A Touch of Evil: The Coast » General » Card backs darker than base game

Author: horfrost3
I just picked up a copy of The Coast and noticed the card backs are a lot darker than the base game - especially the Secret cards. They are A LOT darker, so it is very obvious that an elder has an expansion secret card or not. The only thing I can think of is to sleeve the cards (which I hate doing), but I'm not sure what size of sleeve fits the best. Has any one else run into this problem? What did you do?
Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:56 pm
Author: rcmoore4
Same problem here...not a big deal for most of the cards, but with the secrets it's particularly annoying. Still, I haven't bothered with sleeving (yet). You know they've got a secret from the coast but you still don't know if it is a good, evil, or neutral.

Sleeving would be a good solution, if only of the secret cards...I might give it a try as well.
Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:09 pm
Author: senorcoo
I hope FF is going to offer replacements.
Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:50 am
Author: horfrost3
I contacted FFP and this is the response I got:

QUOTE wrote:
Hello Joanna,

We understand your concern about color variation in card backs. As gamers, ourselves, this always bothered us when playing our favorite games and having cards not match. We've made it a priority with our manufacturer in China. However, we've come to realize that there are always color variations in printing that cannot be helped. The variation shown in your photos is within the range of variation that we get in the printing process. I'm sorry for the difference in tint that you're seeing. Card replacements would also have similar variations.

Thank you,
Chris Kemnow
Flying Frog Productions, LLC


I guess I'll just have to deal with the color variation or sleeve the cards. Does any one know what sleeve size fits FFP cards? If I do sleeve, I'll just do the Secret cards, since I really really really do not like sleeves. Oh well.
Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:50 pm
Author: iguano
What?? I'm looking at your photo and they're saying that the variation shown is within the range they get in the printing process?? I used to work for a printing company and they would fire someone if that was their opinion. The difference shown in your photo is not an acceptable variation by a reputable printing company. Yes, there are color variations in printing, but the differences should be so slight that an untrained eye would hardly notice.

For example, take a look at the backs of Magic the Gathering cards from various printings over the years and see if you can notice a difference in color. A trained inker from a printing company might, but you wouldn't.

This is too bad. I like FFG but this response from them is not cool.
Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:13 pm
Author: senorcoo
iguano wrote:
What?? I'm looking at your photo and they're saying that the variation shown is within the range they get in the printing process?? I used to work for a printing company and they would fire someone if that was their opinion.


Brian - I'm with you. The fact that they brush such a serious difference off so easily is disheartening.
Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:38 pm
Author: horfrost3
senorcoo wrote:
iguano wrote:
What?? I'm looking at your photo and they're saying that the variation shown is within the range they get in the printing process?? I used to work for a printing company and they would fire someone if that was their opinion.


Brian - I'm with you. The fact that they brush such a serious difference off so easily is disheartening.


I'm glad you guys think so, I was trying to be a "good sport" about it... but the expansion cards are basically dark grey and the base game cards are almost white. And it does seem pretty crazy that the company is accepting such a huge range of tone.

And you're right, MTG card backs are almost identical from printing to printing. And even Fantasy flight games reprinted cards from the base game of Mansions of Madness when they came out with their print on demand expansions because the card width wasn't the same as the base game and they wanted to make sure it wasn't obvious which cards were from the base vs expansion. Flying Frog is a smaller company then WotC and FFG, so maybe its a cost thing? Even so, it's still a big disappointment... I mean, as consumers we pay a lot for these games and it should be their duty as a game publisher make sure the components of their games are up to a certain level of quality and consistency, right?
Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:20 pm
Author: ninjadorg
Wow. I really love FFP games but that is truly shocking, and a shocking response. It literally looks like they ran out of ink but ran the prints anyway. shake
Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:38 pm
Author: Wulf Corbett
ninjadorg wrote:
It literally looks like they ran out of ink but ran the prints anyway.
Wrong way round - the new ones are darker. Mine are too - but nowhere near as big a difference as illustrated. Doesn't worry me in the slightest. "Oh, look, it's one of the new ones. I wonder what it is?" will be the maximum extent of my reaction. It's not as though all the new cards were radically different in content to any of the old ones. Even if anyone is anal enough to memorise the entire new set of cards, they still can't tell which one it is, or what it does, from the back.
Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:01 pm
Author: Wulf Corbett
iguano wrote:
What?? I'm looking at your photo and they're saying that the variation shown is within the range they get in the printing process??
That photo in no way at all reflects the difference in my cards. There is a difference, you can see it easily, but it's not anything like that obvious.
Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:03 pm
Author: Renwmn
They should have rejected the lot from the printer. If the printer gives them difficulties it is time to find a new printer. That isn't a slight variation in color.
Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:50 pm
Author: senorcoo
It would be like hiring someone to do your roof with shingles and they turn up and do it with sheets of aluminum. It's functional, but it isn't what you paid for.
Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:52 am
Author: M00NSYLVER
My Coast card backs are, sadly, darker. As others have mentioned, you really only notice it on the Secrets, where I will admit, it IS quite noticible.

I shuffle without looking, draw from the bottom of the deck, & make sure each Elder covers their secret(s) completely.

Problem solved. (For me anyway).

It was a minor quibble for me, but IN NO WAY a deal breaker. The rest of the components are the usual quality of other FFP games, & once I delt with this one issue the great content of The Coast MORE than outweighed the minor inconvenience required.
---MS

*EDIT* And yeah, the above photo DOES exagerate the differnace. Looks like too much glare on the "regular" Secrets. making them look MUCH lighter compaired to the darker Coast ones. shake
Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:57 am
Author: grahamj
It would be nice if Flying Frog made card sleeves with backings for their games, this way it wouldn't matter if the card backs were darker.
Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:06 am
Author: horfrost3
M00NSYLVER wrote:
My Coast card backs are, sadly, darker. As others have mentioned, you really only notice it on the Secrets, where I will admit, it IS quite noticible.

I shuffle without looking, draw from the bottom of the deck, & make sure each Elder covers their secret(s) completely.

Problem solved. (For me anyway).

It was a minor quibble for me, but IN NO WAY a deal breaker. The rest of the components are the usual quality of other FFP games, & once I delt with this one issue the great content of The Coast MORE than outweighed the minor inconvenience required.
---MS

*EDIT* And yeah, the above photo DOES exagerate the differnace. Looks like too much glare on the "regular" Secrets. making them look MUCH lighter compaired to the darker Coast ones. shake


I took the picture at a 45 degree angle to prevent a glare. And even if the secret cards would appear lighter from the light, both sets would be lighter. One wouldn't appear lighter and the other darker. The darker cards were actually under the light more directly than the lighter cards.

And I didn't say this was a deal breaker for me; I'm just frustrated I spent $43 on a game expansion and in addition to the cards being significantly darker than the base game (all decks, The Secrets were the most extreme) all of the chits were printed off centered and were also darker. I only mentioned the The Secret cards because it's important for the game that they are not distinguishable. I can live with the other components being too dark because they don't affect the game.

And also, I agree the Coast is an awesome expansion - so far I like it more than Something Wicked, but that also makes me more bummed that the print job wasn't done well. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't care as much.

That being said, I like your solution better than sleeving the cards, so I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the suggestion.
Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:11 am
Author: Phantasm

I don't yet own The Coast but, from the photo, that degree of color variation is absolutely not acceptable. That lack of QC would never be acceptable even at the small printing company where I used to work, and for FF to say otherwise is wrong.

If anyone from FF would like proof of this, they should walk into any supermarket. Rarely will any variation be found on the packaging of products we use everyday; Tide laundry detergent is always the same hue of orange, Barilla pasta is always the same shade of blue, etc. While it is easier to achieve color consistency with large, virtually endless runs of any packaging, it is still certainly not difficult for smaller 'stop and start' runs that FF's printing company would do for their game components.

What should FF do? Insist on less variation from their current printer or, if that isn't possible, go with a new company. In the meantime, they should replace the lighter cards if requested by owners of The Coast.



Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:35 am
Author: senorcoo
Phantasm wrote:

I don't yet own The Coast but, from the photo, that degree of color variation is absolutely not acceptable. That lack of QC would never be acceptable even at the small printing company where I used to work, and for FF to say otherwise is wrong.

If anyone from FF would like proof of this, they should walk into any supermarket. Rarely will any variation be found on the packaging of products we use everyday; Tide laundry detergent is always the same hue of orange, Barilla pasta is always the same shade of blue, etc. While it is easier to achieve color consistency with large, virtually endless runs of any packaging, it is still certainly not difficult for smaller 'stop and start' runs that FF's printing company would do for their game components.

What should FF do? Insist on less variation from their current printer or, if that isn't possible, go with a new company. In the meantime, they should replace the lighter cards if requested by owners of The Coast.





Perfectly said.
Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:47 am
Author: rcmoore4
I think that, though the color difference is obvious, the flash in the photo exacerbates the difference to the point where the older cards almost look white/bleached. I'm not making any excuses for FFP, but I think a photo in natural light might illustrate the difference more clearly (accurately?) I tried taking a photo myself with a flash and the image looks similar, though to the eye it isn't so profound.

I'll try to do this if I get the chance.
Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:00 am
Author: Toshach
horfrost3 wrote:
I contacted FFP and this is the response I got:

QUOTE wrote:
Hello Joanna,

We understand your concern about color variation in card backs. As gamers, ourselves, this always bothered us when playing our favorite games and having cards not match. We've made it a priority with our manufacturer in China. However, we've come to realize that there are always color variations in printing that cannot be helped. The variation shown in your photos is within the range of variation that we get in the printing process. I'm sorry for the difference in tint that you're seeing. Card replacements would also have similar variations.

Thank you,
Chris Kemnow
Flying Frog Productions, LLC


I guess I'll just have to deal with the color variation or sleeve the cards. Does any one know what sleeve size fits FFP cards? If I do sleeve, I'll just do the Secret cards, since I really really really do not like sleeves. Oh well.


Assuming the photo in the first post is a reasonably accurate reproduction of the two printings, then the complaint is justified and the response mystifying. I've been in publishing for 35 years, and I have never, NEVER, seen a reprint of a job that was as far off as those cards in the picture. I never worked with a printer who would dare to even show me results such as that, let alone expect me to accept it. To say that this is "...within the range of variation..." is laughable. A range of variation would be something to the tune of a few percent ink/color density--a barely noticeable difference when compared side-by-side.

I suggest you guys get yourself a new printer, and maybe a new production manager/print buyer while you are at it.
Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:07 am
Author: Wulf Corbett
Here's a pic of mine. No flash, but even so, I feel the contrast has been exaggerated by the camera. Nowhere near as extreme as the OP's pic.
Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:14 am
Author: iguano
Wulf Corbett wrote:
Here's a pic of mine. No flash, but even so, I feel the contrast has been exaggerated by the camera. Nowhere near as extreme as the OP's pic.


Not as extreme, but still wouldn't pass the scrutiny at a decent print shop. At the place I used to work, those would have been tossed out, inks remade and the run of those cards reprinted.

I wonder if FFP missed this in a proof copy they received (if they did that which they absolutely should have) and now are stuck with a very poorly calibrated print run. This is a shame, because I like their games and will now end up really hesitating before getting any expansions. Hopefully they rectify this some way.
Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:46 am
Author: Boromir_and_Kermit
Not acceptable.
Much like the board colour changes early on. Are their printing company screwing them over?
Disappointing.
Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:04 am
Author: senorcoo
I think that if you couldn't tell the difference in the small pic, then it would be easier to defend FF. Even with the tiny pic and my eyes, I can clearly tell the difference. It is something that would annoy me if they weren't sleeved. So are all of the card backs this dissimilar from the other sets?
Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:56 pm
Author: horfrost3
I took some more pictures of the cards, this time I went outside since the lighting is better and more accurate.

These were all taken outside. I had to put a cloth down on the table outside because I didn't want the cards to get dirty, that's why one pic has a tan background.







All of the cards in my Coast expansion were printed darker than the base game cards. The locations and events were more subtle, but the Secrets and Mystery cards were more extreme. Also the extra investigation tokens that come with the expansion were noticeably darker than the base game. I didn't feel the need to mention these earlier since they don't affect the game play in any way. Here are pics of those as well.

It looks like a shadow is over half of the investigation tokens, but there isn't. They are that much darker than the base games.





Here's a picture of the Mystery cards from the base game, Something Wicked, and the Coast. All have different hues, but The Coast's are significantly darker. The base game are the lighter brown cards, SW are greenish, and the Coast are dark brown.

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:28 pm
Author: horfrost3
rcmoore4 wrote:
I think that, though the color difference is obvious, the flash in the photo exacerbates the difference to the point where the older cards almost look white/bleached. I'm not making any excuses for FFP, but I think a photo in natural light might illustrate the difference more clearly (accurately?) I tried taking a photo myself with a flash and the image looks similar, though to the eye it isn't so profound.

I'll try to do this if I get the chance.


I uploaded pictures taken outside during the day in my last post before this one.

Also, for the record, I didn't use a flash. I tried a picture with the flash, but got too much glare. So instead, I used a table lamp above the cards and took the picture from a 45 degree angle to prevent glare. I agree the colors are off, but that's what happens with yellow indoor lighting. Both sets of cards are a little lighter from the lamp. The outdoor pictures I took are much more accurate.
Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:34 pm
Author: corkysru
I mean hell... the publishers of 7 wonders released a fix of the 3rd age cards that were printed just slightly differently. And that is a barely noticeable difference. Not a glaring difference like this.

I expect more from a company with such high quality components like FFP.
Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:43 pm
Author: rcmoore4
Yes, I think these later pics are more reflective of what it looks to the eye. And yes, it's still obvious which are the Coast cards.

In the past, there's been variation as well with ToE, but not this extreme. But it really only annoys me for the secrets...and then, it's mildly annoying for the secrets (as with the OP).

Did we ever get a suggestion on types of sleeves to use? Seems like a good suggestion, at least for the secrets.
Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:48 pm
Author: Myoman
Yes all my cards are darker too.
Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:51 pm
Author: corkysru
This game takes CCG sized(silver from FFG). As does all FFP games if memory serves.
Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:52 pm
Author: senorcoo
corkysru wrote:
I mean hell... the publishers of 7 wonders released a fix of the 3rd age cards that were printed just slightly differently. And that is a barely noticeable difference. Not a glaring difference like this.


And I found the 7W difference to be glaring. Sheesh.
Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:59 pm
Author: corkysru
senorcoo wrote:
corkysru wrote:
I mean hell... the publishers of 7 wonders released a fix of the 3rd age cards that were printed just slightly differently. And that is a barely noticeable difference. Not a glaring difference like this.


And I found the 7W difference to be glaring. Sheesh.

In all honestly if I enjoyed the game more I might notice/care more.
Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:47 am
Author: NthPower
horfrost3 wrote:
I contacted FFP and this is the response I got:

QUOTE wrote:
Hello Joanna,

We understand your concern about color variation in card backs. As gamers, ourselves, this always bothered us when playing our favorite games and having cards not match. We've made it a priority with our manufacturer in China. However, we've come to realize that there are always color variations in printing that cannot be helped. The variation shown in your photos is within the range of variation that we get in the printing process. I'm sorry for the difference in tint that you're seeing. Card replacements would also have similar variations.

Thank you,
Chris Kemnow
Flying Frog Productions, LLC


I guess I'll just have to deal with the color variation or sleeve the cards. Does any one know what sleeve size fits FFP cards? If I do sleeve, I'll just do the Secret cards, since I really really really do not like sleeves. Oh well.


I received that exact response when I e-mailed them back in January about card variations in LNoE and the Growing Hunger expansion.
I like their games, but the glaring color variations are disappointing. They should really look into getting it fixed.
Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:00 pm
Author: zpeteman
I work in publishing/printing and I can tell you for 100 percent certain that no printer in the U.S. would consider that acceptable. I just printed up a run of books a couple of months ago and a few illustrations came out slightly lighter than expected. I pointed it out to the printer and offered to settle for a small discount, but the printer wouldn't hear of it and instead printed the entire run correctly and rush-shipped them. And then on top of that they allowed us to keep the initial print run, which is entirely saleable. That's how printing works. Someone at FFP needs to press their printer and get the issue sorted out.

