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Subject: How to "best" play TMI? rss

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Sebastian Barth
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This question has bothered me for a while, because TMI seems to be borderline coaster quality to me. But since this is a complex game, there are likely things I am missing about TMI. Please BGG help me like this card ;)

So here is what I currently see:

Best case (and unrealistic) scenario: You are a rich and the runner is poor without any Link. Now you can rez TMI and keep it rezzed easily. But putting TMI into your deck on the fringe case that you are far ahead in economy feels like a bad decision to me. If you have that much more credits to spend than the runner, you don't win because of TMI you win due to your strong economy.

2nd best (and realistic) scenario: You play NBN (Making News) vs. a Link-less runner and both sides have some credits to spare. This is probably a reasonable situation for TMI to be used in. Am I right assuming that people who play TMI in their NBN decks are "hoping" for roughly this situation?

I'd like to create an example for this 2nd scenario.

So you are playing NBN Making News and the runner is Whizzard (or any non-Kate so far). You have a reasonably strong first turn of:

Click 1: Play Hedge Fund
Click 2: Ice R&D (TMI)
Click 3: Ice HQ (whatever, let's say Enigma or other strong early ICE)

Question 1: Would you be happy to play such a first turn? (Barring small differences like switching the ICE or Beanstalk Royalties instead of Hedge Fund)

Now the runner also has some economy:

Click 1: Play Sure Gamble
Click 2: Run R&D

Question 2: Do you rez TMI and how far do you pump the trace? (Both sides have 9 credits before rezzing and you got your 2 NBN creds)

Maybe I am way off with this example for using TMI, but maybe I can get some insight on the card that I am missing.

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Yan
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Well your scenario is far from ideal. Rich runner on turn 1 ? But it is not uncommon for the runner to not get a nifty burst eco boost in starting hand.

Note that you don't need one either as NBN.

The runner often run early not in the hope of accessing anything but actually to find out which ice the corp is using and also forcing the corp to spend money to rez stuff (resources denial).

So the runner run TMI and you rez it. BAM ! The runner suddenly need to pay 4 credits to keep it down (NBN). This is likely the first turn and the runner is not so rich and is planing to use those credits to play some cards of is own. It is very possible for the runner to not pay up and save his or her credits.

Paying would turn this into poor resources denial as the runner would pay 4 where the corp only paid 3.

But if the runner do pay for it because he or she really don't want to deal with a 5 str barrier after, the runner is now 4 credits poorer.

If rezzing it is important for you (don't plan on replacing it any time soon) you have the option to pay 2 extra credits. The runner is not likely to have more then 5 credits on his or her 1rst turn early run. Trace 6 is harsh.

paying 5 credits for a 5 str barrier that is ETR is decend in my opinion. But if you can rez this for 3 credits it even better.

Later in the game TMI is less good. TMI is really something you want to setup early in the game. Preferably as NBN.
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Rafał Cywicki
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TMI is good against Anarch (they're poor) and it's mostly a native card in NBN. Strenght 5 for 3 creds is a good deal imho, and as NBN you won't have much trouble rezzing it.

Also when Trace Amount comes out you can easily pair it up with Amazon Industrial.

It's far from a useless card
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Steven Tu
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If you rez TMI in this instance and pump the 2 extra creds into the trace it's a trace 4. If the runner pays for it they will get through but you will have nullified the Sure Gamble for accessing unknown, which to me is definitely a good deal in the opening.

Of course if he hits an agenda you'll say TMI sucks, but that's not the really correct.

If he doesn't pay for it then you'll have a 5 strength wall for 3 and he'll bounce off of it cos he lacks a breaker. If he gets a breaker later, a corroder will spend 4 a run breaking it.

TMI is decent in NBN. Otherwise I'm not so sure. It's a replacement of early ice that can be decent later (compared to a wall of static), and played later it could be almost useless, but a wall of static would also be pretty useless.
 
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Sebastian Barth
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Zhab wrote:
Well your scenario is far from ideal. Rich runner on turn 1 ? But it is not uncommon for the runner to not get a nifty burst eco boost in starting hand.

I just wanted to have both sides on equal ground (Hedge Fund + Sure Gamble), because TMI seems to be an early ICE and I find it unreasonable to expect a significant economical lead for the corp in the early game. The example would probably be similar with both sides at 6 credits instead of 9.


Zhab wrote:
The runner often run early not in the hope of accessing anything but actually to find out which ice the corp is using and also forcing the corp to spend money to rez stuff (resources denial).

But, if the runner derezzes your TMI he certainly has found out which ICE you are running.

Zhab wrote:
So the runner run TMI and you rez it. BAM ! The runner suddenly need to pay 4 credits to keep it down (NBN). This is likely the first turn and the runner is not so rich and is planing to use those credits to play some cards of is own. It is very possible for the runner to not pay up and save his or her credits.

