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Subject: Rules differences, first glance; Piñata vs Balloon Cup rss

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Tomello Visello
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Card Values
Piñata: suits of 1-7, 1-6, 1-5, 1-4, 1-3, with duplicates except highest number
Balloon Cup: all suits 1-13, with selected gaps for colors with fewer cards. no duplicates


Start Tiles
Piñata: either side up
Balloon Cup: alternating low/high


play opponent's side
Piñata: Player must complete own side first. Variant allows opponent side any time as "more interactive"
Balloon Cup: may play opponent side any time.


Wild Cards
Piñata:9 cards valued 1-5, with duplicates except 5. no assigned color
Balloon Cup: no wild cards


Ties
Piñata: may not play a final card that results in equal sides
Balloon Cup: player of final card wins if both sides equal


3 for 1 cube trade
Piñata: no mention
Balloon Cup: 3 cubes of a Trophy color already resolved may substitute in claiming a new color


cascade Trophy claiming
Piñata: no mention.
Balloon Cup: non-claiming player allowed to claim one Trophy after claiming player has completed (relates to allowing 3 for 1 substitutition)



(source: printed rules from retail copy of Piñata, FLGS purchase.)


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¡dn ʇǝƃ ʇ,uɐɔ ı puɐ uǝllɐɟ ǝʌ,ı
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Does Piñata have the same "starting" issue as Balloon Cup, where too many grey cubes on a round can freeze the game?
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Tomello Visello
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MABBY wrote:
Does Piñata have the same "starting" issue as Balloon Cup, where too many grey cubes on a round can freeze the game?
Would the presence of the Wild cards resolve the underlying issue behind that problem ?

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P E C
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Start Tiles
Piñata: either side up
What's mean?
 
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Tomello Visello
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agf21980 wrote:
Start Tiles
Piñata: either side up
What's mean?
The reversible tiles where the cubes are placed.



and indicate whether high sum or low sum will win the contest. Piñata rules expressly say, "At the beginning of the game it does not matter which sides are face up"

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Kevin B. Smith
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Wow. There are a lot more changes than I had expected. The different card values would make a difference, and the wild cards would be huge.

I'm tempted to say the BGG entries should be split.
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Tomello Visello
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peakhope wrote:
Wow. There are a lot more changes than I had expected. The different card values would make a difference, and the wild cards would be huge.

I'm tempted to say the BGG entries should be split.
Merits of such were already being debated before the opening information here was presented.

Balloon Cup and Pinata - separate entries please

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Kevin B. Smith
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TVis wrote:
peakhope wrote:
Wow. There are a lot more changes than I had expected. The different card values would make a difference, and the wild cards would be huge.

I'm tempted to say the BGG entries should be split.
Merits of such were already being debated before the opening information here was presented.

Balloon Cup and Pinata - separate entries please

Before reading the rules changes summary above, I was under the impression that Pinata was substantially the same, and thus should be in the same game entry. The changes are more dramatic than I had expected, so I have changed my mind. It makes a lot more sense to have the discussion *after* knowing what is in the new edition rather than based on speculation *before*.
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Josh Chen
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Sounds like a different game! I think it should be a separate entry.
You good sir, have a GG.
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Brad McKenzie
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TVis wrote:
MABBY wrote:
Does Piñata have the same "starting" issue as Balloon Cup, where too many grey cubes on a round can freeze the game?
Would the presence of the Wild cards resolve the underlying issue behind that problem ?



Sounds like it would...
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David Short
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peakhope wrote:
Wow. There are a lot more changes than I had expected. The different card values would make a difference, and the wild cards would be huge.

I'm tempted to say the BGG entries should be split.

Fully agree. I initially assumed this was merely a retheming of Balloon Cup. Alas, after reading this summary, Pinata is entirely a different game. And from the sound of it, a game I wouldn't enjoy, despite being similar to my beloved Balloon Cup.

Sad news. I was hoping to share the Balloon Cup goodness with more people. Very unfortunate.
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Stefano Castelli
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porkchop_tw wrote:
Sounds like a different game! I think it should be a separate entry.
You good sir, have a GG.