I wonder if the real issue is that FFP signed off on proofs without checking against previous editions. If that's the case, then it's not the printer's fault at all and FFP has no recourse.
Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:03 pm
Author: corkysru
zpeteman wrote:
I work in publishing/printing and I can tell you for 100 percent certain that no printer in the U.S. would consider that acceptable. I just printed up a run of books a couple of months ago and a few illustrations came out slightly lighter than expected. I pointed it out to the printer and offered to settle for a small discount, but the printer wouldn't hear of it and instead printed the entire run correctly and rush-shipped them. And then on top of that they allowed us to keep the initial print run, which is entirely saleable. That's how printing works. Someone at FFP needs to press their printer and get the issue sorted out.

I wonder if the real issue is that FFP signed off on proofs without checking against previous editions. If that's the case, then it's not the printer's fault at all and FFP has no recourse.

No recourse other than eating the cost of printing the cards. Even then... just print the cards needed. Its not like they need to remake the entire expansion(s).
Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:34 pm
Author: senorcoo
This just smacks of rampant laziness. I've been on the FF bandwagon since day one (with the exception of the stupid aliens vs. carnies game), but I'm not happy with this latest revelation.
Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:37 pm
Author: NasosP
Well, no Coast expansion for me. In fact I'll think twice before purchasing any other games from FFP.

I don't really mind the colour variation, these things happen. But for an established publisher, to refuse to produce replacements and actually suggesting that this level of QC is acceptable, well, there other products I can spend my money on.
Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:06 am
Author: Verbosity
I like Arkham Horror a lot, but my wife doesn't have the time to commit to the game. I went with A Touch of Evil as a compromise and have enjoyed the game. I purchased the base game and the Something Wicked expansion, and at first was impressed with the quality of the components when I opened and played the base game.

Then I opened the expansion. Those cards are slightly longer than the base game, which bothers the heck out of me. I don't want to be able to tell "oh, an expansion card is next in the deck" - I want to be surprised. Also, all the cardboard is warped (not to the point of unplayability, but noticeable - guess its time to buy some clamps and wood).

Now I read about this expansion and the card color, and I must say I am disappointed in the companies response. I will have to debate whether I wish to invest more in a company that turns out such a low quality product - a shame, because my wife really wants Fortune and Glory also and I want to round out the series with the expansions/cards. I will have to talk with my wife about what to do.
Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:36 pm
Author: dorktron2000
Verbosity wrote:
I will have to talk with my wife about what to do.


I am guessing your wife's response will be like this:

*blinks*

"I don't care either way."
Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:45 pm
Author: iguano
Verbosity wrote:
Now I read about this expansion and the card color, and I must say I am disappointed in the companies response. I will have to debate whether I wish to invest more in a company that turns out such a low quality product.


I'm in the same boat. I hope they respond to this differently and work to correct the problem otherwise it's doubtful I'll invest in expansions and that's a shame as I like their games.
Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:59 pm
Author: senorcoo
It's almost as if they are so certain that we stupid lemmings will mindlessly buy their product that they can churn out absolute crap and we'll fork over the $$$.
Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:39 pm
Author: repairmanjack
Wulf Corbett wrote:
Here's a pic of mine. No flash, but even so, I feel the contrast has been exaggerated by the camera. Nowhere near as extreme as the OP's pic.


Maybe not "extreme" but if FFG were a painting and decorating outfit, theyd'd be in court every other day of the week. That doesn't look acceptable to me - and I'm a huge fan of their stuff. Poor response from them, frankly.
Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:29 pm
Author: repairmanjack
senorcoo wrote:
It's almost as if they are so certain that we stupid lemmings will mindlessly buy their product that they can churn out absolute crap and we'll fork over the $$$.


In fairness, going by many of our purchases, I'd say they know their audience...
Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:30 pm
Author: elwatoplus
One of the stronger cards of FFP, beside their great games, was the quality of their components. A bad lot is understandable, it happens from time to time with all the companies. What differenciate the companies is their Customer Service. If FFP is not willing to replace the defective cards that affect gameplay, that are basically the Secret ones, what can we hope if we have a major quality issue with one of their games. This is sad because two of my favorite games are LNOE and AToE, and the company that produces both doesn't want to be responsible for the quality issues with their games.
Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:31 pm
Author: clip611
Does anyone know if this is constant in all of the Coast expansions? It seemed like the Coast was out for awhile (and everyone seemed really happy with it) before this issue was brought up.

I feel like I see issues like these in most of the expansions I buy, not just Flying Frog.

Unless it is some type of CCG, I almost expect anymore that expansion cards will not be the same size, which always forces me to sleeve (which I tried to stop). I have had this problem with either the Something Wicked or the web exclusive ATOE decks as well as lots of FFG expansions. I have also received cards with fronts that are oriented differently then base game.

Expansion boards are either not the same size and/or of an obvious different card stock so the boards do not look right together. This seems almost a given anymore especially when the base game is a few years old.

Then there are the miniatures that are a different size, plastic color or obviously made of cheaper plastic then the base game. Defenders of the Realm (while a great game) I think hit all of these issues.

I have games which shipped with old versions of cards -- this happened with one of the print runs of Runebound Island of Dread.

Tokens that are punched backwards from others.

Then there is Mage Knight...

I don't know if this is sloppiness on the part of the game publisher. FFG and Flying Frog both seem to spend a lot of time and money on designing attractive, visually appealing games. They don't seem to be inclined push an ugly, sloppy looking game out the door -- I know that some people don't always feel that the games are playtested enough and that the rules are unclear.

It seems that whatever contract they have with their publishers it must be that they are forced to take whatever shows up on the boat from China. Either that or they are going with someone so cheap they cannot assure any consistency between print runs. Probably both. Really wish that the industry as a whole could address these problems with the increasing number of sloppy print runs.
Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:00 pm
Author: iguano
The only other game I've had issues with was in my copy of Earth Reborn, the tokens were offset when they were punched. I contacted the company and they immediately sent out corrected replacements. I also know FFG is really good at quickly sending out replacements if there are any issues.

With color issues, these should be caught well before the full print run is printed and shipped. If a mistake is caught after printing, the printer should reprint. A recent example is for the Gunship Kickstarter game. After the printer printed all the boards, the printer mentioned they weren't happy with them (game designer couldn't tell what was wrong) and they reprinted the entire run.

Drew, I thnk you're right that in this case, it implies sloppiness on the part of the publisher. I'm guessing they goofed in the proofing process and now feel stuck with what they have, not wanted to incur the costs of reprinting since they didn't call the printer out on this when it was being printed once they saw their proofs.
Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:48 pm
Author: M00NSYLVER
clip611 wrote:
Does anyone know if this is constant in all of the Coast expansions? It seemed like the Coast was out for awhile (and everyone seemed really happy with it) before this issue was brought up.


The issue was mentioned pretty much right away, & I have yet to hear from anyone who DOESN'T have darker cards, so I have to assume it is true for the whole run.

In all honesty, and this is no slight to those that feel this way, my feeling is that most who have pick up The Coast HAVE been happy with it. My impression is that now that the subject has been broached in more detail that it gives those who WEREN'T more of a open forum to voice their displeasure & discuss the situation.

As stated earlier, I personally don't find it any impediment to my enjoyment of an otherwise fine expansion.

The color difference IMO is really only noticeable in the Secrets. I scanned a copy of a Secret card, put it on top of the deck, deal from the bottom, & make sure The Elders completely cover their Secrets. Problem solved. And there's always sleeving as well. Both simple & inexpensive fixes. (Even though I agree for the most part that there shouldn't be a need for them in the first place.)

Am I happy about it? No. Do I hope they're a little more stringent in the future? Yes. Does it affect my ability to use & enjoy the expansion? No. Do I regret my purchase? Not at all.

So anyone considering The Coast I guess has to ask themselves how much the issue is likely to bother them & does the workaround bother them or not.

