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Subject: Official Errata from the Designers rss

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Alex Schönbohm
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abimilech wrote:


If those silly spelling errors are so annoying-- Go to the local Office Supply Store and purchase a Sharpie permanent marker. Make corrections as desired.


Silly or not, maybe there are some people out there who don't fancy the idea of scribbling around on the board. Besides that how would you correct the spelling errors? Cross out the erroneous name and write the correct name above? Very neat looking indeed.
I personally have no problems with the errors but I think that would be a nice thing to have and it should not be a big deal to do these corrections since they have the artwork and such.
 
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Steve Bernhardt
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Im guessing the designers had a reason, but why isn't Vietnam a battleground country? The designer notes state that superpower battlegrounds (Korea) are battleground countries, which Vietnam was not, of course. It just surprised me a bit to see Thailand a battleground country and not Vietnam
 
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Allen Doum
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Just because it isn't a battleground doesn't mean that you won't have to fight there.

In the case of Vietnam, There is the Vietnam Revolts event, which may give the USSR an entry into an area of the map that he doesn't start with access to. Since it is a Stability 1 Country, Decolonization can also mean control there.

As for the long term effects, that is what the Quagmire event is all about.

And thanks to the way influence spreads, and realignment works, the Domino Theory is alive and well in Twilight Struggle.
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David Wilson
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Cuban Missile Crisis-

Official Errata added--

Cuban Missile Crisis (card #40) -- Should not be underlined. The card does not have effects that carry beyond the current turn. Add the word “West” before Germany in the card’s text. The text refers only to West Germany.


BRUSH WAR-

Errata being considered at this time:

5) Brush War (card # 36) Text should read “Attack any country with a stability of 1 or 2. Roll a die and subtract one for every adjacent opponent-controlled country ..."

NOT YET OFFICIAL


David "the preacher" Wilson

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David Wilson
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Re: BRUSH WAR ERRATA
Brush War will not be receiving errata, but the FAQ will describe its function as a -1 die modifier for each adjacent opponent controlled country.

The major concern over this card is its use in Italy. This can be countered by controlling France, Greece, Spain, ETC. making it more difficult for another player to eliminate your influence there.

A new FAQ will be published via consimworld AND here, as soon as Jason approves it.


David "the preacher" Wilson
 
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Philip Thomas
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Controlling Spain or Greece just transfers the Brush War to those countries, admittedly better for US than taking Italy..Yugoslavia and Austria are good bets here. France is dicey until De Gaulle and Suez Crisis have happened...

 
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David Wilson
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Phillip,

either I misread your response re: my comments about Brush War or you misunderstood.



If the US controls SPAIN and GREECE, then a brush war hitting Italy is a -2 die roll. Should he manage to control France as well , it is a -3 and CANNOT succeed. It is a -1 die roll for EACH ADJACENT CONTROLLED COUNTRY..

Therefore, US must create protective flanks around Italy, if the US player is concerned about a possible Brush War hitting Italy.


David "the preacher" Wilson
 
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Steve Hope
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I think Philip is just making the point that the opponent will target one of those countries instead of Italy.

I don't really agree as those two are much less attractive targets, but I think that's the point...
 
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Philip Thomas
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Yeah, that was my point. Not a good point, really. Just a point, which would be fixed by the proposed cover of it by NATO.

 
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Travis Bridges
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Well, I was going to buy this game until I read this post. So, I can either pay $50 for a paper and cardboard game which has errors in the cards, on the board, and in the rules, or I can buy the new game from HiG, which includes twice as many cards, plenty of wooden pieces, a sturdy board, and rules without errors for $27. I'm sure once you play this game, it is a good one, but I demand more from a purchase. I'm surprised more wargamers don't as well. You can give me all the excuses in the world as a player or as a developer about print runs or whatever (This is P500, right? So this has had time to correct errors before printing). And it is not like this game is ASL or something. From what I have heard, this a card-driven war game that would appeal to Euro players. How hard is it to spell Chile (accent or no accent)? Was the board drawn in crayon too? I think wargame companies would have a huge backing from people who play Euro games, as I can say that about 60% that I have talked to would like 2-4 hour wargames. We've been introduced to Hammer of the Scots and Crusader Rex, which are great games but have the same gripes. So I'm not talking about just GMT here. But look at the sales of Memoir '44 and Conquest of the Empire, albeit not simulations, but within the same ballpark. We just don't buy these cardboard counter games because it is not a wise decision, and is not worth our money. Any wargame company that can get this through their head stands to actually make money. Just because there is a market for $500 automobiles that don't run very well, doesn't mean this would be your only customers. Call me when you release an error-free second (or sixth) edition. There are alot of others out there who will be waiting with me. Let the flames begin.
 
