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Subject: Euro vs Ameritrash. rss

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Johan Haglert
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mbosely wrote:
So yea, I'm new here. I've seen the terms "euro" and "ameritrash". I'd like clarification of what these mean. Yes, I know I may be exposed to some bias in these discriptions.
Others have already put links for explainations but then some others talk about locations and I don't think that make any sense at all.

I don't know what the official definition would be but I would describe it as:

Euro - Likely a set environment / little randomness with much open information. No player elimination. Likely strict/rather straight mechanics and rules.

Ameritrash - Think the opposite of the above as in cards with may have their own functionality or game changing affect, random draws / dice rolls = unsure results/outcome. Possibly player elminination.



The euro environment may feel more samy with similar strategies / things which work (interaction between players may interfere with that though.)

The ameritrash environment may allow for more flavor, variation and cool happenings but with somewhat less control of what will happen or be the outcome of things.
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David K
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Love 'em even if a few games get scuttled from time to time.
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I think you'll find that most people play and enjoy both to some extent. There's an eternal war over:

1) what the exact definitions of both are
2) which category controversial game X falls into
3) whether the term 'ameritrash' is offensive or not

I wouldn't worry too much about any of those, but they always make for lively threads laugh
 
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Johan Haglert
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CarlG wrote:
I am curious where the connection between "Euro" and lack of dice/randomness comes from? Is there a catalog of older games that had these before this newer wave? For me Settlers defines "Euro" for me as it was the earliest game I learned of in this genre. After that it was stuff like Carcassonne and TTR that have their fair share of luck. Even today the Euro's I enjoy all have an element of chance and many have dice. The only games I see in the "no luck" category are worker placement games which seem to be a newer development. What would be luck/dice free Euro's that people would point to as defining Euro?
I don't know how much "euro" I'd call Catan considering this. I guess it fits more into being a european boardgame / german. And about collecting points which is a major thing in many eurogames.

I thought about mentioning points above but I didn't know how important it felt. But I guess it's important.

Eurogame - Most often you collect points while playing and there's "winner" by a game state or reach a specific point. The game ends and everyone count their points and the person with the most points win.

(Ameritrash in this case would be that someone win by a state, like everyone else is dead, or some of your resources run out in battlestar galactica, ..)

Catan fits well on that one.

Catan also fits well into being about trading / producing / building things, which are common themes in the eurogames.
 
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Brian Hoare
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GilgaTex wrote:
And what is abstract? I've heard the term thrown around before but no one could really define it to my satisfaction.


To my mind, an abstract is any game with no pretension to having a theme. So, stuff like Chess, Draughts, Chinese Checkers, Connect Four, Quoridor, Backgammon.

--

Then there is the grey area of games which do have a "theme" but one which seems to be have been chosen to fit the game rather than informing the 'game model'.
 
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Carl Garber
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Johan: Do you have any examples of these "no luck Euro's"? Obviously Settlers is the "Euro" game that got many of us into this hobby, so I am curious about the games that must have come before Settlers that established this "no luck" definition of euros.
 
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Johan Haglert
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Do you do things because you want to -> Ameritrash or to score points -> Eurogame?

;D

Do you build a church because priests are bloody awesome or because you can get two points later by having priests? =P
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Johan Haglert
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CarlG wrote:
Johan: Do you have any examples of these "no luck Euro's"? Obviously Settlers is the "Euro" game that got many of us into this hobby, so I am curious about the games that must have come before Settlers that established this "no luck" definition of euros.
I haven't played all that much or for all that long and don't claim that my answer is better than yours =P. Or the truth.

Why do it have to have come before Catan? Because Catan was called a euro and hence it must have been defined?

To me Puerto Rico for instance have no luck outside of the selections the players do.

I guess if one want to pull this very far one can start questioning whatever we have a free will or not.
 
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Johan Haglert
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Miser wrote:
To my mind, an abstract is any game with no pretension to having a theme. So, stuff like Chess, Draughts, Chinese Checkers, Connect Four, Quoridor, Backgammon.
Isn't it rather easy to see Chess as a game of war / a wargame rather than an abstract with random pieces moving in whatever way and with a goal state?
 