If so, then pass on it. But if not, I hope you enjoy. It does make me sad to see folks missing out on it for what I find to be a minor issue easily fixed. But if it would bother them that much they're probably better off not picking it up.

I agree in general that it's not right, should have been caught/fixed, etc. But I would have kind have felt like I was throwing out the baby with the bathwater to have passed on it just based on that.

But I understand those that feel differently about it than I do. I'm sorry that The Coast hasn't yield the same positive experience for you that it has for me. I hope some kind of resolution can be found that is satisfactory to all.
---MS
Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:31 am
Author: iguano
Good points Moon. For me, the issue is more a matter of FFP's response more than the actual color issue. Had I not seen that response from FFP, I would be more apt to just grumble a bit and work around the issue. But the fact that they said this was an acceptable color variation really rubs me the wrong way and lowers my opinion of their quality standards, which saddens me because I love their games and their design ideas. I've worked in the printing Industry for a long time and know how this should be handled and that wasn't the proper way.
Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:51 am
Author: senorcoo
How about the fact that there has been no comment on this thread by FFP?
Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:08 am
Author: 1932f20
senorcoo wrote:
How about the fact that there has been no comment on this thread by FFP?


I agree. I wish FFP would make a response here. It appears to me that it is actually more of a public relations issue than anything else. If there was a little more communication I believe this issue could be resolved satisfactorily.
I love the Touch of Evil games in every way and it pains me to see this amount of friction over such a small matter. I hope there is some communication from FFP in the near future to resolve this issue... it is in MHO already out of hand.
Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:56 pm
Author: NthPower
The Mystery and Secrets cards are the biggest offenders. The other cards aren't as noticeable. It's more annoying than anything, and maybe a little embarrassing.

One thing that bothers me is it's a repeat problem. Seeing how the OP received a cut and paste of the email response I received almost a year ago, FFP knows this is a recurring problem, but doesn't seem to think it's an important enough issue to make any changes. Of course, we haven't heard anything from them, so maybe I'm off base. I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Unfortunately, this issue has caused me to hesitate when buying any of their new products to see if there are any more of these problems in the future.
Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:18 pm
Author: corkysru
repairmanjack wrote:
Wulf Corbett wrote:
Here's a pic of mine. No flash, but even so, I feel the contrast has been exaggerated by the camera. Nowhere near as extreme as the OP's pic.


Maybe not "extreme" but if FFG were a painting and decorating outfit, theyd'd be in court every other day of the week. That doesn't look acceptable to me - and I'm a huge fan of their stuff. Poor response from them, frankly.

FFP. Flying Frog Productions.

FFG is Fantasy Flight Games.
Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:11 pm
Author: Dam the Man
Is this mainly related to the Coast? Meaning, I've been eyeing Coast and HP2 for AToE, but also Timber Peak for LNoE. I did make a thread about Corner Locations having different shades of color on them with either HP1 or SW, but the pics posted look way worse.
Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:16 pm
Author: NthPower
Dam the Man wrote:
Is this mainly related to the Coast? Meaning, I've been eyeing Coast and HP2 for AToE, but also Timber Peak for LNoE. I did make a thread about Corner Locations having different shades of color on them with either HP1 or SW, but the pics posted look way worse.

I don't have Timber Peak, but I have the rest of the expansions and only noticed a color difference with Growing Hunger for LNoE. Here's a pic of the difference on those cards:



Not as bad as The Coast, but still noticeable when playing.
Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:46 pm
Author: Dam the Man
Yeah, I have SotF and HP1 for LNoE and don't recall any eye-catching differences in the card back color shades in the stacks.
Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:51 pm
Author: crackbone
Yeah, another person with a printing background. The variation of those cards is completely unacceptable. That applies to both the aToE and LNoE cards shown in this thread.

This isn't a borderline thing, those would be flat out rejected and the pressman would probably be raked over the coals (if not outright fired) for allowing a variation that obvious. Other game companies take this sort of thing seriously, and I don't know why FFP can't or doesn't care enough to contract with a vendor with more stringent QA.
Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:42 pm
Author: senorcoo
crackbone wrote:
I don't know why FFP can't or doesn't care enough to contract with a vendor with more stringent QA.


Because we are stupid and keep paying them, regardless of the crap that they churn out.
Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:51 pm
Author: corkysru
senorcoo wrote:
crackbone wrote:
I don't know why FFP can't or doesn't care enough to contract with a vendor with more stringent QA.


Because we are stupid and keep paying them, regardless of the crap that they churn out.

I haven't bought the new set yet. This is ridiculous.
On a side note I even sent this thread to Jason Hill on bgg here and got no response and he hasn't posted here..... This is horrible customer service.
Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:55 pm
Author: crackbone
senorcoo wrote:
crackbone wrote:
I don't know why FFP can't or doesn't care enough to contract with a vendor with more stringent QA.


Because we are stupid and keep paying them, regardless of the crap that they churn out.


I sure as hell won't be buying AToE or expansions after seeing that pic and hearing their response.
Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:06 pm
Author: iguano
corkysru wrote:
senorcoo wrote:
crackbone wrote:
I don't know why FFP can't or doesn't care enough to contract with a vendor with more stringent QA.


Because we are stupid and keep paying them, regardless of the crap that they churn out.

I haven't bought the new set yet. This is ridiculous.
On a side note I even sent this thread to Jason Hill on bgg here and got no response and he hasn't posted here..... This is horrible customer service.


I wonder if they are backed into a corner either based on an earlier inexperienced decision regarding the printer when they were starting out or that they are locked into a contract or don't know the limits on which they can refuse printed product and demand it reprinted or maintain a poor quality workflow with the printer, I don't know. Maybe this is all inexperience. They pour such thought and focus into the visual details of their games and I'm sure they don't like the differences in the cards, I get the feeling their hands are tied for some reason or another, whether by their doing or outside reasons.

I like their games and want to buy more, but this one simple correctable issue is preventing me from doing so. C'mon FFP, help me be the loyal customer I want to be. It's because I'm passionate about your games and your company that I'm frustrated and wish so much for this to be resolved.
Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:27 pm
Author: zpeteman
I was going to pick up this expansion for Christmas, but based on this thread, I won't be. I'll wait for a suitable reprint.
Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:04 pm
Author: rcmoore4
Okay, you're all going to skewer me as a "fanboy" for saying this, but as someone who owns the expansion this just doesn't bother me that much. It's mildly annoying at best. And there's a simple "sleeve the cards" solution at worst. I agree, FFP quality control should be better, but this hasn't stopped me from enjoying this expansion. I'm not disappointed I bought it, and I'm glad I get to enhance my play experience with this expansion.

I guess, though, without someone willing to take a stand (which many of you admirably are able to do), FFP may just keep doing more of the same. So I applaud those of you who are willing to take a stand for quality control. But for me, it's not such a deal-breaker.

Please be gentle on me.
Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:21 pm
Author: M00NSYLVER
rcmoore4 wrote:
Okay, you're all going to skewer me as a "fanboy" for saying this, but as someone who owns the expansion this just doesn't bother me that much. It's mildly annoying at best. And there's a simple "sleeve the cards" solution at worst. I agree, FFP quality control should be better, but this hasn't stopped me from enjoying this expansion. I'm not disappointed I bought it, and I'm glad I get to enhance my play experience with this expansion.

I guess, though, without someone willing to take a stand (which many of you admirably are able to do), FFP may just keep doing more of the same. So I applaud those of you who are willing to take a stand for quality control. But for me, it's not such a deal-breaker.

Please be gentle on me.


Thumb'ed & agree 100%. Bought it, played it, loved it, minor (IMO), but regrettable, quality issues did not change that one bit. Neither will all the name calling in the world. Makes me sad that others are going to miss out based on something that might be a non-issue when seen in person or introduced in play, but I'll continue to enjoy it regardless.
---MS
Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:21 pm
Author: corkysru
M00NSYLVER wrote:
rcmoore4 wrote:
Okay, you're all going to skewer me as a "fanboy" for saying this, but as someone who owns the expansion this just doesn't bother me that much. It's mildly annoying at best. And there's a simple "sleeve the cards" solution at worst. I agree, FFP quality control should be better, but this hasn't stopped me from enjoying this expansion. I'm not disappointed I bought it, and I'm glad I get to enhance my play experience with this expansion.