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Philip Thomas
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This is most definitely a card-driven (war)game that would appeal to Euro players. It appeals to me, after all. The errata are readily available and mostly trivial. Your decision whether to buy or not, but I recommend this game!meeple
 
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Steve Hope
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OK, I'll start...

Go play Star Wars Monopoly, Travis. I hear the pieces are great!



Edit: Argh, Philip beat me to it. But at least mine is fiestier!
 
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Travis Bridges
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Or maybe I will go play Through the Desert and Tikal, which together cost the same price and give me value in both repeated gameplay and production. Your post makes about as much sense as the "I know you are but what am I" defense.
 
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Steve Hope
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Well, my response was meant to be lighthearted. I hope that came through, and I'm surprised if it didn't.

If you want a real answer...

I think it's rude to insinuate that the designers/producers/etc. of this product are somehow to be sneered at because there were typos on the map ("drawn in crayon?"). The economics of making a game like Twilight Struggle have been discussed here and elsewhere at great length (short version: they suck), and if the designers didn't catch every last flaw in the production process I can't really blame them. They wanted to create a GAME that people would love to play, not spend a ton of time proofreading and defending against production gremlins--which I'm sure they did anyway for unpaid hours! I think they've succeeded in creating that game.

The economics of the industry don't support producing a game like TS to a production standard like that for War of the Ring (to pick a game I also like with a much higher product quality and lower price), which has probably sold 5-10 times as many copies (just guessing, I have no idea). If wooden pieces are that important to you, maybe these games aren't for you. Go play Tikal, and I don't mean that to slight Tikal.

You're not telling anyone anything they don't know, Travis. It's just that the math doesn't work.
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David Wilson
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chicagometh wrote:
Well, I was going to buy this game until I read this post. So, I can either pay $50 for a paper and cardboard game which has errors in the cards, on the board, and in the rules, or I can buy the new game from HiG, which includes twice as many cards, plenty of wooden pieces, a sturdy board, and rules without errors for $27. I'm sure once you play this game, it is a good one, but I demand more from a purchase. I'm surprised more wargamers don't as well. You can give me all the excuses in the world as a player or as a developer about print runs or whatever (This is P500, right? So this has had time to correct errors before printing). And it is not like this game is ASL or something. From what I have heard, this a card-driven war game that would appeal to Euro players. How hard is it to spell Chile (accent or no accent)? Was the board drawn in crayon too? I think wargame companies would have a huge backing from people who play Euro games, as I can say that about 60% that I have talked to would like 2-4 hour wargames. We've been introduced to Hammer of the Scots and Crusader Rex, which are great games but have the same gripes. So I'm not talking about just GMT here. But look at the sales of Memoir '44 and Conquest of the Empire, albeit not simulations, but within the same ballpark. We just don't buy these cardboard counter games because it is not a wise decision, and is not worth our money. Any wargame company that can get this through their head stands to actually make money. Just because there is a market for $500 automobiles that don't run very well, doesn't mean this would be your only customers. Call me when you release an error-free second (or sixth) edition. There are alot of others out there who will be waiting with me. Let the flames begin.



So Euros are error free? What sort of elitist attitude is that? And why did you troll in here just looking to start a flame war?

I think it is quite amazing that you would condemn a game without playing it? Sort of a judgmental attitude. I didn't much care for the spelling errors either. But, you've missed out on one of the greatest games ever made because of your attitude. We aren't missing you.. you are missing the game.

David "the preacher" Wilson
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Troy Adlington
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The value for money in a game is not in the components, its in the design and playability.

I can grab Monopoly for very little, but no matter how gorgeous the map and pieces I will hardly enjoy them.

Twilight (now after a few plays) looks like it will be a mainstay 2 player game for myself and my friends for many years to come. Compare that with say going to a movie for 2-3 hours at X dollars/euros and you soon work out that a well played game pays itself off relatively quickly.