Paying would turn this into poor resources denial as the runner would pay 4 where the corp only paid 3.

This is probably my point. I think it is the right move for the runner to pay 4 and derez TMI.

Zhab wrote:
If rezzing it is important for you (don't plan on replacing it any time soon) you have the option to pay 2 extra credits. The runner is not likely to have more then 5 credits on his or her 1rst turn early run. Trace 6 is harsh.

I agree with you here, I just find that this situation is not occuring reliably enough to justify including TMI in your deck.
 
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Sebastian Barth
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chomoon wrote:
TMI is good against Anarch (they're poor) and it's mostly a native card in NBN. Strenght 5 for 3 creds is a good deal imho, and as NBN you won't have much trouble rezzing it.

Well, NBN is not exactly rich either. I usually pay the trace, so NBN does have some trouble rezzing it. Spending 1 more credit than the corp (NBN) does, feels worthwhile to me for accessing 1 card and derezzing TMI.

chomoon wrote:
Also when Trace Amount comes out you can easily pair it up with Amazon Industrial.

There is Amazon Industrial Zone and then there is Compromised Employee :P
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Yan
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sirprim wrote:
I just wanted to have both sides on equal ground (Hedge Fund + Sure Gamble)

Why make an uncommon scenario where both player plays a burst eco on turn 1 be your "equal ground". Why not use the standard and very common both have about 5 credits on turn 1.
sirprim wrote:
But, if the runner derezzes your TMI he certainly has found out which ICE you are running.

At the hefty cost of 4 credits. The runner wants to do this for free. Otherwise it's almost pointless in my opinion. I mean 4 credits is wnat it cost to bypass with corroder.

sirprim wrote:
This is probably my point. I think it is the right move for the runner to pay 4 and derez TMI.

Be my guess. I'll enjoy your slow start as a corp as I get additional time to set things up.

sirprim wrote:
I agree with you here, I just find that this situation is not occuring reliably enough to justify including TMI in your deck.


That is fair enough. TMI is not for everyone.
 
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Sebastian Barth
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Tuism wrote:
If he gets a breaker later, a corroder will spend 4 a run breaking it.

That is exactly my line of thought. A Corroder (or Battering Ram) will cost the runner 4 credits to break a rezzed TMI, so why not "break" TMI without your Corroder in play for 4 credits now AND derezzing it? At least that's what I usually do.

Tuism wrote:
TMI is decent in NBN.

I have yet to be convinced ;)
TMI feels pretty useless to me even in NBN.
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Sebastian Barth
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Zhab wrote:
Why make an uncommon scenario where both player plays a burst eco on turn 1 be your "equal ground". Why not use the standard and very common both have about 5 credits on turn 1.

It is just an example and both sides at 5 credits would be roughly the same situation as both sides sitting on 9, wouldn't it? I guess I picked Hedge Fund from intuition, but it is certainly not needed for this example. Being on equal ground on turn 1 is what can be reliably expected IMO.

Zhab wrote:
At the hefty cost of 4 credits. The runner wants to do this for free. Otherwise it's almost pointless in my opinion. I mean 4 credits is wnat it cost to bypass with corroder.

So why not pay 4 credits now without even having your fracter out AND derezzing TMI at the same time?
 
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Yan
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sirprim wrote:
It is just an example and both sides at 5 credits would be roughly the same situation as both sides sitting on 9, wouldn't it?

No really and I've explained why.
sirprim wrote:
So why not pay 4 credits now without even having your fracter out AND derezzing TMI at the same time?

Because now you have to spend 4 clicks to get your money back so that you can finally begin installing stuff.

Meanwhile the corp is drawing new cards and is having more time to install stuff. Installing is free for the corp and have the luxury of paying later and only if ever needed.

You'll both have your money back at about the same time, only now the corp doesn't have to spend time installing stuff or drawing cards.

You are both back at square one, only the corp had a few extra actions and is now in a slightly better position.

As I said before, the value of a single credit changes as the game unfolds. A single credit is far more valuable in the early game than it is in the late game.

paying 4 credits early in the game is not equivalent to paying 4 credits later. It's harsher early in the game.
 
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Sebastian Barth
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Zhab wrote:
sirprim wrote:
It is just an example and both sides at 5 credits would be roughly the same situation as both sides sitting on 9, wouldn't it?

No really and I've explained why.

Not sure I can follow you here. Are you saying that the example would be significantly different if both sides were at 5 rather than 9 credits?


Zhab wrote:
paying 4 credits early in the game is not equivalent to paying 4 credits later. It's harsher early in the game.

