Recommend
20 
 Thumb up
 Hide
147 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » General Gaming

Subject: The thrill of (game) bashing. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Samo Oleami
Slovenia
Ljubljana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dear community. I am often surprised by your generosity and niceness, but then there are these weird occurrences that leave me confused. It happened on numerous geeklists and threads, and recently on a dicetower video. So I'd be happy if somebody could reasonably explain this phenomenon .

Scenario:
Somebody decides to tackle an issue with negative connotations, like: list of overrated games, or games that didn't delivered on their premise, or games you thought you'll like, but didn't and so on.

Outcome:
What actually happens is that everybody just forgets the whole idea and just vents and vents and bashes on anything they personally don't like. Any structure or idea that was initially behind the list vanishes and in the end we just get same old venting. Bye bye arguments and reason.

Hypothesis:
I'm probably out on a limb here, but my impression is that american culture in general has problems with articulated criticm (that's why Dice tower video is linked). You either love it, or you hatehatehate it. I understand that repressed emotions need to go out sometimes, or it can even be that the constant pressure to appease to everyone gets to you and then things go boom. I just thought that maybe consider of doing it a bit more consciously?

It may also be just me, so thank you for listening. I just have this idea that if we understand why we don't like some things and other things we can also more easily understand how varied the world and people are and thus we can accept other people's different likes and dislikes better.

EDIT:
hypothesis is in constant flux of changes and rewrites, so check the thread.
24 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe Basham
United States
Brownsville
Kentucky
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Well, in 'Murica, there is a direct correlation between how loud you are and how right you are. Generally, our discussions look something like this:

59 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Brown
United States
Okemos
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I thought the Dice Tower guys did a decent job in regards to why they didn't like the games give the time restriction so I don't think it was merely people just arguing for the sake of it. I do think they hammed it up being in the moment with a live crowd.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe Waller
United States
Peachtree City
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
I really don't claim to know anything on this but I would suggest it is more a comment on the culture of anonymity than on American culture. The internet provides a platform for any Tom, Dick, or Harry to post baseless statement without need for logic or educated reasoning and without fear of someone identifying them as the idiot with the ridiculous comment. This flames an equal but opposite post and then a flame war starts.

edit: I think I misunderstood the OP. I thought this was a remark on the mindless comments section of the video and not the actual video itself. Sorry if I complicated the discussion.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Sommer
United States
Racine
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
matthean wrote:
I thought the Dice Tower guys did a decent job in regards to why they didn't like the games give the time restriction so I don't think it was merely people just arguing for the sake of it. I do think they hammed it up being in the moment with a live crowd.


+1 on all of these points.

I don't think the LOVE/HATE polarization thing is an "American" phenomenon... I think it's an internet phenomenon. We seem to be living in an age where people are either FANBOYS or HATERS, with little in-between.

I think matthean hit the nail on the head as to what this video was all about.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Enrico Viglino
United States
Eugene
OR
flag msg tools
Slowed - BGG's moderation policies have driven me partially from here
badge
http://thegamebox.byethost15.com/smf/
Avatar
mb
sgosaric wrote:

What actually happens is that everybody just forgets the whole idea and just vents and vents and bashes on anything they personally don't like. Any structure or idea that was initially behind the list vanishes and in the end we just get same old venting. Bye bye arguments and reason.


I'm not convinced that there is any 'idea' in the video which is more
than what it presented.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
CD Harris
United States
Louisville
KY
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sgosaric wrote:
Hypothesis:
I'm probably out on a limb here, but my impression is that american culture in general has problems with articulated criticm (that's why Dice tower video is linked). You either love it, or you hatehatehate it. I understand that repressed emotions need to go out sometimes, or it can even be that the constant pressure to appease to everyone gets to you and then things go boom. I just thought that maybe consider of doing it a bit more consciously?


That's a pretty narrow limb. Especially considering your dataset seems to be the aforementioned Internet discussions of select topics.

I think I speak for the overwhelming majority in saying that the overwhelming majority of the time people are griping about something (a game in this context) I don't have a dog in the hunt and therefore don't say anything. A moderate percentage of the time, I may have an interest but it's not strong enough to impel me to join in. But a tiny percentage of the time, I feel strongly about something (positively or negatively) and may very well speak up.

Apply to vast numbers of people with widely disparate tastes and degrees of willingness to engage and, yeah, a whole lot of discussions will eventually start to look like you said. Eventually, just about any topic is prone to being taken over by the tiny percentage of people who feel strongly about that particular topic and want to say so.

