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Subject: What's to stop Human players cheating on the hidden dice rolling? rss

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Ecosmith Ecosmith
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Players can lie about their dice rolls in this game, am I right? If so, what's to stop all players choosing the most optimum 'results' for themselves, every roll?

Eco
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Thomas Staudt
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Ecosmith wrote:
Players can lie about their dice rolls in this game, am I right? If so, what's to stop all players choosing the most optimum 'results' for themselves, every roll?

Eco


Etiquette?
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Guido Gloor
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Modesty, common sense, good manners and the will to not induce the wrath of your fellow players should they ever catch you cheating.

I wouldn't invite a known cheater to any of my game nights.
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Heiko Günther
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How about: The rules? They state clearly that you roll the dice and pick from your roll, so you are simply not allowed to 'choose your most optimum result' instead of using the one you rolled. As Guido points out, what you suggest is called cheating, a mechanism not implemented in this game.
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Ecosmith Ecosmith
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I don't cheat either, and my gaming group doesn't, but there's no checking mechanic in this game is there? AM I right in assuming that at no stage ever is another player supposed to see your results, until you bring a dice out and state what result it shows? I'm not sure I like the concept of essentially not having any tension as to waht a die roll could result in. I haven't played it, but it seems a bit anticlimactic.

It also sounds a bit like what might happen if you had a bare dice-off, with the results hidden:

"OK, I rolled a 6. What did you roll?"
"Er...a 6! how's about that!"

Is it possible for a game to come down to one dice roll? I wouldn't want to be in the position of a human deciding between any of his 4 fail dice results or lying to get a win, or conversely a Cylon player doing the same.

Eco

EDIT: As for 'known cheater', how would you know?
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ackmondual
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Ecosmith wrote:
I don't cheat either, and my gaming group doesn't, but there's no checking mechanic in this game is there? AM I right in assuming that at no stage ever is another player supposed to see your results, until you bring a dice out and state what result it shows? I'm not sure I like the concept of essentially not having any tension as to waht a die roll could result in. I haven't played it, but it seems a bit anticlimactic.

It also sounds a bit like what might happen if you had a bare dice-off, with the results hidden:

"OK, I rolled a 6. What did you roll?"
"Er...a 6! how's about that!"

Is it possible for a game to come down to one dice roll? I wouldn't want to be in the position of a human deciding between any of his 4 fail dice results or lying to get a win, or conversely a Cylon player doing the same.

Eco

EDIT: As for 'known cheater', how would you know?

The temptation's certainly there. I ended up adding this to my geeklist...
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/143483/item/2469244#it...

i think the idea is it takes a certain player to do play this sort of way. Hell, some people who are fans of BSG end up not liking BSG b/c they're not the kind of person to deceive and manipulate people like how some people do.... not mentioning OPG/special/skill card powers, esp. to newbies, and accusing others of being a cylon to the point of almost tirading them. These are certainly legit, but to some, they cross lines that they'd rather not.


It's possible someone will cheat, be good at it, and you'll never know. if you need verifiable lies, then this may not be the game for u then. I know several others here on BGG have expressed * this concern, and some BSG players extend that to say they don't like playing BSG bg with both expansions with the Helo + Felix variant where they each roll their die in secret for FTL Control.


* the pun was purely accidental, i swear
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Evan Derrick
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No, there's nothing to stop someone from cheating. They could easily flip one of their dice to a better result under their cup before submitting it to the board. There's really not a good, elegant solution to this problem. Basically, it comes down to, "Don't play with people who cheat."

I love hidden deduction games like Scotland Yard and Nuns on the Run, games that force the 'hidden' players to chart their progress on paper that can then be checked later to ensure that no one has cheated. I have never, EVER, double checked someone's sheet to make sure they didn't cheat.

So, while there's no 'cheat-prevention' mechanism in the game, I find that even in games that DO have such mechanisms, I nor the groups that I play with ever use them.
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Guido Gloor
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Ecosmith wrote:
As for 'known cheater', how would you know?

It's easily possible that I wouldn't. All the worse if you'd be caught
 
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Tracy Smith
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Create 4 Trouble pop dice rollers per player -- you'll definitely hear the popping if they try to re-roll.
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ackmondual
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Puquak wrote:
Create 4 Trouble pop dice rollers per player -- you'll definitely hear the popping if they try to re-roll.
How do you open those things.... just pull really hard?
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John "Omega" Williams
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Aside from the rules themselves. Nothing is there to check a player cheating. You also do not know who submitted what.

But. It can become readily apparent if someone IS cheating if certain rolls show up at opportune times too frequently.

This is the type of game that is playable only with a group you trust.

As with any sort of game. If someone is hellbent on cheating, then they will find a way, or at least think they have.

This is a game that will place temptation right there - every single round - everyone.

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Ecosmith Ecosmith
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It's the one thing putting me off printing this game. The entire game being a series of declarations seems no different in presentation from 'choose a number'.

Part of the fun of rolling dice for us is seeing them ratyle around in the dice box before spinning on a corner and ending up on that needed nber or not.

Eco
 
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Ecosmith Ecosmith
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Hm, maybe some sort of iPhone or Android app could be developed. One that would roll for you, and then only allow the reveal of one of the actually rolled numbers, whilst concealing the rest after the player had chosen it.

Eco
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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Totally impractical... But you could switch to cards. Players would then visibly draw from each of the decks and then visibly play a card. All without revealing.

5 bags of chits would work to.

It ads *A-LOT* if shuffling every round. But it removes the main temptation to cheat, and the main ability to cheat. (Watch out for card shark players now though...)