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Carey J
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aliquis wrote:
Miser wrote:
To my mind, an abstract is any game with no pretension to having a theme. So, stuff like Chess, Draughts, Chinese Checkers, Connect Four, Quoridor, Backgammon.
Isn't it rather easy to see Chess as a game of war / a wargame rather than an abstract with random pieces moving in whatever way and with a goal state?


Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I like jjloc's definition better. That makes sense to me.
 
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chris thatcher
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We have free will because..

A: we have no choice Or
B: The boss says we do
 
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Johan Haglert
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GilgaTex wrote:
aliquis wrote:
Miser wrote:
To my mind, an abstract is any game with no pretension to having a theme. So, stuff like Chess, Draughts, Chinese Checkers, Connect Four, Quoridor, Backgammon.
Isn't it rather easy to see Chess as a game of war / a wargame rather than an abstract with random pieces moving in whatever way and with a goal state?


Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I like jjloc's definition better. That makes sense to me.
Yeah. That one seem nice to me to.

For instance I would say Neuroshima Hex works good as an "abstract" with asymmetrical factions (even though you draw tiles.)

(The theme I'd say is very unnecessary there but there exist one )
 
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Brian Hoare
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GilgaTex wrote:
aliquis wrote:
Miser wrote:
To my mind, an abstract is any game with no pretension to having a theme. So, stuff like Chess, Draughts, Chinese Checkers, Connect Four, Quoridor, Backgammon.
Isn't it rather easy to see Chess as a game of war / a wargame rather than an abstract with random pieces moving in whatever way and with a goal state?


Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I like jjloc's definition better. That makes sense to me.


I'd be happy to strike Chess from the list. The post was a distillation of what was becoming an essay...

...but I'd argue with jjloc's definition as I consider Quoridor an abstract and players get to move pieces AND place walls. So two actions. :)
 
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Carl Garber
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Johan: I say before Settlers because of the popularity of Settlers and the fact that I think most people start thinking of "Eurogames" in terms of their early experiences with Settlers, Carcassonne, etc. I figuire any definition of Eurogame should be broad enough to include such an iconic game as Settlers in its definition unless that definition happened to be around before Settlers (of which possibly Settlers was a "hybrid" of, that just happened to have mass appeal). However, I do understand that the meaning of words shift over time. Also, I understand that people will likely define terms according to their expereince as well. So for me Eurogame means:

1) shorter playing time(under 2 hours)
2) (mostly) indirect interaction(most interaction through denial, or taking things first)
3) different strategies or emphases to follow
4) luck can play a part, but skill will play the bigger part in who wins.
5) usually a simpler rule set(not very many exceptions)
6) well balanced
7) more pedestrian themes
 
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Jeff Hinrickson
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Miser wrote:
GilgaTex wrote:
aliquis wrote:
Miser wrote:
To my mind, an abstract is any game with no pretension to having a theme. So, stuff like Chess, Draughts, Chinese Checkers, Connect Four, Quoridor, Backgammon.
Isn't it rather easy to see Chess as a game of war / a wargame rather than an abstract with random pieces moving in whatever way and with a goal state?


Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I like jjloc's definition better. That makes sense to me.


I'd be happy to strike Chess from the list. The post was a distillation of what was becoming an essay...

...but I'd argue with jjloc's definition as I consider Quoridor an abstract and players get to move pieces AND place walls. So two actions.


I would agree, however you said in Quoridor you Move AND place. Your turn is the same round after round, you don't have options.
 
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E Butler
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mbosely wrote:
So yea, I'm new here. I've seen the terms "euro" and "ameritrash". I'd like clarification of what these mean. Yes, I know I may be exposed to some bias in these discriptions.


Figures, dice, messy action = Ameritrash

Pasted on theme, cold logic, abhors outright displays of violence = Eurotrash



Hope that helps - as good of an explanation as those 10 pagers people write up about the schism.

BTW - tipped you 15 GG to get an avatar. Choose wisely!
 
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Uncle Ralf
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Things I've learned from BGG:
#1. You do not speak about Eurogames and Ameritrash on the same page
#2. You do NOT speak about Eurogames and Ameritrash on the same page




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Clinton Coddington
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Drummyralf wrote:
Things I've learned from BGG:
#1. You do not speak about Eurogames and Ameritrash on the same page
#2. You do NOT speak about Eurogames and Ameritrash on the same page






How very true.
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