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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Giant's sweep vs multiple targets rss

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Chris Jones
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So tonight my group and I found myself in a situation:

I have a master giant sweep. Does say... 5 damage and has 1 surge to apply stun. I unfortunately do not have the card in front of me, but We couldn't decide upon the order of operations.

There are Four heroes being hit. Two of the heroes had abilities/armor that allowed them to "cancel" or cause me to "expend" the surge the surge to hit.

If one of these two heroes resolve their defense first, thus either canceling or causing me to expend the surge, does that mean the two other characters would be effects by the surge?

What I mean is, the sweep is specifically a single attack roll vs the 4 heroes; not targeting one specifically. Does something that 1 hero does effect that surge usage to the other heroes?

Thanks!

-cj

 
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Skolo
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I think we should play little bit of RPG here.
Imagine sweeping Giant. His club goes from right to left hitting one hero after the other. If the first one has ability or armor to stop the hit - would the rest of the characters be affected - no.

but, from rules of play maybe it should be wise, with the sweep, to say that every hero is affected, than if any hero posses some ability to stop "cancel" the attack - its for him only.

let us wait for some good answer here
 
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Robin REEVE
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As each targeted hero must roll his own dice, I would say that each hero cares for himself and cannot "lend" any personal protection to the other heroes, no more than he rolls his dice for someone else.
 
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This has already been asked with "flail" and "heavy cloak". I think the answer was that the heavy negate a surge before it is spend and negate it for all other affected players. According this interpretation, it's the same case for sweep, if you roll 2 surge, the cloak negate one, and the OL still haves one surge to spend (like stun every heroes). If he rolled a single surge, then he will have no surge to spend if heavy cloak is used.

But the word in the heavy cloak item is maybe the answer : cancel 1 surge on an attack that targets you. Swamp do not target you, it affects you. So maybe you cannot use the heavy cloak against such attack.

-> Finaly i don't what is the rigth answer ^^
 
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Robin REEVE
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Note that Sweep does not target one figure, but all heroes figures are affected by it.

EDIT : corrected after next post's precision.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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Robin wrote:
Note that Sweep does not target one figure, but all heroes affected by it.


All figures even, so monsters will take a hit too if in the area.
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Justin B
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Sweep does not target anything, it merely affects all targets within attack range, so Heavy Cloak may not be used to cancel a surge from a sweeping giant. Unseen is also ineffective.

A knight also may not tank two hits by using Defend. Sweep is a pretty powerful ability.
 
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Mercuric wrote:
Sweep does not target anything, it merely affects all targets within attack range, so Heavy Cloak may not be used to cancel a surge from a sweeping giant. Unseen is also ineffective.

A knight also may not tank two hits by using Defend. Sweep is a pretty powerful ability.


I agree with this. Sweep do not target but affect everything beneath 2 squares. So no heavy cloak and no Defend.
For exemple, heavy cloak and Defend work against Flail cause Flail targets 2 separate heroes. in this case heavy cloak negate a surge on the attack and so both heroes will benefit the ability.
 
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Andy Mills
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skolo wrote:
I think we should play little bit of RPG here.
Imagine sweeping Giant. His club goes from right to left hitting one hero after the other. If the first one has ability or armor to stop the hit - would the rest of the characters be affected - no.

but, from rules of play maybe it should be wise, with the sweep, to say that every hero is affected, than if any hero posses some ability to stop "cancel" the attack - its for him only.

let us wait for some good answer here


I appreciate what you're trying to do here, but using an argument based on thematic elements to resolve a mechanical rules question usually leads to bad or imprecise rulings.
 
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Chris Jones
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manydills wrote:
skolo wrote:
I think we should play little bit of RPG here.
Imagine sweeping Giant. His club goes from right to left hitting one hero after the other. If the first one has ability or armor to stop the hit - would the rest of the characters be affected - no.

but, from rules of play maybe it should be wise, with the sweep, to say that every hero is affected, than if any hero posses some ability to stop "cancel" the attack - its for him only.

let us wait for some good answer here


I appreciate what you're trying to do here, but using an argument based on thematic elements to resolve a mechanical rules question usually leads to bad or imprecise rulings.


I agree with you as well. And really, if we consider the thematic, how is it that the heroes stop the hits for everybody? The two surge reducing armor/abilities in question are "unseen" and "heavy cloak" So being unseen wouldn't stop a hit from hitting everybody, the thief would like duck out of the way or something. And I just assume the heavy cloak helps to take the brunt of the damage to that single hero, but wouldn't stop the entire attack (that's why they take damage still, just not stunned).

Thank you all for the clarification. My hero players are going to disappointed. We argued about this for like 20 minutes. I originally was taking the stance that the 2 heroes with the abilities could individually use unseen/heavy cloak to surpass/negate the surge, but now it seems it doesn't apply at all. Much appreciated!