The pricepoint of a game that expects to sell under 5000 units will be quite different to one that expects to sell in the tens of thousands. Anyone unaware of this fact probably should review their schooling system.

As a Corollary a game that expects to sell in the tens of thousands of units (and if a hit in the hundreds of thousands...thats how big the European market is for these) can afford a bigger initial production cost on chrome (components and map). The cost of these for such a producer is offset by ordering in quantity and having contractors that have made such components before and therefore not having to pay onset costs every single time you want something made!

I shake my head at the diatribe by Travis and I am consoled by the fact he won't get to play it!

yours crankily,

Troy

PS My 2nd cranky post on this game forum. I might be typecast as the grumpygeek soon
 
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Travis Bridges
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Why does everybody bring up Monopoly? I think this has become standard gamer defense against critique from Joe Schmoe. But I am a gamer just like you and haven't played Monopoly since I was a kid. Step back, take a look at your attachments and think for a second, instead of spitting out a third grade response to a serious issue.

What I am saying is that I am attempting to answer the chicken and the egg question of which comes first: the poor components or the poor sales. I say it's the poor components because I refuse to pay alot for something and get very little in return. If the components were better (not just pieces, but at least proofreading), many people who play predominantly Euros would switch over quite a bit and buy games like this. But they aren't going to start on a game that goes for twice as much as many other great games, has blatant typos, and offers very little in the way of durability.

Or are you saying games like this don't sell well because of their theme which only appeals to wargamers? Most Euros are very light on theme. Who gives a crap about creating kingdoms in Mesopotamia? I care very little, but a game like Tigris and Euphrates seems to sell well with great components at a decent price for what you receive. And again, we are not talking about a wargame with a 50 page rule book trying to obtain a simulation feel. I expect a game as detailed as that to have some issues and develop over time (I would expect them to spell the countries of the world correctly, but whatever).

Also, I don't think making a game like this is any more tortuous than the production of a medium to heavyweight Euro game, which goes through years of development and playtesting, or sometimes multiple print runs (look at Britannia by Fantasy Flight...components weren't up to snuff, sent it back....this is the type of business model that should be emulated). Yes, many Euros are not perfect, but a extremely small portion need errata or a sharpie taken to the flimsy cardboard, as someone else has suggested, and very few cost this asking price.

The gameplay must be great. It is ranked very highly. But if I said that gameplay was all I was after, I would be lying to myself. And it's not just the components I am talking about. It is the overall value of the game that is important. This was brought up by Tom Vasel and Joe Steadman on The Dice Tower about what is changing about games in recent years. No longer is the old Avalon Hill style going to work. People are starting to demand more substance and value from the games they buy, there is alot of competition now and games are getting bigger and better. Are the game companies that are still relying on this business strategy expecting little sales or settling for them and taking advantage of people like you? People like me think about it for a second and realize that they are tired of canned excuses. I would like to meet the Mom and Pop that are "struggling" to keep this company alive against the evil Walmart of Euros.

I just find it irresponsible. If I had bought this game not knowing about the geek and saw what I received for my money, I would be really ticked off. Why people defend the fact that they got taken to the cleaners is really eerie to me. I would be asking for a replacement board and cards, and a downloadable updated rule set. I think it is the same mentality of those people who have corvettes in their front yard with no wheels on them, or those people who insist their $200 copy of Reef Encounter is superior to the new $40 version. It just gets harder and harder to explain. I would really like to buy some of GMTs games, but I am on "try first buy later" policy. I am not alone here, and this is what makes their game releases risky, if you ask me.

I know there is a paradigm that exists with many wargamers and eurogamers, because they have a collector-like emotional attachment to certain ideas, and I'm not going to change many minds. But I thought it would be good for a typical eurogamer to put this out there for discussion.
 
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Steve Hope
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chicagometh wrote:
Why does everybody bring up Monopoly? I think this has become standard gamer defense against critique from Joe Schmoe. But I am a gamer just like you and haven't played Monopoly since I was a kid. Step back, take a look at your attachments and think for a second, instead of spitting out a third grade response to a serious issue.


We just use Monopoly to lampoon the idea that components are more important than playability, Travis. I don't know or care what games you play except insofar as I think it's a shame if people don't play great games because of minor typographical errors.

chicagometh wrote:
What I am saying is that I am attempting to answer the chicken and the egg question of which comes first: the poor components or the poor sales. I say it's the poor components because I refuse to pay alot for something and get very little in return. If the components were better (not just pieces, but at least proofreading), many people who play predominantly Euros would switch over quite a bit and buy games like this. But they aren't going to start on a game that goes for twice as much as many other great games, has blatant typos, and offers very little in the way of durability.