Yep, should be a different entry indeed.
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Kevin B. Smith
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dshortdesign wrote:
Alas, after reading this summary, Pinata is entirely a different game. And from the sound of it, a game I wouldn't enjoy, despite being similar to my beloved Balloon Cup.

Sad news. I was hoping to share the Balloon Cup goodness with more people. Very unfortunate.

I am curious why you feel that way. For me, the loss of the hot air balloon theme is the saddest part. The rule changes themselves sound interesting. They might address the "lockup" issue. I would be interested to try the new game to see whether I enjoy it more or less, but nothing in the new rules look inherently worse to me. What bothers you about them?
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David Short
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peakhope wrote:
dshortdesign wrote:
Alas, after reading this summary, Pinata is entirely a different game. And from the sound of it, a game I wouldn't enjoy, despite being similar to my beloved Balloon Cup.

Sad news. I was hoping to share the Balloon Cup goodness with more people. Very unfortunate.

I am curious why you feel that way. For me, the loss of the hot air balloon theme is the saddest part. The rule changes themselves sound interesting. They might address the "lockup" issue. I would be interested to try the new game to see whether I enjoy it more or less, but nothing in the new rules look inherently worse to me. What bothers you about them?

There are several items in the OP's summary that are red flags for me. Below are a few:

TVis wrote:
Card Values
Piñata: suits of 1-7, 1-6, 1-5, 1-4, 1-3, with duplicates except highest number
Balloon Cup: all suits 1-13, with selected gaps for colors with fewer cards. no duplicates

First, Pinata's card values now include duplicates. With the inclusion of duplicates I can no longer accurately deduce my chances of winning a tile. In Balloon Cup, if you need a Red 6 to win this tile and I hold the Red 6, I know I've got that tile won.

TVis wrote:
Wild Cards
Piñata:9 cards valued 1-5, with duplicates except 5. no assigned color
Balloon Cup: no wild cards

This issue is basically the same as above. With the inclusion of wild cards, Pinata greatly reduces my ability to anticipate my opponents moves and plan my attack. If you can play anywhere with certain wild cards, that completely ruins the game for me.

TVis wrote:
3 for 1 cube trade
Piñata: no mention
Balloon Cup: 3 cubes of a Trophy color already resolved may substitute in claiming a new color

This element of trading "trash" cubes to gain trophies in Balloon Cup is brilliant. Many times, I've conceded a color to my opponent with the explicit motive to create a "wild" cube for myself in order to grab a trophy and win the game.

Balloon Cup is a great game of timing and card counting. Pinata seems to diminish both of those strengths for me.
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Kevin B. Smith
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dshortdesign wrote:
Balloon Cup is a great game of timing and card counting. Pinata seems to diminish both of those strengths for me.

Thanks. Given your approach to the game, I can see why the changes would be unappealing. As a non-card-counter, my perspective is understandably different.
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David Dawson
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I don't really think those things are card counting, It's just some deduction that's part of the strategy in these games. I haven't played Balloon Cup or Pinata yet, but this mechanic is what makes games like Battle Line so awesome.

I may still check out Pinata, but I am a bit less interested in picking it up after seeing these differences. Besides, balloons are definitely the cooler theme.
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Scott A. Reed
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peakhope wrote:
I'm tempted to say the BGG entries should be split.


That's the path I'm now pursuing with the entries.
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Josh Chen
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With this revelation I am now glad that I didn't pick up Piñata. I enjoy the card counting in Battle Line and Lost Cities and wild cards are a turned off to me. Maybe the publisher wants this game to be more kid friendly with a more kid friendly theme? It is of course my own speculation.
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@spielfriek
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Piñata is closer to my original vision. Yes, it was absolutely designed to be a family/kid-friendly game.