In short, even leaving aside the all-but-inherent atavism of semi-anonymous Internet discussions, your dataset is hopelessly compromised by selection bias and therefore does not provide a valid basis upon which to form conclusions about a culture of 300+ million people.
26 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott
New Zealand
Auckland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
sgosaric wrote:

I'm probably out on a limb here, but my impression is that american culture in general has problems with articulated criticm (that's why Dice tower video is linked).


This looks like low level America bashing. I would have thought a more accurate statement is that "human culture in general has problems with articulated criticism". I, not an American, am actually have problems with the criticism in this post--and I'm the one articulating it. :)
23 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Samo Oleami
Slovenia
Ljubljana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
matthean wrote:
I thought the Dice Tower guys did a decent job in regards to why they didn't like the games

Except that's not what was written on the tin. "I don't like it" does not equal "is overrated" (the latter means a social context, the former means a personal one). The reason why I linked the video is that I found it as another case of "every time I try to be critical it boils down to 'I don't like it'". I'm okay with that as long as one names it as such. (I don't want to get too much focused on the video - go through geeklists and one can find numerous examples.) All these negative lists boil down to one scarcely articulated "stuff I don't like" and the weird relief the poster or presenter gets from stating that (another thing I don't get).

This being a case of an internet culture is a good argument, though I'm not sure it's what I'm trying to address. Hm, maybe it is, but then what happens with the online anonymity is more of symptom of generally suppressed emotions which are then shouted out with great relief ("I can finally say how much I dislike this or that").
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Samo Oleami
Slovenia
Ljubljana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
blaecblaed wrote:
This looks like low level America bashing. I would have thought a more accurate statement is that "human culture in general has problems with articulated criticism". I, not an American, am actually have problems with the criticism in this post--and I'm the one articulating it.

Oh I don't think the level is that low. Look, I can articulate a thought. It's mid to low at the least...

I start with a speculation that arises from an experience and then I open a thread and see where it will go and some thing happen. I have no fixed idea, but am inquiring on a certain intuition.

Amuk wrote:
Eventually, just about any topic is prone to being taken over by the tiny percentage of people who feel strongly about that particular topic and want to say so.

In short, even leaving aside the all-but-inherent atavism of semi-anonymous Internet discussions, your dataset is hopelessly compromised by selection bias

It's good point, yet, why do they feel strong about it? Why don't they think strong about it or argument strong about it? Seems to me that this basis in having "strong feelings" is why every negative topics ends up in this strong emotional discourse.

People on forums being lurkers or whatever, still it seems that emotional discourse of those rarely participating will overwhelm "regular posters" (speculating these are any different from the former). The way how "feeling strong about something" cuts through the structure intended for instance by original geeklist poster still speaks to me about some sort of cultural habits which are behind it. They may not be american specific true (I've got other hypotheses as well...).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Curt Carpenter
United States
Kirkland
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sgosaric wrote:
Hypothesis:
I'm probably out on a limb here, but my impression is that american culture in general has problems with articulated criticm (that's why Dice tower video is linked).

Making generalities about everyone at Dice Tower isn't broad enough? You're using the video to take on all of American culture? Seriously?

Counter-hypothesis:
My impression is that you see some tiny sliver of American media and erroneously extrapolate that onto American society/culture as a whole. You know what makes Dice Tower so popular? They produce a boat-load of content. And are mostly positive. There is very little mass popularity for well-articulated criticism.
22 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brett Bond
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I dunno, in some ways I think the video format can make engagement with specific issues more difficult and there's always the tension between entertainment and information. Longer written reviews can probably do what you are talking about better than a video like this ever can.

I enjoyed the video. though it did lack the normal draw of 'maybe i'll discover a great game I don't know about', and though all of the guys had a different approach, as a whole it worked rather well. Overrated games ought to be well loved games, highly ranked games that just aren't all that, and most of the comments were along the line of - there's not that much to it, there's really only one mechanic, its highly luck based, misrepresented etc.

And those are legitimate sources for critique imo. Especially when we are talking about well thought of games. Some of the games in the video were more along the line of what you said - but a list of overrated games will always be an opinion list. My two cents anyway...