Well, that's their loss and gets back to the question of how important component quality is versus gameplay. It matters more for some than for others. Clearly it matters a lot to you. As an aside, I would guess it would take well over 200 hours of play for this game to actually suffer from meaningful physical degradation--by which point, you've probably been well-reimbursed for your cash outlay.

chicagometh wrote:
Or are you saying games like this don't sell well because of their theme which only appeals to wargamers?


Nope, that's a straw man.

chicagometh wrote:
Also, I don't think making a game like this is any more tortuous than the production of a medium to heavyweight Euro game, which goes through years of development and playtesting, or sometimes multiple print runs (look at Britannia by Fantasy Flight...components weren't up to snuff, sent it back....this is the type of business model that should be emulated). Yes, many Euros are not perfect, but a extremely small portion need errata or a sharpie taken to the flimsy cardboard, as someone else has suggested, and very few cost this asking price.


I'd agree Euros generally are well-constructed because their internal systems are simpler, so degenerate strategies are more apparent and the REALLY bad Euro-style games don't make it to market in the first place for the most part.

Your argument here seems to be a blend of game development issues and (surprise!) component quality. I would certainly agree that a much higher percentage of Eurogames that see print (at least in the US) are playable games with some semblance of balance and payoff (i.e. fun) for the time invested than are wargames. However, wargames have gotten BETTER in that regard as the print runs have gotten smaller and the component quality has gotten worse. I'd guess that many of the worst wargames produced these days are those with the best component quality (there are lots of exceptions, but check out the ratings for Eagle or Avalanche games as opposed to GMT games for example).

chicagometh wrote:
The gameplay must be great. It is ranked very highly. But if I said that gameplay was all I was after, I would be lying to myself. And it's not just the components I am talking about. It is the overall value of the game that is important. This was brought up by Tom Vasel and Joe Steadman on The Dice Tower about what is changing about games in recent years. No longer is the old Avalon Hill style going to work. People are starting to demand more substance and value from the games they buy, there is alot of competition now and games are getting bigger and better.


Great. You like components. That is clear.

chicagometh wrote:
Are the game companies that are still relying on this business strategy expecting little sales or settling for them and taking advantage of people like you? People like me think about it for a second and realize that they are tired of canned excuses. I would like to meet the Mom and Pop that are "struggling" to keep this company alive against the evil Walmart of Euros.


I have no idea what this quote means. Is your thrust here that the guys at GMT are making money hand over fist, laughing at the fools who buy their shoddy games? If so, you are woefully misinformed. If you ever happened to go to wargaming conventions, you'd meet all these shadowy billionaires. Just don't look for the Porsche with the "GMTGAMZ" vanity plate, because you'll waste a lot of time.

chicagometh wrote:
I just find it irresponsible. If I had bought this game not knowing about the geek and saw what I received for my money, I would be really ticked off. Why people defend the fact that they got taken to the cleaners is really eerie to me. I would be asking for a replacement board and cards, and a downloadable updated rule set. I think it is the same mentality of those people who have corvettes in their front yard with no wheels on them, or those people who insist their $200 copy of Reef Encounter is superior to the new $40 version. It just gets harder and harder to explain. I would really like to buy some of GMTs games, but I am on "try first buy later" policy. I am not alone here, and this is what makes their game releases risky, if you ask me.

I know there is a paradigm that exists with many wargamers and eurogamers, because they have a collector-like emotional attachment to certain ideas, and I'm not going to change many minds. But I thought it would be good for a typical eurogamer to put this out there for discussion.


I'm not really looking for decorative plastic when I buy a game. If you are, there are plenty of games out there for you. A game company doesn't need to "defend" or "explain" the quality of their components to me if I like the game and enjoy playing it for dozens of hours.

If you want to turn a game like Twilight Struggle into the eye candy that you think it needs to be to sell well among Eurogamers, I'd encourage you to step up to the plate with the $30K+ it would take to do a 5000-copy print run of the game with Euro-caliber components that can be profitably sold at lower prices. Send the designers a GeekMail and negotiate with them.