I agree with this in general, but I don't think it paints the whole picture in this case, because the runner is not "just" paying 4 creds now instead of later. The corp also has to pay an extra 3 credits later (when he rezzes TMI again) and the runner probably has free reign on the TMI server this turn (because the NBN credits are spent).
 
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Yan
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sirprim wrote:
Zhab wrote:
sirprim wrote:
It is just an example and both sides at 5 credits would be roughly the same situation as both sides sitting on 9, wouldn't it?

No really and I've explained why.

Not sure I can follow you here. Are you saying that the example would be significantly different if both sides were at 5 rather than 9 credits?


Yes, here what you mist.

Zhab wrote:
If rezzing it is important for you (don't plan on replacing it any time soon) you have the option to pay 2 extra credits. The runner is not likely to have more then 5 credits on his or her 1rst turn early run. Trace 6 is harsh.

paying 5 credits for a 5 str barrier that is ETR is decend in my opinion. But if you can rez this for 3 credits it even better.


=======================================================

sirprim wrote:
I agree with this in general, but I don't think it paints the whole picture in this case, because the runner is not "just" paying 4 creds now instead of later. The corp also has to pay an extra 3 credits later (when he rezzes TMI again) and the runner probably has free reign on the TMI server this turn (because the NBN credits are spent).


You assume that the corp will rez it again. It already crippled the start game of the runner. Job well done I say. Trash replace it and move on or install above it.

Optionally, 6 credits for a str 5 ETR barrier is not exactly awful. If the runner pays 4 credits again it's roughly the same as it being bypassed by corroder. Now that you used it twice, trash replace and move on.

But as re-mentioned above, if you play this early on with the clear intention to rez and keep this for the rest of the game and that it's vital for you, just pay 5 up front and be done with it (unless the runner was lucky enough to start with sure gamble that is).
 
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Pictured: Rags Raggerson, successful businesscat
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TMI is going to have some nice synergies with other cards like that ugprade that gives a tag every time you successfully trace and is a good counter against Spinal Modem.
 
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James Finkle
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Spending 3 credits to make the runner spend 4 credits is a pretty solid deal, especially early. I might decide to do it more than once even. The only time I wouldn't is if they were playing Kate and could easily explode their link in the next few turns.
 
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Wesley Kinslow
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I see TMI as a card that doesn't cost what it has printed on the card.

If you rez a TMI and you don't have the credits open to beat the runner uncontested then you're doing it wrong. That usually means that TMI, while it has a rez cost of 3 printed on it, usually costs 7-10. Sometimes it costs only three but that is pretty rare.

Is a 6-7 rez cost worth it for a generic 5 strength wall? Sometimes. Is 10-11 credits worth it? Hell no.

I don't think TMI is a fantastic card but it certainly isn't very good. Having said that I still run it in NBN... I just won't really run NBN until the corp can do something about base link, especially now that Dyson Mem Chip is a thing.
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Sebastian Barth
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Zhab wrote:
snip

Personally I don't see the point why the early game resources should be more precious to the runner than to the Corp. I agree that early game resources are more valuable than late game resources, but if both sides start on 5 credits, then the Corp will also pay with some very precious early game credits. The two leftover credits won't be enough to rez Wall of Static/Enigma or activate a Snare for example.

In the case of trashing TMI, I don't think that is what the Corp "wants" when playing TMI. The Corp doesn't even come out ahead in terms of click efficiency (another can of worms I'd prefer to not open in this thread).

In the end I guess we can agree to disagree.
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Sebastian Barth
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ffaristocrat wrote:
TMI is going to have some nice synergies with other cards like that ugprade that gives a tag every time you successfully trace and is a good counter against Spinal Modem.

Hmmm, maybe I am just thinking very differently about this case than most, but TMI seems rather counter-synergistic with those cards you mention, mostly because now the runner has even more incentive to derez TMI (which he already has plenty IMO). Additionally especially a Spinal Modem deck will likely run some extra link, shutting down TMI pretty hard. And you can never get more than 1 successful trace with TMI in the first place.
 
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Sebastian Barth
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wildfire393 wrote:
Spending 3 credits to make the runner spend 4 credits is a pretty solid deal, especially early. I might decide to do it more than once even. The only time I wouldn't is if they were playing Kate and could easily explode their link in the next few turns.

Well, if you could do that over and over it would be good for the Corp, but after the first encounter the decision lies with the runner, so he gets to decide whether to make that trade.
And wouldn't you rather have a rezzed TMI costing the runner 4 credits with his Corroder instead of paying 3 credits yourself each time the runner runs on TMI and pays 4?
 
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El-ad David Amir
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I'm surprised that nobody is mentioning Akitaro Watanabe. Once TMI's cost goes down to one, if the Runner has no Trace he needs to match two Credits for each one of yours. TMI becomes a powerful five-strength Barrier, especially vs. low-link decks.
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Peter O
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You also get a minor gain with ChiLo should you be successful.
 