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Enrico Viglino
United States
Eugene
OR
flag msg tools
Slowed - BGG's moderation policies have driven me partially from here
badge
http://thegamebox.byethost15.com/smf/
Avatar
mb
curtc wrote:
sgosaric wrote:
Hypothesis:
I'm probably out on a limb here, but my impression is that american culture in general has problems with articulated criticm (that's why Dice tower video is linked).

Making generalities about everyone at Dice Tower isn't broad enough? You're using the video to take on all of American culture? Seriously?


This is what DT is about.
They're not about critically reviewing. They're guys who enjoy games,
and give enough information for the broad base of people which (generally)
positively influences decisions. They do not like all games, but they
cannot really manage to level real criticism. Tom can toss a game
in the garbage, but he is not there to analyze the game. The vast majority
do not want what amounts to philosophizing when they're looking to
be convinced that they'd enjoy something. If they presented critiques,
most people would be bored, and companies would not have the excellent
salesmen (this is not an issue of ethics here - it's just that how they
think about games is good for the market) that DT provides the hobby.

I don't think this is uniquely American though. We may have invented
the mass-market culture, but everyone's somewhat infected now.

Bondy034 wrote:
Overrated games ought to be well loved games, highly ranked games that just aren't all that


Yes.

Quote:
and most of the comments were along the line of - there's not that much to it, there's really only one mechanic, its highly luck based, misrepresented etc.


Other than the first point, I'm not convinced these are valid criticisms.
A 'perfect' game could well have one mechanic (the game I believe the closest
to perfection does - Go). It could also be highly luck-based, or
viewed in a light which amounts to misrepresentation (in fact, this latter
doesn't even sound like a part of the game so much as a marketing strategy).

But again, I'm not sure that, given the source, one would have
any reason to expect a critique. That's not what Tom (not familiar
with these other DT stablehands except from these top 10 lists) provides
in his reviews, and there is far more opportunity to really weigh the
positive and negative aspects fully in a 15 min + segment on a single game. These top ten lists are pretty much pure opinion -
they include justification for the opinion, but no critique.

5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derry Salewski
United States
Augusta
Maine
flag msg tools
badge
I'm only happy when it rains...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So you're confused that when someone gives a fancy name to their game bashing, people come along and blatently start game bashing?

Ok . . .
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott
New Zealand
Auckland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
sgosaric wrote:
blaecblaed wrote:
This looks like low level America bashing. I would have thought a more accurate statement is that "human culture in general has problems with articulated criticism".

Oh I don't think the level is that low. Look, I can articulate a thought. It's mid to low at the least...


In this case "low level" did not mean the amount of skill used was small. "Low level" here meant that you were not extreme or exaggerated. As an example, teachers often talk of "low level disruption" when a child throws paper, arrives late, pulls faces or similar as opposed to more extreme behaviour like throwing a chair through a closed window.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott
New Zealand
Auckland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
calandale wrote:
A 'perfect' game could well have one mechanic (I believe the closest
game to perfection does - Go).


I obviously missed the memo that defined game perfection such that go was the closest to it.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vivienne Raper
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've listened to a bunch of Dice Tower podcasts recently while out jogging and, no, they're not critical analysis. They're designed mainly to entertain and, as a secondary function, to inform. They're also written mainly from and for an audience of men in their mid-30s who game with other men in their mid-30s. Melody and Tom's other kids do get a look-in, but the podcast and reviews aren't mainly about family or community gaming.

Needless to say, OTT slagging off is part of the 'entertainment'. It's harder to be entertaining and give a reasoned, critical and interesting review.

I know that's frustrating, but it's the nature of media. If you read the UK's Daily Mail Femail section, most of the comment pieces are completely OTT confessionals where women slag off other women or describe ludicrous foibles in graphic detail. It's all 'why I am too beautiful to make friends', 'how I fantasised about putting my baby in a blender'... That style of writing gets lots of hits and comments.

7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Enrico Viglino
United States
Eugene
OR
flag msg tools
Slowed - BGG's moderation policies have driven me partially from here
badge
http://thegamebox.byethost15.com/smf/
Avatar
mb
blaecblaed wrote:
calandale wrote:
A 'perfect' game could well have one mechanic (I believe the closest
game to perfection does - Go).


I obviously missed the memo that defined game perfection such that go was the closest to it.