I'm sure they'd be thrilled. The people who make this kind of a game as a hobby (because they CAN'T do it for a living) would love to have someone with your insight lead them to the promised land of mass-market sales.
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Travis Bridges
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Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. I said before I don't expect to change many minds. It's just that I personally think these productions are narrow-minded fiscally and irresponsible commercially.

And you seem to selectively pick your battle without facing the issue. It is not all about components, although a large portion of my argument is. It is about lack of forethought, planning, responsibility and care for their consumers in producing a lighter wargame with a heavy price tag. I never said I thought GMT was making money hand over fist. In fact, I am sure I argued the exact opposite of that about 8 times. And as I also said, which you seem to have ignored, it is about value. Gameplay is a large portion of value, I agree. The games I buy are chockful of replay value, as I am sure this game is, which is why I was close to purchasing said game.

Where I disagree with you is ignoring that which is everything else we get when we purchase a game or anything else for that matter, such as a car or a household appliance. I don't look for plastic pieces. The games I like for the most part don't have plastic miniatures. But some care in producing the item wouldn't hurt. And these minor typographical errors you speak of go beyond what I think is acceptable for a game that costs this much. The game as it sells right now is incomplete if you have to find a way to reach people to tell them that the game is incorrect in many spots...They couldn't see this before they released it? Did they playtest this at all? I would feel ashamed to sell something in this condition, even if the game, fixed as it is, is good. Just because GMT makes little if any money on their games doesn't make buying them looking this way a good decision.

And I have decided that I am not going to martyrously (if that is a word) defend a game just because I invested money in it. Instead I would feel cheated and would ask for what I feel would be the correct reparations for the amount of money I spent. Putting up excuses, which have been become repetitive since it seems to happen for a large portion of wargames, light or heavy, is just not good enough. You said "A game company doesn't need to "defend" or "explain" the quality of their components to me if I like the game and enjoy playing it for dozens of hours." I guess not. As long as your Bentley gets you to work and back, you could care less if it came without a back seat and the rear bumper is hanging off and scraping the ground. I would feel taken advantage of.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Of course, travis is looking at a significantly higher price than what those of us who ordered P500 paid. So he's entitled to feel more annoyed about the quality issues.

Twilight struggle is a fine car, it has the rear seats etc. The paintwork is sloppy, that is all.

The small market size is a problem, and it "came first": wargames were around before eurogames and had a minimal audience even then.
 
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Alex Schönbohm
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Hi,

just my 2 cents: Proof reading is not a matter of funds and number of print runs, but a matter of organisation. Though the error of TS are by no means showstoppers, they are annoying and avoidable. They have nothing to do with the higher complexity of rule in wargames (which in the case of TS isn't high anyways), they just demonstrate bad quality control.
I don't mind higher prices because of lower print runs, I don't mind not so perfect components as these would increase the price aswell, but I do mind obvious errors which should have been eliminated by any proof reading process, which deserves to be told one.
And this is not a matter of funds, they could give the playing pieces their girlfriend, wife or hardcore grognard and they would spot these blatant errors on the map immediately.
So thumbs up for the game, but there is no denying that the quality control did not work properly... shake
And what do you do if you buy a car and everthig is in place but the paintjob is sloppy? You would insist to get what you paid for, an error free car...
 
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If all we're talking about (now) is the typos, I agree that those errors are unfortunate, annoying, and avoidable. I actually started a thread about this game called "Typos" in which I expressed my disappointment about the physical production errors. I also agree that they reflect poorly on GMT's quality control (which IS to some degree a question of resources available).

I don't fully understand GMT's production process or where along the line the mistake occurred. Jason has said that he saw a copy of the map at one point which did NOT have errors, then when he saw the final map it DID have errors.

I agree that it seems a shame that in this day and age that the designers were for whatever reason unable to review the final map electronically before it went to be printed, and that it seems like GMT should be able to do what (for example) the Fantasy Flight guys do, which is send a set of electronic files to the printer with all the game components on them. It may be that GMT doesn't have the resources or the graphic design skill in-house to do that.

But I don't think attacks on the moral fiber of GMT employees (i.e. they should be ashamed for releasing such a game) are warranted. The economics of the industry are what they are, and nobody is getting rich off of sending out copies of Wilderness War. We all hope they will do a better job next time, but mistakes happen. Someone misspelled "Chile", they didn't shoot a 78-year old man in the face with buckshot.

