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Twilight Struggle» Forums » Rules

Subject: Official Errata from the Designers rss

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Travis Bridges
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Wow. It looks like everyone else took my point, thought about it, and wrote a thoughtful reply. Although they disagreed with it, I think they can see where I am coming from, except for you.

You may call it picking a fight, I call it picking a discussion. I'm not saying playing the game is not wonderful, and I never said I would not try the game. I have seen the game with my own eyes and wondered where the $60 of value came in. That is all. Your rants about closemindedness don't work here. That is the reason we come to the geek is to get info before we spend money on a game. Save this closedminded crap for those who rate a game before it is even released yet. I'm sorry you felt I invaded your personal space, if you had any here to defend, which you don't. People like me say "Twilight Struggle looks interesting. Let's go on BGG and get some information." When they see a forum thread like this, they form an opinion, most not a positive one. You have me, who doesn't feel bad making their opinions known to the drones who accept anything that they can be spoon-fed.

I would definitely play the game, hopefully remembering all the fixes. I just wouldn't buy it, and wondered why not only people were ok with a $60 game of cardboard that had typos and gameplay errors in multiple places, but why they would vigorously defend the company who sold it to them. You must own stock. It would be valuable since the game is "flying off the shelf" as you say, although the rhetoric of recent wargame companies would say otherwise. You seem to be fine with paying this much money for gameplay alone. I am not. There are plenty of great games with amazing gameplay that offer value for my dollar, in so much as the fact that they spent time making a game that is usually, but not always, nearly flawless and appreciated beforehand the fact that I bought one. I am not going to pay $60 for a meal at Wendy's, but I will at a Japanese restaurant. You are saying "why not?" They both fulfill your appetite. I can't agree with that logic. But it is ok....you stick to your $60 Wendy burgers. I like Wendy's. They have some good stuff for what you pay for it. If they started charging $60 though, I would tell them to take a hike.

There are plenty of bad games with great components for your value. There are also plenty of great games with lousy components for your value. Neither of these types of games interest me. The first because I care about gameplay, and the second because I will not support a company that didn't care what they were manufacturing as long as people will pay extravagantly for it. If you haven't figured it out, I am not one of those of people.

When I speak of Eurogames, I mean universally, as most everybody does, games that are of the Euro type. Don't make this an argument about Americanism. Save that for yelling at your 6 o'clock news. Z-man and Uberplay make good games with error free rules and offer gameplay and value for the amount that you pay, which for the most part would be half of what a wargame company would charge for the same thing. You know, because it was so *hard* producing the game. Boo-hoo. Yeah, uhhuh, 9 page rules. Somebody missed the boat. Others have agreed with me.

You are right. I have unfair expectations. Other game companies have given me these. Most Euro-type games offer so much. When I open them and play them, I say "Wow! What a great game! This was only $30?!" When I see the latest wargame, I say "This is a great game, but this cost how much?!"

I'm sure I have errors in my posts. I'm not selling my posts to you for $60, but you felt so interested in it as to write a long, inane reply. That's sounds like value to me. You got to verbally assault me for free. Such a deal. I got to assault ideas and concepts, and challenge people's predilection. Who got the better deal?

Oh and P.S. Don't spout off quotes from marginally famous people. Leave this to the Berkeley-roaming hippie-elitist types. I don't remember things that aren't memorable. And I'm certainly not going to look up quotes from the marginally famous on Google to make my point. It's pretentious and unnecessary. (if you need the definition to some of the words I used, try dictionary.com, you will find your picture underneath two of the words in that last sentence)
 
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David Wilson
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Carsoin
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1. You discussion has left the topic of erratta... why not start a new thread?

2. Your last post was downright insulting and demeaning. I'll quote who I please.


David "the preacher" Wilson

"Good manners will open doors that the best education cannot." Clarence Thomas

"Opinions founded on prejudice are always sustained with the greatest of violence" Frances Jaffrey

 
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Travis Bridges
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Clarence Thomas said that? How ironic. I think he meant to say "Good porn will open doors that the best education cannot." Before slapping his intern on the behind. Who is Francis Jaffrey? Is that your cousin? You must mean Francis Jeffrey. Which is also ironic. He failed at everything he tried to do as a youth and instigated a duel with another author over a review he wrote. Quotes without context are meaningless. If you don't know about the people you are quoting, you can't learn anything from their intentions.

My topic is dead in the center of errata. I picked this game because it is as close to a Euro-type game as a wargame company would ever make to point out the lack of similarities in production value which includes errata.

This will be my last post as somebody alerted me to something that I didn't want to consider, but must concede to as the most valuable of arguments. Wargamers lack logic, live in a world unto themselves and don't want what they do to be accessible to others. So that is what is causing the drastic loss in the wargaming population. You as a group are dying. I respect your world and would like to know about it, but things like this deny me logical access. To you, things like this make sense, while the rest of the world scratches their heads. There is a good world out here. Open yourself to it and attempt to understand an opposing point of view.
 