I guess, though, without someone willing to take a stand (which many of you admirably are able to do), FFP may just keep doing more of the same. So I applaud those of you who are willing to take a stand for quality control. But for me, it's not such a deal-breaker.

Please be gentle on me.


Thumb'ed & agree 100%. Bought it, played it, loved it, minor (IMO), but regrettable, quality issues did not change that one bit. Neither will all the name calling in the world. Makes me sad that others are going to miss out based on something that might be a non-issue when seen in person or introduced in play, but I'll continue to enjoy it regardless.
---MS

Unless the pictures lie(or you are extremely color blind) There is nothing minor about this kind of color change in a deck of cards that are supposed to be indistinguishable from each other. This is unacceptable. I very much enjoy FFP's games but this is disgraceful. They need to fix. Somehow. If it is only a few of the decks of cards that's not a big deal to handle.
Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:33 pm
Author: senorcoo
rcmoore4 wrote:
Okay, you're all going to skewer me as a "fanboy" for saying this, but as someone who owns the expansion this just doesn't bother me that much. It's mildly annoying at best. And there's a simple "sleeve the cards" solution at worst. I agree, FFP quality control should be better, but this hasn't stopped me from enjoying this expansion. I'm not disappointed I bought it, and I'm glad I get to enhance my play experience with this expansion.

I guess, though, without someone willing to take a stand (which many of you admirably are able to do), FFP may just keep doing more of the same. So I applaud those of you who are willing to take a stand for quality control. But for me, it's not such a deal-breaker.

Please be gentle on me.


I also agree that it's fixable, but that isn't the point. I was ticked off when the Ascension expansions were of different card thickness than the orignals, but what can you do? If you want to play the game, you have to deal with the issues. Doesn't mean I have to like it. arrrh
Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:01 am
Author: zpeteman
I'm far more put off by the customer service response than the actual defect. That's primarily because I'm in the print industry and I know how things work and they have not been handled appropriately here. It's entirely possible that an honest mistake was made and now it's too late to correct it. Fine. Then say so. But when they say that the defect is within tolerable limits, that's plainly wrong (by objective industry standards). I don't want to say someone is lying, but trust me, there is no corner of the professional print industry that would consider such a thing within tolerable limits. Being told otherwise is, well, a bit off-putting.
Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:26 am
Author: clip611
rcmoore4 wrote:
Okay, you're all going to skewer me as a "fanboy" for saying this, but as someone who owns the expansion this just doesn't bother me that much. It's mildly annoying at best. And there's a simple "sleeve the cards" solution at worst. I agree, FFP quality control should be better, but this hasn't stopped me from enjoying this expansion. I'm not disappointed I bought it, and I'm glad I get to enhance my play experience with this expansion.

I guess, though, without someone willing to take a stand (which many of you admirably are able to do), FFP may just keep doing more of the same. So I applaud those of you who are willing to take a stand for quality control. But for me, it's not such a deal-breaker.

Please be gentle on me.


I agree with you, it is mildly annoying and had I not known about it and bought the game I would I have probably just gone to the game closet and pulled out the card sleeves. As it stands now I will probably hold off a while to see if it gets fixed in another printing.

As I pointed out in my post I feel that most of the expansions I have bought have this problem. Even way back in Talisman 2nd ed one of the expansions had very different colored card backs.

I just wish that the game industry as a whole (which for me pretty much means Ameritrash) would stand up to the printers and stop accepting:
* different ink colors on cards
* misaligned fronts and backs on cards
* horrible typos
* miniatures of different sizes and plastic color
* the ever decreasing quality of boards, cards, and minis




Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:08 am
Author: corkysru
clip611 wrote:
rcmoore4 wrote:
Okay, you're all going to skewer me as a "fanboy" for saying this, but as someone who owns the expansion this just doesn't bother me that much. It's mildly annoying at best. And there's a simple "sleeve the cards" solution at worst. I agree, FFP quality control should be better, but this hasn't stopped me from enjoying this expansion. I'm not disappointed I bought it, and I'm glad I get to enhance my play experience with this expansion.

I guess, though, without someone willing to take a stand (which many of you admirably are able to do), FFP may just keep doing more of the same. So I applaud those of you who are willing to take a stand for quality control. But for me, it's not such a deal-breaker.

Please be gentle on me.


I agree with you, it is mildly annoying and had I not known about it and bought the game I would I have probably just gone to the game closet and pulled out the card sleeves. As it stands now I will probably hold off a while to see if it gets fixed in another printing.

As I pointed out in my post I feel that most of the expansions I have bought have this problem. Even way back in Talisman 2nd ed one of the expansions had very different colored card backs.

I just wish that the game industry as a whole (which for me pretty much means Ameritrash) would stand up to the printers and stop accepting:
* different ink colors on cards
* misaligned fronts and backs on cards
* horrible typos
* miniatures of different sizes and plastic color
* the ever decreasing quality of boards, cards, and minis

Most board game sleeves are clear. This is so you can easily separate the various types of cards. So sadly sleeves won't fix this for this issues.

The different colors of minis are annoying but not as much as cards of the same types being different shades.
Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:53 am
Author: clip611
corkysru wrote:
Most board game sleeves are clear. This is so you can easily separate the various types of cards. So sadly sleeves won't fix this for this issues.

The different colors of minis are annoying but not as much as cards of the same types being different shades.


But when you are a recovering sleever you have clear sleeves, sleeves with different colored backs, and sleeves with Melisandre on the back.

I forgot to mention the different sized cards in expansions problem.
Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:46 am
Author: corkysru
clip611 wrote:
corkysru wrote:
Most board game sleeves are clear. This is so you can easily separate the various types of cards. So sadly sleeves won't fix this for this issues.

The different colors of minis are annoying but not as much as cards of the same types being different shades.


But when you are recovering sleever you have clear sleeves, sleeves with different colored backs, and sleeves with Melisandre on the back.

I forgot to mention the different sized cards in expansions problem.

Heh. Those sleeves are for other games... Like any one of the number of Dead CCG's I play or live LCG's I play.
Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:03 am
Author: M00NSYLVER
corkysru wrote:
Unless the pictures lie(or you are extremely color blind) There is nothing minor about this kind of color change in a deck of cards that are supposed to be indistinguishable from each other.


I do feel the pictures exaggerate the difference a bit, it's not as noticeable in real life IMO, especially when shuffled together & sitting in a deck where you can't see more than one card at a time anyway. My color vision is fine, & I did say the issue was minor IN MY OPINION because it has in no way affected my ability to use or enjoy the expansion.
---MS
Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:01 am
Author: senorcoo
clip611 wrote:
But when you are a recovering sleever you have clear sleeves, sleeves with different colored backs, and sleeves with Melisandre on the back.

I forgot to mention the different sized cards in expansions problem.


You can RECOVER from being a sleever? I don't sleeve believe it.
Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:36 pm
Author: Wallensteinwojtek
All cards are affected or only SECRETS?
Sun Dec 2, 2012 1:07 pm
Author: rcmoore4
Wallensteinwojtek wrote:
All cards are affected or only SECRETS?


All cards are darker. It's mostly noticeable for the secrets and gives you a clue that an elder has a coast secret. The mystery card and event cards are less noticeable or bothersome.

Still, knowing that an elder has a coast secret hasn't really been a game changer for me...you still don't know if it's good, evil, or neutral. You're still go ing to want to take a sneak at the secrets before revealing if possible.
Sun Dec 2, 2012 2:34 pm
Author: mrsarcasmo
Wow. I can't believe no one here hasn't mentioned the controversy that happened when Growing Hunger came out, and the boards were insanely different than the original boards. That was way back in 2008, and I don't think they changed printers, because they still suck as bad.