On a separate topic--Travis, if you're interested in finding introductory wargames which DO have a high component quality, I'd recommend going to www.simmonsgames.com and buying Bonaparte at Marengo and possibly Friedrich.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Well, depends how I obtained the car

 
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Thank you Steve for the recommendation. These have been on my radar also.
 
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David Wilson
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Travis said:

"Step back, take a look at your attachments and think for a second, instead of spitting out a third grade response to a serious issue."


THUS SAITH THE PREACHER:

Obviously you came in here attempting to pick a fight and so you reply in an insulting manner. In regards to SERIOUS issue, I don't think it is a serious issue at all because the game is GREAT. In fact it is wonderful. You wouldn't know that because you refuse to take the time to do anything except crticize that which you have yet to see.

Travis continued:

"What I am saying is that I am attempting to answer the chicken and the egg question of which comes first: the poor components or the poor sales."


THUS ASKETH THE PREACHER:

What poor sales? Copies of Twilight Struggle are flying out of Hanford, California. It is selling well at game conventions. You have not seen the sales records or reports, so once again you speak of that you know not.


Travis ranted on:

"I say it's the poor components because I refuse to pay alot for something and get very little in return. If the components were better (not just pieces, but at least proofreading), many people who play predominantly Euros would switch over quite a bit and buy games like this. But they aren't going to start on a game that goes for twice as much as many other great games, has blatant typos, and offers very little in the way of durability."



THUS SAITH THE PREACHER:

I wonder if you proofread the above paragraph. Can you spot the spelling error. I wonder. You're ranting now. Do you not recall seeing errors in Euro games? Have you never seen a poor English translation of rules? Errors happen, and these are indeed quite embarrassing. I've even given GMT some grief over them. However, they do not detract from a great game, but your PREJUDICE will keep you from finding out.

Travis continued to demonstrate his ignorance:

"Or are you saying games like this don't sell well because of their theme which only appeals to wargamers? Most Euros are very light on theme. Who gives a crap about creating kingdoms in Mesopotamia? I care very little, but a game like Tigris and Euphrates seems to sell well with great components at a decent price for what you receive. And again, we are not talking about a wargame with a 50 page rule book trying to obtain a simulation feel. I expect a game as detailed as that to have some issues and develop over time (I would expect them to spell the countries of the world correctly, but whatever)."


THUS SPEAKETH THE PREACHER:

I've played many wargames, especially from GMT. I have yet to see a fifty page rulebook. Twilight Struggle has nine pages of rules. The rulebook is slightly longer as it offers some perspective and an example of play. It is true that there are some MONSTER-SIZED games out there, but Twilight Struggle should not be lumped in with "World at War" or "Advanced Third Reich." It is unfair and misleading for you to do so.

Travis kept on pecking at his keyboard

Also, I don't think making a game like this is any more tortuous than the production of a medium to heavyweight Euro game, which goes through years of development and playtesting, or sometimes multiple print runs (look at Britannia by Fantasy Flight...components weren't up to snuff, sent it back....this is the type of business model that should be emulated). Yes, many Euros are not perfect, but a extremely small portion need errata or a sharpie taken to the flimsy cardboard, as someone else has suggested, and very few cost this asking price.

THUS SAITH THE PREACHER:

You must not remember Warcraft: The boardgame. Great mechanics and interesting pieces. However, poorly playtested. Several races had SUPERPOWERS which made them unbeatable. Unforgiveable for a game to be released with such obvious and quickly discovered flaws.

Twilight Struggle had SPELLING errors, not mechanical flaws or balance problems.

TRAVIS continued his confused discussion:

The gameplay must be great. It is ranked very highly. But if I said that gameplay was all I was after, I would be lying to myself."

THUS SAYS THE PREACHER:

The gameplay IS GREAT! I share to a very small degree your frustration with the spelling errors. With the exception of the placement of U.S. influence, there is no major errata affecting the game. You are simply mistaken if you believe otherwise.

Travis thought he would quote some experts:

"And it's not just the components I am talking about. It is the overall value of the game that is important. This was brought up by Tom Vasel and Joe Steadman on The Dice Tower about what is changing about games in recent years. No longer is the old Avalon Hill style going to work. People are starting to demand more substance and value from the games they buy, there is alot of competition now and games are getting bigger and better. Are the game companies that are still relying on this business strategy expecting little sales or settling for them and taking advantage of people like you? People like me think about it for a second and realize that they are tired of canned excuses. I would like to meet the Mom and Pop that are "struggling" to keep this company alive against the evil Walmart of Euros."

