at all constructive. I'll just strike-through it all instead.
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