Basically the short version goes something like this: Jason came in on page two of the conversation all hurty-feelings. It turns out that the original boards for the first printing of LNOE were actually too dark, and the new light boards were they was they were "supposed" to be and that from the second printing on, the boards would all match the new, lighter boards from Growing Hunger. Needless to say, this didn't impress us first-print owners. Their solution was to offer the new boards at a price. I believe I paid $15 with shipping, although that was five years ago and I don't remember the exact number. A lot of us remained unimpressed, but moved on.

If you want the long version, here it is: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/304587/growing-disappointmen...

It reminds me very much of this conversation.
Thu Dec 6, 2012 8:04 am
Author: senorcoo
You're totally right. I completely forgot about how pissed I was, being a 1st print owner.
Thu Dec 6, 2012 12:42 pm
Author: 1932f20
M00NSYLVER wrote:
rcmoore4 wrote:
Okay, you're all going to skewer me as a "fanboy" for saying this, but as someone who owns the expansion this just doesn't bother me that much. It's mildly annoying at best. And there's a simple "sleeve the cards" solution at worst. I agree, FFP quality control should be better, but this hasn't stopped me from enjoying this expansion. I'm not disappointed I bought it, and I'm glad I get to enhance my play experience with this expansion.

I guess, though, without someone willing to take a stand (which many of you admirably are able to do), FFP may just keep doing more of the same. So I applaud those of you who are willing to take a stand for quality control. But for me, it's not such a deal-breaker.

Please be gentle on me.


Thumb'ed & agree 100%. Bought it, played it, loved it, minor (IMO), but regrettable, quality issues did not change that one bit. Neither will all the name calling in the world. Makes me sad that others are going to miss out based on something that might be a non-issue when seen in person or introduced in play, but I'll continue to enjoy it regardless.
---MS



Just wanted to say I also agree with you two 100%. Great game. Great expansion. Its too bad such a small issue has moved the shadow track so many steps closer to darkness for some owners of this expansion. I think we need the event card "Its just a scratch"!!!
Thu Dec 6, 2012 1:30 pm
Author: M00NSYLVER
mrsarcasmo wrote:
Wow. I can't believe no one here hasn't mentioned the controversy that happened when Growing Hunger came out, and the boards were insanely different than the original boards. That was way back in 2008, and I don't think they changed printers, because they still suck as bad.

Basically the short version goes something like this: Jason came in on page two of the conversation all hurty-feelings. It turns out that the original boards for the first printing of LNOE were actually too dark, and the new light boards were they was they were "supposed" to be and that from the second printing on, the boards would all match the new, lighter boards from Growing Hunger. Needless to say, this didn't impress us first-print owners. Their solution was to offer the new boards at a price. I believe I paid $15 with shipping, although that was five years ago and I don't remember the exact number. A lot of us remained unimpressed, but moved on.

If you want the long version, here it is: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/304587/growing-disappointmen...

It reminds me very much of this conversation.


Yep. I thought of that as well. Really didn't want to bring it up. I'd rather forget about it.shake

Fortunatly, despite all the vitriol back then, a compromise was eventually reached wherein they sold replacement color corrected boards at cost. Maybe they're do the same for The Cost decks eventually. Who knows?
---MS
Thu Dec 6, 2012 10:19 pm
Author: Carcking
All this discussion seems to be centered around the COLOR of the cards...but my biggest issue is with the SIZE of the cards. What a pain in the neck to try to shuffle and not have the cards sort themselves and clump up in the deck. Very annoying - and if anything was going to break the deal for me it would be this.

Not being in the print or publishing industry I don't know if the cards would have been made and printed by the same company, or cut by one and printed by another. If two vendors are involved then there is definitely a pattern - of something - ineptness, inexperience, mismanagement, laziness (can this be possible?), disloyalty to fanbase - I don't know what but something is preventing FFP from getting it right and making it right. That is a shame.

Like MoonSylver though I dislike cutting my nose off to spite my face. If I hadn't purchased The Coast I would have missed out on an expansion that adds an incredible amount of depth to the AToE experience with new mechanics and characters.

It's a shame that FFP is missing the boat on the one critical mechanic that is the crux of the interaction between the player and the game - THE CARDS.
Fri Dec 7, 2012 6:28 pm
Author: clip611
Carcking wrote:
All this discussion seems to be centered around the COLOR of the cards...but my biggest issue is with the SIZE of the cards. What a pain in the neck to try to shuffle and not have the cards sort themselves and clump up in the deck. Very annoying - and if anything was going to break the deal for me it would be this.


This is why I can never break free of my sleeving addiction. At some point I am going to have to decide between either not sleeving and stop buying expansions or allow my unholy addiction to sleeving to destroy me.
Fri Dec 7, 2012 6:42 pm
Author: senorcoo
Sleevin' fo' life!
Fri Dec 7, 2012 6:47 pm
Author: corkysru
senorcoo wrote:
Sleevin' fo' life!

Always stay strong!
Fri Dec 7, 2012 7:09 pm
Author: 1932f20
Sleeving is addicting. I never had any use for it. Once I was introduced to it, I feel the need to sleeve all my cards. Even the ones that are incredibly tough and well madeblush.
Fri Dec 7, 2012 8:02 pm
Author: Kaworu17
I opened this thread because I'm a moron. I remember the issues from the Growing Hunger and was sort of angry about this until there was a sentence that got lost in FFP bashing:

Just draw from the bottom of the deck.

Nothing we do in an Internet forum is going to make a difference. FFP didn't change when Growing Hunger had a problem, nor when my cards in Something Wicked were a different size. How is this different?

I still like the game and want the variety. But hey, keep on trucking, guys.
It's not like we're talking Mayday games here.
Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:10 pm
Author: corkysru
Kaworu17 wrote:
I opened this thread because I'm a moron. I remember the issues from the Growing Hunger and was sort of angry about this until there was a sentence that got lost in FFP bashing:

Just draw from the bottom of the deck.

Nothing we do in an Internet forum is going to make a difference. FFP didn't change when Growing Hunger had a problem, nor when my cards in Something Wicked were a different size. How is this different?

I still like the game and want the variety. But hey, keep on trucking, guys.
It's not like we're talking Mayday games here.

HA. That is a painful comparison. I'd say it's unnecessary but .... I think FFP needs to see the dislike of their policies. I enjoy their games .. but this bullshit is getting ridiculous.
Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:22 pm
Author: senorcoo
Let me just defend Mayday games a little. Whenever I have sleeve issues, they are very good about helping me out. I know that may not be everyone's experience, but it has been mine.
Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:26 pm
Author: corkysru
senorcoo wrote:
Let me just defend Mayday games a little. Whenever I have sleeve issues, they are very good about helping me out. I know that may not be everyone's experience, but it has been mine.

I had sleeves that were different sizes.. I complained and they sent me new packages of sleeves.... There were also different sizes. Not just different heights like sometimes FFG's are... different heights AND widths.

I gave up at that point.
Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:34 pm
Author: elgamoth
my cards are darker too (not darker as the first pic but as the second row of pics).
mystery and secret cards are the most annoying. fortunately none of my party member notice this thing til now...

but the WORST thing is that the minis are of a different size!!!!!!
this is a mess.
Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:48 am
Author: ninjadorg
Got my copy for Christmas:

1. The card backs are way darker than the base game.
2. The minis are noticeably smaller too.
3. All of my tokens were badly misprinted with the text cropped off.

soblue

My FLGS were kind enough to replace it no questions asked which just about solved issue 3 (the text is only just on the counters, but just enough so that you can read and therefore play it), but not 2 and 1. So clearly this is a batch issue - I feel bad for FFP, but I feel ripped off too.
Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:42 pm
Author: ScottE
I'm bummed about this issue too but what really annoys me is the silence we get. I've noticed over the years that FFP hardly ever interacts with their customers here. The only posts we get is if a new game is coming out and they post some pics.

I suppose it's easier to just ignore it and let us all wind down and finally wander off. I recently have had some serious problems with Sony tech support with a TV that's been broken over 3 weeks now. I've called and called and all they do is either tell me what I want to hear (lies) or let me rant until I run about of breath, then just tell me sorry, that's the way it is.