THUS SAITH THE PREACHER:

I don't see an evil Walmart of Euros. I believe that there is room on my gaming shelf for games from both sides of the Atlantic. I don't care for "Puerto Rico" and joke about it being a failure as a game, but I respect folks right to play it. Oh, and I played it before insulting it, about five times. I don't see the appeal. At least I tried it before going online and trying to start a flame war of Euro vs. Wargamers.

While I respect Joe Steadman, I have never read a review by Tom Vassel that didn't offer some sort of glowing statements, even when desribing the worse games. Their opinion about the quality of games might have some relevance in a discussion of errata, but you've managed to walk way off-topic (Official Errata from the Designers) and started your own topic (I hate GMT's games or I'm prejeudice against American published games?)


Travis said:

"I just find it irresponsible. If I had bought this game not knowing about the geek and saw what I received for my money, I would be really ticked off."


Thus asketh the Preacher:

You would be ticked off because you bought a great game with some spelling errors? A game with a lot of replay value? A game with a really clever design and nearly infinite variants? It sounds to me that you have unfair expectations.



Travis just kept on typing:

"Why people defend the fact that they got taken to the cleaners is really eerie to me. I would be asking for a replacement board and cards, and a downloadable updated rule set."


Thus Laughs the preacher:

GMT always updates their rules and they will be downloadable. The errors are embarrasing, but not such that the game cannot be easily played and enjoyed. Get a Sharpie and CHANGE the word Chili to Chile if it will make you feel better. Stop annoying people who are having a great time with a great game.

Travis decided to play psychologist:

I think it is the same mentality of those people who have corvettes in their front yard with no wheels on them, or those people who insist their $200 copy of Reef Encounter is superior to the new $40 version. It just gets harder and harder to explain. I would really like to buy some of GMTs games, but I am on "try first buy later" policy. I am not alone here, and this is what makes their game releases risky, if you ask me."

THUS SAITH THE PREACHER:

You say you are not alone here, but I think you are. I think you need to start a thread somewhere about Euros vs. non-Euros, but this particular forum isn't the place for your ranting. You may have some valid points, and you are most cetainly entitle to your opinion, but it doesn't belong HERE!

You want to talk about your policy fine. I encourage you to TRY the game before you buy it. Absolutely. In fact, I think everyone should normally do so. If you aren't willing to try the game why not stop whining about problems you haven't ever seen.

TRAVIS SAID:

I know there is a paradigm that exists with many wargamers and eurogamers, because they have a collector-like emotional attachment to certain ideas, and I'm not going to change many minds. But I thought it would be good for a typical eurogamer to put this out there for discussion.


THUS REPLIETH THE PREACHER:

You thought wrong. It might make for a good discussion, but you came in here and picked a fight. This discussion is OFF TOPIC and UNWANTED!

THUS SAYS TRAVIS:

"I say it's the poor components because I refuse to pay alot for something and get very little in return. If the components were better (not just pieces, but at least proofreading), many people who play predominantly Euros would switch over quite a bit and buy games like this. But they aren't going to start on a game that goes for twice as much as many other great games, has blatant typos, and offers very little in the way of durability."


THUS RESPONDETH THE PREACHER WITH A LITTLE FIRE:

You won't switch over, Travis. Even if a game is GREAT. We don't have the little plastic toys that you like so much. What we have is a great game that you won't experience because of a few typos. Durability.. that remains to be seen, doesn't it?

If all Euro players are like you, judging a game without SEEING or PLAYING it, then I don't want to know such stuck up hypocrites. However, most Euro players I know will at least try a game before condemning it.

My father had a great saying about people who talked about things without knowing much about them. He would say "He's heard the big boys talking." Do you act like you know all about a movie you have never seen? A book you haven't read? Based solely on reviews? My, how close-minded can you be?


David "the preacher" Wilson

"There is none so blind as he who will not see." Ray Stevens

"The advice of friends must be received with a judicious reserve; we must not give ourselves up to it and follow it blindly, whether right or wrong." - Pierre Charron

"A definite purpose, like blinders on a horse, inevitably narrows its possessor's point of view." Robert Frost

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