Problem: How do you get your card back afterwards without revealing what you played?
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Heiko Günther
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Ecosmith wrote:
Hm, maybe some sort of iPhone or Android app could be developed. One that would roll for you, and then only allow the reveal of one of the actually rolled numbers, whilst concealing the rest after the player had chosen it.
Does not sound like a lot of fun, no ratyling around, no spinning on corners, just ending up on numbers.

On the other hand, if the app would only simulate one die, with a lot of annoying sound (something thematic, perhaps that orchestra-tuning sound you hear when you almost find out you're a toaster), you could not secretly re-roll and thus cheat. Of course, you would need 4 iPads per person. And a really big table. And you would need to buy special BSG-express iPad-stands, that keep your screen hidden while you roll. Also, there needs to be some auto-update in the App that makes it only usable on the currently newest iPad.
 
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Ecosmith Ecosmith
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lee elektrik wrote:
Ecosmith wrote:
Hm, maybe some sort of iPhone or Android app could be developed. One that would roll for you, and then only allow the reveal of one of the actually rolled numbers, whilst concealing the rest after the player had chosen it.
Does not sound like a lot of fun, no ratyling around, no spinning on corners, just ending up on numbers.

On the other hand, if the app would only simulate one die, with a lot of annoying sound (something thematic, perhaps that orchestra-tuning sound you hear when you almost find out you're a toaster), you could not secretly re-roll and thus cheat. Of course, you would need 4 iPads per person. And a really big table. And you would need to buy special BSG-express iPad-stands, that keep your screen hidden while you roll. Also, there needs to be some auto-update in the App that makes it only usable on the currently newest iPad.


I said iPhone or Android app, not iPad. It's more probable that you could find other players with either iPhones or Android devices, and covering the screen while it rolls wouldn't be hard then.

Eco
 
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Jim Jones
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Omega2064 wrote:
Aside from the rules themselves. Nothing is there to check a player cheating. You also do not know who submitted what.

But. It can become readily apparent if someone IS cheating if certain rolls show up at opportune times too frequently.

This is the type of game that is playable only with a group you trust.

As with any sort of game. If someone is hellbent on cheating, then they will find a way, or at least think they have.

This is a game that will place temptation right there - every single round - everyone.



Actually, you do know what people submit. They submit it to their play area right in front of everyone and those dice get locked until their next turn.

Also, when you roll your dice, each person does it in turn and then submits them. It would be pretty easy to recognize someone flipping a die to a better or worse result as everyone is watching the person submit their dice.
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John "Omega" Williams
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You see them submit the dice. You dont see what they rolled. Just in picking up the dice to submit it a player intent on cheating has opportunity to manipulate it in that moment of picking it up to submit it as its still concealed till it comes into view.

Some players will sort the dice to make a choice. More opportunity to manipulate.

Hence the potential for trouble. Its small. But if you have a chronic cheat in the group its best not to let them near this one.
 
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Jim Jones
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You'd have to be pretty good to manipulate the dice on submission in such a way that it helps you. If you are a human you want a positive increase, if you are a cylon, you might want a positive (only slightly positive) or a negative (or only slightly negative).

Having a physical copy of the game and having played it a number of times, I don't think it is even likely that this is possible.

Get a copy and try it. I don't think you'll be successful.

If you are, you are playing with a master cheat and to that I would say, you have a friend problem, not a game problem.
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John "Omega" Williams
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Got a copy - duh - And can do it.
I wouldnt have shot you down otherwise.
With just a simple finger motion a die can be rotated at least 180 in the time it take to move it from behind my hand to into view. A simple 90 degree rotation is even easier.
 
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Jim Jones
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Omega2064 wrote:
Got a copy - duh - And can do it.
I wouldnt have shot you down otherwise.
With just a simple finger motion a die can be rotated at least 180 in the time it take to move it from behind my hand to into view. A simple 90 degree rotation is even easier.


Then, like I said, you have a friend (player) problem, not a game problem.
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John "Omega" Williams
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Well duh! Thats the point of the thread.
If someones going to cheat. Then theres nothing in game to check that other than observation. There pretty much cant be due to the nature of the game. As with any other game of this nature. It is totally reliant on player good behavior.
 
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τὰ ὄντα ἰέναι τε πάντα καὶ μένειν οὐδέν
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This seems like a silly complaint. One can pretty easily double-draw in any game that has a card drawing mechanic. And if people aren't paying close attention, it's not hard to short pay in any game with a paying mechanic. Bunch your bricks in your hand and dump them into the bank and boom you're building stuff in Agricola that you shouldn't have. Unless someone is counting the amount in the bank every time, no one's going to notice. In Ticket to Ride or 7 Wonders when counting your score, just add ten to it. No one's going to know unless you're with a group that realizes what a cheat you are and forces everyone to count out loud.

Every game has the opportunity to cheat. It is no worse in BSGExp.
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ackmondual
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Bahimiron wrote:
This seems like a silly complaint. One can pretty easily double-draw in any game that has a card drawing mechanic. And if people aren't paying close attention, it's not hard to short pay in any game with a paying mechanic. Bunch your bricks in your hand and dump them into the bank and boom you're building stuff in Agricola that you shouldn't have. Unless someone is counting the amount in the bank every time, no one's going to notice. In Ticket to Ride or 7 Wonders when counting your score, just add ten to it. No one's going to know unless you're with a group that realizes what a cheat you are and forces everyone to count out loud.

Every game has the opportunity to cheat. It is no worse in BSGExp.
I'd argue it's still somewhat worse in BSG-E, as in those games, you can still watch them like a hawk. With BSGE, you need to be able to "see past the curtain".
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Rob Huber
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Integrity, honesty, selfworth, and dignity?

Why do anything, let alone play games, with someone who has none of those.
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