With this card issue FFP would have to commission new cards which would cost them a lot of money so easier to let us vent and run out of steam. Sadly, I can understand why they do that.
Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:01 pm
Author: senorcoo
And if we stop buying their products, then it will be them that run out of steam.
Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:13 am
Author: clip611
senorcoo wrote:
And if we stop buying their products, then it will be them that run out of steam.


It seems to me these issues are pretty common with lots of expansions and have been for a long time for many publishers. It seems like with each new expansion the printers find someway to squeeze a few extra cents of profit out -- cheaper minis, card stock, boards, and little attempt is made to match colors, card sizes, or mini plastic. I guess their contracts with their overseas printers are what shows up is what you get.



Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:37 am
Author: iguano
clip611 wrote:


It seems to me these issues are pretty common with lots of expansions and have been for a long time for many publishers.


Do you have some examples of this? I can't think of any component difference issues I've had with expansions by other publishers, whether they are games I own or those my friends own. Obviously I haven't seen everything out there and am curious what other issues there are specifically as I'm curious to look into those publisher's responses.

The silence and lack of response of any kind by FFP has really turned me off unfortunately. I would love to get the whole Touch of Evil series but now, after this thread, I have no compulsion to buy any of it whatsoever, which is sad because the game is right up my alley.
Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:49 am
Author: clip611
I wrote about some issues I had back on pg 2 of this thread.

Going back to Talisman 2nd editions one of the expansions had an extremely different color of green.

Actually Talisman 4th ed (revised) might be one of the few games which the quality seems relatively the same between versions.

There are many threads about problems with all of the Mage Knight printings -- misaligned cards, cheap cards, color variations between print runs, reversed punched counters, broken minis, missing parts. That was just the base game.

Apparently Runebound Isle of Dread has had print runs which fixed typos and then the next print run used the bad versions of cards. Runebound also has expansions where the back of the card is aligned differently from the front compared to other expansions. Good number of typos. There is also a slight difference of card sizes.

Defenders of the Realms has minis of different plastic color and different type of plastic that is obvious enough from looking at the minis. Also cards are not sized consistently with the base game.

Arkham Horror it sounds like the board quality decreases with each print run to the point that they just rip apart. I also had the Arkham Horror base game with warping board issue.

There are others that I hear about here on BBG. The above are those which I have encountered personally. Considering that the majority of my game collection is a relative few games but having all the expansions it seems pretty common to me.

Then there is the smell of the cup in Stone Age...





Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:43 am
Author: M00NSYLVER
clip611 wrote:
Going back to Talisman 2nd editions one of the expansions had an extremely different color of green.


Actually, I'm not 100% sure any/all of the Talisman 2nd core + expansions match! (I have them all). It was one of the first things I thought of when the thread began. Maybe it's why this doesn't bother me a lot. I've seen it before.

That said, I know I'm in the minority on this from the posts in this thread. I do think FFP needs to take note. And & do find the responses given & the ensuing silence since a bit disturbing.

The fact that this bothers a lot of other people bothers me. It makes me sad on their behalf. And I fear it bodes ill for future FFP expansions with out some kind of resolution, or at least the issue being addressed going forward in the future.
---MS
Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:40 am
Author: 1932f20
M00NSYLVER wrote:
clip611 wrote:
Going back to Talisman 2nd editions one of the expansions had an extremely different color of green.


Actually, I'm not 100% sure any/all of the Talisman 2nd core + expansions match! (I have them all). It was one of the first things I thought of when the thread began. Maybe it's why this doesn't bother me a lot. I've seen it before.

That said, I know I'm in the minority on this from the posts in this thread. I do think FFP needs to take note. And & do find the responses given & the ensuing silence since a bit disturbing.

The fact that this bothers a lot of other people bothers me. It makes me sad on their behalf. And I fear it bodes ill for future FFP expansions with out some kind of resolution, or at least the issue being addressed going forward in the future.
---MS


I also have all of the 2nd edition Talisman games and the cards all vary slightly in color. Back when I bought them new in the 80's I never gave it any thought. It seems we expect much higher standards these days... maybe unreasonable standards? I would have given anything to have games like ATOE back then!!

I agree with MS that this issue bothers me mostly because it bothers so many others. I love the Flying Frog games and I want to see them be successful and produce lots more product. I am deeply concerned that this issue will result in potential customers perceiving these games to be of sub par quality. Nothing could be further from the truth! ATOE and FanG are WONDERFUL games both in quality and game play. I hope this situation gets cleared up soon...
Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:17 am
Author: Carcking
We know matched card expansions CAN be achieved...look at Dominion for example. We own the base game and all expansions. The card match is perfect...
Sun Jan 6, 2013 3:21 am
Author: zpeteman
Color matching is very simple. If a company accepts delivery of a print job that is not matched to satisfaction, that company either does not understand the print industry or they do not care about product quality. Plain and simple. This is why the issue is so serious for me. It's not a matter of FFP not being able to fix it, it's a matter of them not even caring enough about their product to look at proofs before signing the print order. There's really no excuse other than apathy toward the customer base.
Sun Jan 6, 2013 3:49 am
Author: senorcoo
And that apathy is demonstrated by the lack of a single peep by them regarding this matter.
Sun Jan 6, 2013 4:27 am
Author: jchill7

Hey Guys,

Sorry we haven't had a chance to be on BGG for a while or to give an official response to this thread. It has been a rough past few months for us here at the Frog including a lot of heartache and a death in the family.

We are starting to get things back on track now though. As for the noticeably darker card backs on the Secrets cards in The Coast expansion for ATOE, we have looked into a solution to this for players that are bothered by it. We will be printing a new set of the Secrets from the original ATOE as well as from The Coast (all of the Secrets currently in the game) on a single card sheet and having this available on our official webstore for free with a very small charge for shipping and handling. This should be available starting sometime in March.

The reason that this printing variation occurred is because, without us knowing it, the printer had lightened up some of the artwork for the original ATOE products years ago, without telling us. This has been an issue in the past and since then we have corrected it so that they never change the artwork without our knowledge anymore. This did however have the unintended side effect of making some of the cards in The Coast expansion appear darker than the previous cards. The Coast cards are a better representation of the actual artwork created for the game and the artwork for all future expansions and material moving forward. For the most part, this is either no change or only ever so slightly noticeable. We do understand though that the Secrets deck was affected the most by this, and is potentially the worst deck to have noticeable variation on - which is why we are printing the new unified set of all the Secrets with the 'true art' card coloration.

I am truly sorry that this color variation has caused so much grief to those of you here who care enough to post and send emails to us about it. As always, we work tirelessly to make the highest quality products and the most fun games we can, because we are first and foremost gamers and making great games is our passion.

To end on a slightly happier note, we are hard at work on some really exciting new projects for 2013, including Blood in the Forest for Last Night on Earth and an expansion for Fortune and Glory (as well as a few more surprises). We'll have more info on these over the coming months and will be showing off a lot of cool new stuff at the GAMA tradeshow in Las Vegas this March.

Happy Gaming!

-Jason

Jason C. Hill
Flying Frog Productions




Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:36 am
Author: senorcoo
Jason - wait a minute. They lightened the artwork without telling you? Forgive me if I'm mostly ignorant of how the gaming business works, but isn't it someone's job at FF to...I dunno...CHECK the final product before sending it out? I'm sorry, but that sounds like a total cop out to me. Like something from the 4th grade, "It wasn't me! Billy did it!"

And when you say that you'll be printing a new sheet for sale on the site, does that mean WE have to cut out our own cards?
Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:52 pm
Author: corkysru
senorcoo wrote:
Jason - wait a minute. They lightened the artwork without telling you? Forgive me if I'm mostly ignorant of how the gaming business works, but isn't it someone's job at FF to...I dunno...CHECK the final product before sending it out? I'm sorry, but that sounds like a total cop out to me. Like something from the 4th grade, "It wasn't me! Billy did it!"

And when you say that you'll be printing a new sheet for sale on the site, does that mean WE have to cut out our own cards?

If they were in a rush they may not have compared expansion to base set. (while not good.. understandable in a way.. I have many times pushed code to dev that worked in my sandbox with out remembering to check how it worked with everything on dev server. As a young programmer anyways.. I try not to do that anymore. )
And I doubt they would make us cut our own cards. haha.