Although it is heart-warming to hear the original referred to as "my beloved Balloon Cup.".
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Jon Ben
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TVis wrote:
Card Values
Piñata: suits of 1-7, 1-6, 1-5, 1-4, 1-3, with duplicates except highest number
Balloon Cup: all suits 1-13, with selected gaps for colors with fewer cards. no duplicates


So the suit that has the 1-3 range is just less important in deciding the victory? In Balloon Cup a 13 or 1 grey is as powerful as a 13 or 1 red, here it seems there is an inherent lopsidedness between the suits. Am I missing some other change in how a side is won in Pinata?

Furthermore, why is only the highest number more rare? Isn't the 1 in each suit equally as valuable (or more so given the above point)?
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Tomello Visello
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JonBen wrote:
Furthermore, why is only the highest number more rare? Isn't the 1 in each suit equally as valuable (or more so given the above point)?
There is a symmetry visible (whether or not it is meaningful) in the order in which the sealed cards are packed.

For instance: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

 
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Marcus Lau
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Does this game have the Beavis pikata piñata as a promo? I would so totally buy this if it does.
 
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Tomello Visello
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friedricetheman wrote:
Does this game have the Beavis pikata piñata as a promo? I would so totally buy this if it does.
I think you meant to post that in a different thread. This one is intended to focus on the rules.

 
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Scott Dye
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JonBen wrote:
TVis wrote:
Card Values
Piñata: suits of 1-7, 1-6, 1-5, 1-4, 1-3, with duplicates except highest number
Balloon Cup: all suits 1-13, with selected gaps for colors with fewer cards. no duplicates


So the suit that has the 1-3 range is just less important in deciding the victory? In Balloon Cup a 13 or 1 grey is as powerful as a 13 or 1 red, here it seems there is an inherent lopsidedness between the suits. Am I missing some other change in how a side is won in Pinata?

Furthermore, why is only the highest number more rare? Isn't the 1 in each suit equally as valuable (or more so given the above point)?


I'm not sure where you're getting that this means some suits are less important.

In Balloon Cup, the gray has 1,4,7,10,13 (5 numbers in the suit)
In Piñata, the gray (I assume) has 1,1,2,2,3 (5 numbers in the suit)

If you have a gray cube/candy, both players will have to play gray cards to win that tile. The fact the the high card isn't the same as another color is irrelevant, because you both are competing for a color that has a "high" of 3.

Then, you add the wild cards - 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5 - 9 additional cards that can play for the gray (all the way up to 5).

I do agree that wilds will likely play a greater factor than gray cards in controlling a gray candy on a tile, but both players have the same odds.

I'm realizing that the wilds are really offsetting the 3-for-1 cube trade. The cube trade was needed in Balloon Cup because you could easily get into situations where no one had cards to win gray cubes, but had a plethora of other colors. In Piñata, it seems like now you will have much more odds at having cards to win the same candy (only 5 gray cards in BC vs 14 gray+wilds in Piñata.

I do think this will be less of a number counting game, but for some that may be welcome. If you really want to count, though, you can also count the wilds that have been played. So it really just means it will be harder to count cards.
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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porkozone wrote:
I'm not sure where you're getting that this means some suits are less important.

In Balloon Cup, the gray has 1,4,7,10,13 (5 numbers in the suit)
In Piñata, the gray (I assume) has 1,1,2,2,3 (5 numbers in the suit)

If you have a gray cube/candy, both players will have to play gray cards to win that tile. The fact the the high card isn't the same as another color is irrelevant, because you both are competing for a color that has a "high" of 3.

Let's say there is a tile with a Red and a Gray. In the old game, the average value of available cards of the 2 colors were the same. Your Gray 13 was just as strong as your opponent's Red 13. Plus, since there are fewer gray cards, you are more likely to have another high red card than your opponent is to have another high gray card. The rarity of each Gray card gives each of them more power.

With Pinata, if I play the highest gray available, and you play the highest red available, then instead of us being tied, you are now ahead 7 to 3.

Mind you, I don't think these changes are bad. I'm open to the idea that Pinata might be a better game in several ways. But (it sure looks like) gray has gone from being the strongest suit to being the weakest.
 
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