Words got jumbled - the "I believe" didn't work as I hoped.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
I have a hypothesis: the thrill of armchair psychological and sociological hypotheses is that they are facile to construct and require no detailed knowledge of the nominal topic but place the promulgator above the subjects whose behaviour is thus described. They contribute nothing of value to discuss, but they are not easily falsifiable and therefore have a narrow risk profile to the ego no matter how preposterous they are.
9 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Samo Oleami
Slovenia
Ljubljana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
scifiantihero wrote:
So you're confused that when someone gives a fancy name to their game bashing,

Yes, very. Why not just call it game bashing and be done with it? I like good honest game bashing as it's usually more light hearted than the one that pretends to be something else if this makes sense (based on pure personal observation).

I see that the video link is far too confusing - it's meant as an example of a certain syptom, I'm not really going to comment it in detail (I expect there will be a thread on bgg on that). Apparently I must give further examples of "things that aren't named to be subjective game bashing but became exactly that".

Searching through my comment history, I've found these two:
The Bullets You've Dodged
("oh how happy I am that I did not buy this evil game that wanted to take my money, bash, bash")
Games you wish you never bought
(see above)

then the recent
Flaws
(Thread with subjective bashing posing as objective fact. A bit specific as OP was the culprit, but still has the same problem of detaching emotional subjective response from the aim and the intended message of the tread )

And I've found some that do what it says on the tin and everybody gets nuts. Hm. it seems that one just must not speak about money...
Maybe I'll find some other stuff as well.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J J
Australia
flag msg tools
sgosaric wrote:
blaecblaed wrote:
This looks like low level America bashing. I would have thought a more accurate statement is that "human culture in general has problems with articulated criticism". I, not an American, am actually have problems with the criticism in this post--and I'm the one articulating it.

Oh I don't think the level is that low. Look, I can articulate a thought. It's mid to low at the least...

I start with a speculation that arises from an experience and then I open a thread and see where it will go and some thing happen. I have no fixed idea, but am inquiring on a certain intuition.

Amuk wrote:
Eventually, just about any topic is prone to being taken over by the tiny percentage of people who feel strongly about that particular topic and want to say so.

In short, even leaving aside the all-but-inherent atavism of semi-anonymous Internet discussions, your dataset is hopelessly compromised by selection bias

It's good point, yet, why do they feel strong about it? Why don't they think strong about it or argument strong about it? Seems to me that this basis in having "strong feelings" is why every negative topics ends up in this strong emotional discourse.

People on forums being lurkers or whatever, still it seems that emotional discourse of those rarely participating will overwhelm "regular posters" (speculating these are any different from the former). The way how "feeling strong about something" cuts through the structure intended for instance by original geeklist poster still speaks to me about some sort of cultural habits which are behind it. They may not be american specific true (I've got other hypotheses as well...).


It isn't specific to America. I see it everywhere, and despair of it all the time. In my experience, the majority of people allow their feelings to over-rule their reason, and they (generally) aren't even aware of it.

Controversy time - I live in a region with a population from many varied nations (we have Europeans, Africans, Asians, the occasional North American, and backpackers from everywhere). And although I will apply the above to everyone, I observe a larger magnitude of the effect amongst those I encounter of mediterranean heritage (it's just a cultural thing, I think). Which would be your region, Samo...
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
sgosaric wrote:

then the recent
Flaws
(Thread with subjective bashing posing as objective fact. A bit specific as OP was the culprit, but still has the same problem of detaching emotional subjective response from the aim and the intended message of the tread )

Please read the OP with particular attention to how high it is on the emotional thrill of game bashing. To infer with such perspicacity from my list of completely abstract game attributes only goes to show that our little Sambo will grow up to be the next Dr. Freud. However, that part about "posing as objective fact" is a figment of Sambo's over-active imagination.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Samo Oleami
Slovenia
Ljubljana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
calandale wrote:
This is what DT is about.
They're not about critically reviewing. They're guys who enjoy games,
and give enough information for the broad base of people which (generally)positively influences decisions.

veemonroe wrote:
I've listened to a bunch of Dice Tower podcasts recently while out jogging and, no, they're not critical analysis.


Okay, maybe I can rephrase the question:
Is there really no space in between "serious criticm" and "emotionalism"?

There is a time and space to be completely subjective and negative and so on. Why can't there also be a time for a bit of conscious articulation of these subjective feelings? - it's that small difference between "Luck is stupid and has no place in gaming" and "I game for intellectual competition, so games with pronounced luck get on my nerves".