But either way..
YAY!
They took care of the problem... I can lift the ban I put on buying their products. I finally have something to buy this month! haha.
Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:05 pm
Author: stadi
senorcoo wrote:
And when you say that you'll be printing a new sheet for sale on the site, does that mean WE have to cut out our own cards?


He most probably meant that the cards will be printed on a single sheet, so color consistency will be guaranteed. I'm not sure, but maybe between different sheets there could be a difference.
Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:16 pm
Author: ScottE
Thanks for responding Jason. That's great to hear and will definitely pick up a copy when it's available.
Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:23 pm
Author: senorcoo
If you could post here when they are available, that would be appreciated.
Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:33 pm
Author: rcmoore4
senorcoo wrote:
Jason - wait a minute. They lightened the artwork without telling you? Forgive me if I'm mostly ignorant of how the gaming business works, but isn't it someone's job at FF to...I dunno...CHECK the final product before sending it out? I'm sorry, but that sounds like a total cop out to me. Like something from the 4th grade, "It wasn't me! Billy did it!"

And when you say that you'll be printing a new sheet for sale on the site, does that mean WE have to cut out our own cards?


Cards are printed on sheets and then cut...we won't have to cut anything. It will be a pack of all the secrets and because they were printed at the same time, they'll all have the same color darkness. Sounds like a fine solution to me.

We asked for a response, we got one AND a solution for those who are bothered by the different back. Better late than never I say.
Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:43 pm
Author: iguano
I'm so glad a solution has been offered. I still think this should have been caught before going out, and perhaps reprinted base game secrets included in the expansions to fix if it was actually the base game with the problem. In any event, if this means there won't be any problems moving forward, then I'm back on the fan list for FFP. But I'm keeping a watchful eye out!
Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:31 pm
Author: senorcoo
Same here. Caution going forward.
Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:45 pm
Author: zpeteman
The issue still comes down to someone at FFP signing off on proofs without actually paying attention to them. That said, I'm really glad to see a response and a fix, though it seems odd to me that the customer is the one who has to pay shipping.

Looks like I'll be finally picking up a copy of The Coast once the new cards are out.
Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:28 pm
Author: horfrost3
Hi Jason,
I'm sorry to hear about the loss in your family.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to this thread, I'm thrilled that the Secrets deck will be reprinted! I'll be checking the FFP website in March and ordering my copy as soon as possible. I am also extremely excited for the Fortune and Glory expansion (my favorite FFP game so far.)
Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:59 am
Author: PrimordialOne
horfrost3 wrote:
I contacted FFP and this is the response I got:

QUOTE wrote:
Hello Joanna,

We understand your concern about color variation in card backs. As gamers, ourselves, this always bothered us when playing our favorite games and having cards not match. We've made it a priority with our manufacturer in China. However, we've come to realize that there are always color variations in printing that cannot be helped. The variation shown in your photos is within the range of variation that we get in the printing process. I'm sorry for the difference in tint that you're seeing. Card replacements would also have similar variations.

Thank you,
Chris Kemnow
Flying Frog Productions, LLC


I guess I'll just have to deal with the color variation or sleeve the cards. Does any one know what sleeve size fits FFP cards? If I do sleeve, I'll just do the Secret cards, since I really really really do not like sleeves. Oh well.


Most sleeves are see through. I use them all the time. Do they actually makes ones that conceal the backs of the cards?
Fri Mar 1, 2013 1:44 pm
Author: 1932f20
Yes. There are lots of companies out there selling card sleeves that are clear on one side and a variety of color choices on the back. If you search on ebay they are easy to find.
Sun Mar 3, 2013 1:01 am
Author: PrimordialOne
1932f20 wrote:
Yes. There are lots of companies out there selling card sleeves that are clear on one side and a variety of color choices on the back. If you search on ebay they are easy to find.


Thanks for the response!
Sun Mar 3, 2013 12:27 pm
Author: 1932f20
New replacement secrets cards are now available at Flying Frogs website!!
Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:18 pm
Author: senorcoo
Yup. I ordered mine...along with the Fortune and Glory additional danger cards as well. ninja
Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:02 pm
Author: NthPower
senorcoo wrote:
Yup. I ordered mine...along with the Fortune and Glory additional danger cards as well. ninja

Same here. Thanks to FF for fixing them. thumbsup
Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:28 pm
Author: zpeteman
Excellent. Finally time to buy The Coast!
Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:30 pm
Author: ScottE
Thanks Dan for posting they are available. I'm surprised someone from FF didn't post here about it. Did you just discover it by accident? Boy is their website out of date!
Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:25 pm
Author: 1932f20
ScottE wrote:
Thanks Dan for posting they are available. I'm surprised someone from FF didn't post here about it. Did you just discover it by accident? Boy is their website out of date!


Scott
I actually saw it when someone posted last night that there is a web exclusive Danger card pack available for Fortune and Glory. If you have that game you might want to pick that up also!

I have been checking their site every day for something new and... nothing.
I know they are a very small company and they sure crank a lot of product out, so i suspect the web site gets neglected. I suppose someone from FF will post something soon. We fans just do not have patience
Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:06 am
Author: ScottE
1932f20 wrote:
ScottE wrote:
Thanks Dan for posting they are available. I'm surprised someone from FF didn't post here about it. Did you just discover it by accident? Boy is their website out of date!


Scott
I actually saw it when someone posted last night that there is a web exclusive Danger card pack available for Fortune and Glory. If you have that game you might want to pick that up also!

I have been checking their site every day for something new and... nothing.
I know they are a very small company and they sure crank a lot of product out, so i suspect the web site gets neglected. I suppose someone from FF will post something soon. We fans just do not have patience

I agree, no patience here!

Though, the be honest it will probably be a great while before we play again so no big rush. But ordered anyway in case they run out.
Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:08 am
Author: elwatoplus
How much is the shipping within the US?
Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:56 am
Author: clip611
I paid $5.23 in shipping for the replacement Secret cards and the FANG Danger Pack.
Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:00 am
Author: elwatoplus
Thanks.

clip611 wrote:
I paid $5.23 in shipping for the replacement Secret cards and the FANG Danger Pack.
Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:28 am
Author: ScottE
I paid $2.99 just for the replacement cards.
Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:39 am
Author: Sassmatic
Ordered to Canada and I paid about $5.00
Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:56 am
Author: JRSly
My little package of FFP web supplements arrived today, including the Secrets card. Now the problem of what to do with the old cards!? They just seem too nice and I'm a little too much of a hoarder to toss them in the trash without reluctance.
Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:59 pm
Author: bgm1961

I just received a deck of replacement 'Secrets' cards today also, as part of a larger order. I threw the deck into the order because I intend to add 'The Coast' to my collection sometime in the next 6 months or so.

Question: In the meantime, do the extra cards meant for the 'Coast' work just fine with ATOE core and 'Something Wicked' (sans the 'Coast')? They look like they should.

Thx!
Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:26 am
Author: metal134
"we've come to realize that there are always color variations in printing that cannot be helped"

I may not be in the printing business, but it absolutely CAN be helped. I can pull any number of games of my shelf (namely Fantasy Flight, but many other publishers as well) where there is absolutely, positively NO discernible color variation between the base game and expansion.
Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:06 am
Author: clip611
metal134 wrote:
"we've come to realize that there are always color variations in printing that cannot be helped"

I may not be in the printing business, but it absolutely CAN be helped. I can pull any number of games of my shelf (namely Fantasy Flight, but many other publishers as well) where there is absolutely, positively NO discernible color variation between the base game and expansion.


I can pull many games off my shelves that the expansions and the base game have a number of inconsistencies in card size, colors, card orientation, different plastic used for minis, board sizes and so on.

I don't find it acceptable at all but overall it seems (unfortunately) pretty common place, even with FFG. For example, Runebound had different sized cards as well cards with a different front orientation between expansions. PACG ROTR had color issues with the first printing. Then the second printing was a slightly different size plus also the color was different from the first printing.

I won't even mention the printing issues I had with Mage Knight...

Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:42 am