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Sebastian Barth
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Hmmm, seems like most people disagree.

But no matter if I am right or wrong, this is a very good sign for the game imo. Nothing is worse than everybody having the same opinion and ending up with the same decks/strategies/decisions.
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Eric F
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The best way to play TMI is to install it on a remote, install an agenda (preferably Breaking News/Autoscript), and start advancing it.

1) TMI is only useful if you get to rez it.
2) The only time you can rez it "reliably" is early game.
3) You can only rez it if the runner runs against it and sees a threat there.
4) You need to put a threat there in order to get a runner to run against it so that you can rez it early.

===

a) If TMI isn't a threat right now, it won't be late game; more money, datasucker + corroder, shapers building link. If you get to rez it, assume it's only Trace 4 when deciding what agenda to install behind it; you want to save all your actual credits for advancement, and then only dump credits from your hand equal to keep it rezzed vs the runner.

b) If you can damage a runner's economy for 1 agenda point, it's worth it. Make the runner decide if they REALLY want to go down to just 1 or 2 credits to get through. You don't always have to cover a runner to hamper them. Either way, it's an interesting tradeoff and gameplay decision for them. More fun!

c) When comparing TMI and Wall of Static, it's essentially +2 strength for a trace 4. Wall of static might be guaranteed to flip, but here's the thing; a runner holding onto a Corroder can pretty easily slip one into play (2 credits), and then run into your Wall of Static and break it (2 credits). 4 credits, and a surprise corroder, to negate your Wall of Static and nick your agenda...oof! Pretty easy to get, and surprise you...and I don't like surprises. Even Rabbit Hole + immediate run would irk me, but that's 4 credits...not counting the trace. The runner just dumped 4 credits to boost their link by 2, and then...has no credits to re-boost the trace! It's a tradeoff, and if you've already got an agenda in there...get it into your score pile before they can build up credits and actually blast through TMI.

4) So, you've scored an early game agenda behind that TMI. Now that runner has 7 link or a rig with Corroder/Ram/Crypsis, and TMI with its 5 strength isn't even a threat anymore. Put your PADs and Adonis behind it. A runner will likely not think it worth it to dump their credits to get in, to pay an ADDITIONAL 4 to trash it (Whizzard kinda laughs...but he's Whizzard.) TMI is still a sturdy barrier, but you should move onto a new remote server with better protection. Or, you can further ice this one up and install another agenda in it, making TMI not the only threat to deal with when trying to attack it.
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sirprim wrote:
ffaristocrat wrote:
TMI is going to have some nice synergies with other cards like that ugprade that gives a tag every time you successfully trace and is a good counter against Spinal Modem.

Hmmm, maybe I am just thinking very differently about this case than most, but TMI seems rather counter-synergistic with those cards you mention, mostly because now the runner has even more incentive to derez TMI (which he already has plenty IMO). Additionally especially a Spinal Modem deck will likely run some extra link, shutting down TMI pretty hard. And you can never get more than 1 successful trace with TMI in the first place.


The consequences means that the Runner has to pay up to beat the trace.

And then you try to rez TMI again.

It's the ability to keep tracing (at a premium granted) until you win that creates the synergies.
 
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El-ad David Amir
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ignisphaseone wrote:
1) TMI is only useful if you get to rez it.
2) The only time you can rez it "reliably" is early game.

I will dispute both of these points. One, the best piece of Ice is the one you never need to rez. If you install Chum in front of TMI, you can buy a lot of time before the Runner braves it, making TMI useful. Two, you can rez TMI reliably mid- to late-game as well: for example, with Akitaro Watanabe vs. a deck with no Link, or vs. Anarch (who is low on cash), or vs. Shaper who does not use Magnum Opus, or if you got a couple of turns off Melange Mining Corporation, or under many other circumstances.
 
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Steven Tu
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IirionClaus wrote:
ignisphaseone wrote:
1) TMI is only useful if you get to rez it.
2) The only time you can rez it "reliably" is early game.

I will dispute both of these points. One, the best piece of Ice is the one you never need to rez. If you install Chum in front of TMI, you can buy a lot of time before the Runner braves it, making TMI useful. Two, you can rez TMI reliably mid- to late-game as well: for example, with Akitaro Watanabe vs. a deck with no Link, or vs. Anarch (who is low on cash), or vs. Shaper who does not use Magnum Opus, or if you got a couple of turns off Melange Mining Corporation, or under many other circumstances.


I would dispute that because you had to outline "optimal" situations that it's not "reliably" rezzable mid game

But that's really semantics. I don't think I've rezzed TMI reliably mid game at all, but that's my experience.
 
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