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John Margerum
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You know have to smile listen to this debate. At home I have a Puerto Rico player board that says the Mayor's privilege is to get one off the building price, a Power Grid board that has the wrong connection costs printing on it, an Age of Steam map with the wrong number printed on the city of Detroit, and a Alhambra that has the wrong rules of wall scoring in the rule book. The errors in Twilight Struggle are no worse than these (albeit more embarrassing) and actually affect game play less.
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Steve Hope
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I agree with everyone!



John, you're right that those errors are worse than the ones in Twilight Struggle.

Grant, you're right that your opinion is uninformed.

Travis, you're right that there is a good world out there.

David, you're right that Travis "discusses" things in an insulting manner. You're ALSO right that this thread has veered from "Known errata of Twilight Struggle" to "Frustrated gamers vent against/defend small game company's production problems".

There!

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Troy Adlington
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Guys just for some perpective. I have done work that included graphical content for magazines, publications, or release as CD format.

Sometimes you sign off on a version that is checked and cross checked and is fine. But somehow the actual producer uses an older copy of the file, or does some sort of screw up themselves that makes you look like a complete fool. It happens.

I too am annoyed by the typos, but I daresay the authors are even more annoyed. (As their name is attached)

I too balk at the cost, but if I like the game enough I will buy it. (and happily)

Travis hasn't played this game and therefore in a saner and more mellow mood I don't think it's worth anyone's time to debate with him and his ilk. (We know who you are!!)

oh and as a PS...As a Historian I do care about petty kingdoms in Mesopatamia, and so should you.....your countrymen (and mine) are dying their right now dude! And if anyone thinks that the history of a region doesn't affect the outcome of the present, well.....





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David Wilson
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1. The topic of this folder is "Official Errata from the Designers." Not Eurogames are better than Wargames.. (and no doubt some are better than some)

2. I never prefaced ANYTHING I said with "Thus Saith the Lord," nor do I think God has an opinion on this subject, except that we need to be civil with one another. To do so would have been disrespectful both to the reader AND to the Lord.

Rather, you will discover that I separated my comments from Travis' with a declaration that "I" was making a declaration and did not want it confused with Travis' statements.

3. I don't think anyone should attack Travis for his personal opinion. I don't know why he decide to insult wargamers in general, make references to hippie-types, and other insulting remarks. I think he makes a few good points, but I disagree with his opinion which is formed without playing the game. However, I seriously disagree that this discussion belongs here. I know that the insults and disrespectful remarks don't belong here.


4. Travis, you came in spoiling for a fight. Your comments went from an expression of an opinion to a specific attack on me, a general attack on wargamers, and an attack on people who use quotations as taglines. Attacking other users is NOT permitted on Boardgamegeek.

David "the preacher" Wilson

"Can you read my mind? Do you know what it is you do to me?" Lois Lane's thoughts as Superman flies her around.

"You know you can't win." - the penguin to Batman.

 
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David Wilson
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Joesox wrote:

This whole discussion has served to highlight some of the differences between that elite group of people who proudly name themselves ‘Wargamers like Abimelech’ and…well…...

I think if our friendly representative wargamer (who touts himself a preacher--how ironic is that?) were to design a game, he would purposely include errors in the game, thus rendering it unplayable by anybody but another battle worn wargamer who would be willing to plod through the 20 pages of rules in fine print and try to decipher if the quotes at the bottom of the pages really expound on the gameplay.



The Preacher replieth:

First, I never declared thus saith the Lord, that would be using the LORD's name in vain. It would be the ultimate in disrespect for Him. I don't tout myself a preacher, sir. I am a Southern Baptist Minister, pastoring for more than 20 years.

Second, what makes you say I am a wargamer. I play Euros... There is one Euro I hate, and that is Puerto Rico, but I have played it at least five times. I play TransAmerica, PowerGrid, Ticket to Ride, and a number of other Euro style games.

Third, I most certainly try to avoid mistakes such as those we see on the gameboard and example of play in Twilight Struggle. I think that such mistakes show a lack of organization and are a major embarrassment. However, I hate to see a good game get a bad reputation for some silly mistakes. If you don't want a game with such mistakes, don't buy this one. Since they are minor spelling errors, I am willing to overlook them because I've played the game about five times and had a great time every single time.

This discussion has degraded to an attack on wargamers, and that's not really fair either, in my opinion.

David "the preacher" Wilson










“This type sort of thing will not ever gain any sort of broad appeal, and quite frankly, we purists prefer it that way.”


 
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Daniel Karp
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100 geekgold for OverText, and all I got was this stupid sentence.
This thread is official errata from the designers. Apparently the offical errata has now been posted (if you are a designer, please correct me if I am wrong about that). Now it has turned into something of a flame war, and, as the Forum guidelines indicate, flame wars get locked.
 
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