I'm not saying everybody needs to be now seriously critical or whatever. For me negative feedback on a game is highly valuable. It means I can learn on somebody else's mistakes and not mine. It saves time, inner peace and money. This is why I appreciate negative lists - when done right. When one gets so subjective, they just vent their frustrations out, I'm lacking entry point which would help me understand the 'why' behind it. Let's put it like this:
- the venting lists and thread have an emotional function and that's okay
- negative lists with a specific take (games you didn't like as much as you thought, games that bombed, games you're sorry you bought, ...) need to do just one small step forward which is the effort to communicate. It's just that, articulating of one's dislike and considering they'll be read.

calandale wrote:
Quote:
and most of the comments were along the line of - there's not that much to it, there's really only one mechanic, its highly luck based, misrepresented etc.


Other than the first point, I'm not convinced these are valid criticisms.


My problems exactly - these are emotional statements pretending to have some objective value. It's just a drafting game, it's just a negotiation game and so on... Ok, there would be at least two ways to go about it, one is actually understanding what game is and isn't, the other, easier approach would simply be, "what people think of this game" (overrating) and why I think of their arguments. This puts subjective against subjective and it's not that hard to do.

calandale wrote:
These top ten lists are pretty much pure opinion -
they include justification for the opinion, but no critique.

I guess my problem with all these lists is simply: stick to your premise. If your premise is "overrated games" then the context is what other people think of these games and this is then the starting point - where in the video it seemed that personal dislike was the starting point. Just that small difference. Or if you write about games you're happy you didn't buy, explain the "I tried but was underwhelmed" moment rather than "Devil get away from by bank account". If you can't take it to that level of consciousness (which is not really that high), then just name it a "hatefest" and that's okay.

EDIT:
I don't want to come across as bashing on Dice Tower crew. Just recently there was a podcast about "Turkey Games" (games that simply aren't as enjoyable as they once were) and I absolutely had no problem with that. Maybe it's different chemistry between Vasel and Summerer than with Vasel, Z and Haley that makes that difference.

Kiraboshi wrote:
I have a hypothesis that the thrill of armchair psychological and sociological hypotheses is that are facile to construct and require no detailed knowledge of the nominal topic but place the promulgator above the subjects whose behaviour is thus described. They contribute nothing of value to discuss, but they are not easily falsifiable and therefore have a narrow risk profile to the ego no matter how preposterous they are.


As I said, it's on the fly thinking based on some experiences or intuition and I'm the kind of person who likes to brainstorm with other people on a thread. It's a bumpy ride with an office chair and a laptop and expecting in front to get a lot of flak and nitpickings of those not really solid statements while the good ones get avoided. But, I'm used to it. Usually things normalise with a a second or third page. I take some things, form new hypothesis and wait for someone to join the thread and say something really clever. Tends to happen.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J J
Australia
flag msg tools
sgosaric wrote:

As I said, it's on the fly thinking based on some experiences or intuition and I'm the kind of person who likes to brainstorm with other people on a thread. It's a bumpy ride with an office chair and a laptop and expecting in front to get a lot of flak and nitpickings of those not really solid statements while the good ones get avoided. But, I'm used to it. Usually things normalise with a a second or third page. I take some things, form new hypothesis and wait for someone to join the thread and say something really clever. Tends to happen.


Or you and Calandale go at it for pages and pages, cos he uses exactly the same method too
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Samo Oleami
Slovenia
Ljubljana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JasonJ0 wrote:
In my experience, the majority of people allow their feelings to over-rule their reason, and they (generally) aren't even aware of it

This, yes.

I think I will concede that the phenomenon is global, though it might have originated in US together with consumerism. (I'm kinda scared to state my actual hypothesis. will see...).

Though I think I have nothing against emotional people, heck I am emotional people, but emotions could also be communicated and made conscious. Just say a lot of "I think", "from my perspective", "for those who like" (and I've learned this on BGG!).

JasonJ0 wrote:
Which would be your region, Samo...

Oh, no I'm so mitteleuropean it's embarrassing.
People you mention live some 100 km southwest from here... (this is far away in europe). They tend to cook very well so they're occasionally forgiven.

Oh and welcome to the European sport of "blame it on a neighbour".

JasonJ0 wrote:
Or you and Calandale go at it for pages and pages, cos he uses exactly the same method too

Thoughts go faster when you hear them. laugh

I'm on a forum thread, I'm being scrutinised, so I have to rethink and backstep and am forced to articulate ever more clearly. Sure solo thinking gets you places, but group discussion gets you (me) there faster. And I can't really rely on myself to call some of my ideas downright stupid.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.