-cj
 
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Chris Jones
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So none of my players support these facts of effect vs target. One of them is citing this regarding how an ability, with reach is, defines effected creates as "targets"

Counting SPACES
Some abilities require players to count the spaces from a figure to the
target of the ability. When counting spaces for attacks and abilities, players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces (see “Terrain” on page 18). The player just needs to verify that his target is in range for the ability to reach the target. If an ability affects figures within a specified number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted. However, when counting spaces for an ability, players cannot count spaces through a door because the spaces are not considered adjacent.

The definition of reach: The Reach keyword allows the figure to use a Melee attack to target a figure up to two spaces away, rather than only adjacent spaces. The target still needs to be in line of sight.

definition of sweep: Perform an attack. This attack affects each figure within range of this monster's attack. Each figure rolls defense dice separately.

does this mean that sweep would work without reach then?
 
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E.M. Proc
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cieje wrote:
So none of my players support these facts of effect vs target. One of them is citing this regarding how an ability, with reach is, defines effected creates as "targets"

Counting SPACES
Some abilities require players to count the spaces from a figure to the
target of the ability. When counting spaces for attacks and abilities, players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces (see “Terrain” on page 18). The player just needs to verify that his target is in range for the ability to reach the target. If an ability affects figures within a specified number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted. However, when counting spaces for an ability, players cannot count spaces through a door because the spaces are not considered adjacent.

The definition of reach: The Reach keyword allows the figure to use a Melee attack to target a figure up to two spaces away, rather than only adjacent spaces. The target still needs to be in line of sight.

definition of sweep: Perform an attack. This attack affects each figure within range of this monster's attack. Each figure rolls defense dice separately.

does this mean that sweep would work without reach then?


There is no target...

If you look at the language on Firebreath, it says that all figures on the path are affected by the attack, which targets one hero... As noted in multiple places on this board, a hero affected by firebreath can't use a cloak to kill a surge on the attack, he's simply affected by the attack as "secondary"...

In the same sense, all figures within range of the master giant are affected by the sweep, but none of them are targeted... There isn't a target... All figures are "secondary"...

So some examples of defensive cans/can'ts against sweep:
(-) Heavy Cloak - not usable since you have to be "targeted"
(-) Spiritspeaker's Stoneskin - usable since it says "attacked" (not "targeted")
(-) Valor (Champion's Glory of Battle) - useable since it says "before rolling"
(-) Spiritspeaker's Cloud of Mist - not usable since you have to be "targeted"
(-) Tomble's ability - usable since it says "attacked" (not "targeted")
(-) Thief's Unseen - not usable since you have to be "targeted"
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Robin REEVE
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Dam the Man wrote:
Robin wrote:
Note that Sweep does not target one figure, but all heroes affected by it.


All figures even, so monsters will take a hit too if in the area.
You are right: the text speaks of "figures".thumbsup
 
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Spambo Spamboton
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I don't think there is a significant difference between "affect" and "target" in this scenario. Page 13 of the rulebook, under "Counting Spaces" says,

"Some abilities require players to count the spaces from a figure to the target of the ability. When counting spaces for attacks and abilities, players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces (see “Terrain” on page 18). The player just needs to verify that his target is in range for the ability to reach the target. If an ability affects figures within a specified
number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted.
However, when counting spaces for an ability, players cannot count spaces
through a door because the spaces are not considered adjacent"

Each hero within the range is targeted because Sweep is an ability that requires players to count spaces in order to determine if it hits. Per this criterion, the player is targeted, as stated above.
 
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E.M. Proc
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spambo wrote:
I don't think there is a significant difference between "affect" and "target" in this scenario. Page 13 of the rulebook, under "Counting Spaces" says,

"Some abilities require players to count the spaces from a figure to the target of the ability. When counting spaces for attacks and abilities, players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces (see “Terrain” on page 18). The player just needs to verify that his target is in range for the ability to reach the target. If an ability affects figures within a specified
number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted.
However, when counting spaces for an ability, players cannot count spaces
through a door because the spaces are not considered adjacent"

Each hero within the range is targeted because Sweep is an ability that requires players to count spaces in order to determine if it hits. Per this criterion, the player is targeted, as stated above.


There is a a very significant difference between "affect" and "target"...

1) You're quoting language about an ability, not about an attack...
2) You have to "count spaces" for firebreath, too, but that doesn't target secondary heroes, just affects them...
3) Also, a monster can't target a fellow monster with an attack... And since all figures are affected by the sweep, the language has to stick with affected...
 
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Chris Jones
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I asked FFG my question:


Your interpretation is exactly correct for several reasons.

Consider not just the giant's Sweep ability but the shadow dragon's Fire Breath. Say, for example, that the Thief with Unseen and the Heavy Cloak was not the target but was instead affected by the attack. If the Heavy Cloak canceled a surge, then what would happen if spending the surge on Fire Breath was the only surge the overlord had on the roll? Would that then cancel the Fire Breath? But then, of course, the Thief wouldn't be attacked anymore, so there wouldn't be the ability to cancel the surge... you get the idea.

The key difference is in "targets" versus "affects." Since "Sweep" is an attack that "affects" each hero in range, and both the Heavy Cloak and Unseen require the hero to be a "target," they could not be used.
As far as triggering Heavy Cloak and Unseen:
Heavy Cloak has to be triggered during 2. Roll Dice of Combat. The Thief can't wait to see what the overlord might trigger before he uses the item.

Unseen has to be exhausted during the Thief's turn and is in effect until the card refreshers (start of the Thief's next turn).

Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
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Carsten Summer
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Sorry for the old thread.

"Sweep = Perform an attack. This attack affects each figure within two spaces and line of sight of this monster.".

I understand the clarification here about all the "affected" figures.

But isn't there at least 1 "target" ???
The ability says "Perform an attack". In my opinion that means i have choose a target and then attack it. And THEN this attack also affects each figure within two spaces and line of sight of this monster.

And a second question: is the giant/troll "affected" by his own attack (has LOS and is within 2 spaces) and has to roll defense dice, too ?

 
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Paul Smithe
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There is no target- all figures are just affected. The "perform an attack" instruction is there to say that you roll your attack dice, spend surges, etc. The "declare target" step is modified by the special ability- instead of targeting 1 figure within 2 spaces, this attack just affects all figures in range. I've asked FFG about affecting the giant himself- I don't think that's the intention.

EDIT: Got a reply from FFG.
Quote:
Yes, a figure is within line of sight of itself. The giant’s Sweep should read, “Perform an attack. This attack affects each other figure within 2 spaces and line of sight of this monster. Each figure rolls defense dice separately.”

Nathan and I discussed it and we determined that “Break the Rune” should read, “[Action] Perform an attack with a Rune weapon. This attack ignores range and targets each other figure within…"

These corrections will be reflected in the next errata.
 
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Jee Fu
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zaltyre wrote:
There is no target- all figures are just affected. The "perform an attack" instruction is there to say that you roll your attack dice, spend surges, etc. The "declare target" step is modified by the special ability- instead of targeting 1 figure within 2 spaces, this attack just affects all figures in range. I've asked FFG about affecting the giant himself- I don't think that's the intention.

EDIT: Got a reply from FFG.
Quote:
Yes, a figure is within line of sight of itself. The giant’s Sweep should read, “Perform an attack. This attack affects each other figure within 2 spaces and line of sight of this monster. Each figure rolls defense dice separately.”

Nathan and I discussed it and we determined that “Break the Rune” should read, “[Action] Perform an attack with a Rune weapon. This attack ignores range and targets each other figure within…"

These corrections will be reflected in the next errata.

Does this mean that the Giant's Stun ability can't be used in conjunction with Sweep? It says:

"If this attack deals at least 1H (after the defense roll), the target is Stunned."

If Sweep doesn't target, then according to this you can't stack Stun onto it. Which is lame, and stupid.

- Jee
 
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Paul Smithe
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It is my opinion that Stun can be used, and that this is a case of careless ability wording by FFG.

Reasoning: When you apply "blast" to an attack, that attack affects all figures adjacent to the target space- wounds, conditions, and all. It's clearly not just for the target space.

Literally in the middle of writing this post, I had an idea that may be the correct answer. Plenty of abilities (such as OL cards like Tripwire) "target" heroes without even involving attacks- in this sense, "target" just means the hero the ability is directed against. (That phrasing has been used in numerous FFG rulings.)

Perhaps "target" in the stun ability refers to a figure being affected by the attack- that is, any figure who is the, let's say "recipient" of the attack, but not necessarily in the target space. It's really unfortunate wording because "target" has a very specific definition in the context of attacks- it's precisely a figure occupying the target space.

 
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Sean Kolodji
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I think your problem was answered in the FAQ
Quote:
Q: If a condition is applied to an attack that uses Blast, do all figures affected
by the attack suffer the condition?
A: Yes, but each figure affected by the attack still needs to be dealt at least
1 ¡ (after its own defense roll) in order to suffer the condition.


According to this conditions can be applied to targeted and affected figures as long as long as 1 damage has been dealt.
 
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Paul Smithe
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I got a response from FFG:

Quote:

Rules Question:
The Skirmisher's "Carve a Path" (and some other abilities like the Giant's "Sweep" are attacks which "affect all spaces..." Do these attacks target any spaces, or are all spaces merely "affected" by the attack? (Does this mean the Giant can't stun with "Sweep," or is the use of "target" in the surge ability nonspecific?) Thanks!


A: Those attacks remain consistent with the use of “target” versus “affect,” meaning that there is no target in an attack that simply affects figures. We’ve further discussed that any surge for conditions (Surge: Stun, Surge: Poison, etc.) used during such an attack should extend to those affected by an attack and not just the target. So in your example, though a Giant does not have a target when it sweeps, it may still Stun affected figures if it applies Stun to the attack.

Thanks for playing!
Kara Centell-Dunk
Creative Content Developer
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