The Hotness
Games|People|Company
The Hotness has gone cold...
Recommend
30 
 Thumb up
 Hide
87 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 

The Agents» Forums » General

Subject: Pledge pulled.... rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Joel Eddy
United States
Coeur d'Alene
ID
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Anyone who backed The Agents...

Apparently the guy has another KS account and "possibly" stiffed backers on the other account with another project. Pledge pulled. If the game comes out later, I will just get it then.

YMMV
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darth Ed
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That's distressing. Can you provide details?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Eddy
United States
Coeur d'Alene
ID
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DarthEd wrote:
That's distressing. Can you provide details?


Check the comments of the Agents project. There are links and other comments provided.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nicholas Vitek
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Which other project?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Eddy
United States
Coeur d'Alene
ID
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nich wrote:
Which other project?


Ringbow
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Eddy
United States
Coeur d'Alene
ID
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Interesting. Creator JUST created a response right now. I'm still holding back my pledge, but here's his side.

Quote:
Dear Agents.
Please let me address the Ringbow concern that has been raised by Derek.
I am the original inventor of Ringbow. I had the original idea for this ring device 6 years ago and decided to bring on a partner to take the role of CEO, Efrat Barit - so that she could run the business side of my invention. Both Efrat and I put our own and our family's money into the start-up, and neither of us claimed a salary for the past couple of years (and before that, never more than the most basic of start-up stipends).
While the company received many accolades (please see here, here and here), we were struggling to find funding for developing the product. And while we had many promising business engagements, such as with AT&T, we still could not raise enough to produce it. Investors invest in software, not hardware.
Kickstarter seemed the perfect platform to let the public decide. As we continuously received enthusiastic responses about the promise of the invention, we wanted to give our supporters a chance to help us make it a reality, so we worked hard to establish a partnership with a manufacturer that would allow us to launch a Kickstarter campaign and provide backers with a complete product.
While the campaign was successful, the business sadly went downhill from there. The most critical issue is from that point forwards, I was gradually excluded from the day to day operations of the company. I have seen this invention that I built and love slip from my grasp. It's a long, complicated situation, but essentially, I, like our backers, have watched helpless from the sidelines to the point that the only little information I was receiving about my invention was via the irregular updates provided on the Ringbow KS page.
I wish I could personally provide more insight into what is happening with the product. I wish I knew more and it breaks my heart that I don't, and that our generous, loyal backers have grown frustrated with Ringbow and with Kickstarter. That was absolutely not our intention and is not what Kickstarter is about.
My dream is to be an inventor. With Ringbow I made an attempt to be just that, giving up a career, savings and years of my life, just to see it become something I am unable to control. It pains me greatly to see my life's work like this while I cannot do anything about it. And still I do not give up in my attempts to help Ringbow deliver on its promise.
I've learned a lot from my experience with Ringbow and I'm doing everything I can so that this time around things will be different. Ringbow is a company I helped found, and I am just a part of it. With The Agents, I'm putting my own personal reputation on the line and I'm taking full responsibility for the results of this campaign. As I've learned about the difficulties of manufacturing a physical product, I have specifically designed The Agents so that it contains only cards, thus being simple to produce and easy to ship. I have extensively researched manufacturing and dispatch options and made sure that unlike with Ringbow I have full control over the process. I'm also happy to announce that we are in the final stages of signing a Publisher Support agreement with Game Salute, whose services have brought hundreds of games to the market, in order to ensure delivery to every single backer who have given me their trust and support.
I have also witnessed the importance of open communication and transparency. Since the campaign had launched I have been working around the clock to be available for any question or request there might be, and I am committed to continuing to do so.
As an inventor and game designer I believe I can contribute much to the community, and my only desire is to do so. I appreciate anyone who has given me this chance to make my vision a reality. My pledge to all of you is that I will give everything it takes in order to complete this project and until every single backer is satisfied. I only want people to enjoy my creations and I need your help to make this happen. Please do not let my past mistakes ruin my future. I wish to make things right and I am eternally grateful for all the support I've been receiving. I hope you'll continue to believe in me.
The Agents is not just a card game. It has been a part of me for the past year and will continue to be a part of me forever. I stand by it completely and I am going to see it through no matter what. That I can guarantee!
If you have more questions, reservations or concerns about this issue please message me and I will personally respond.
From the bottom of my heart and with my sincere gratitude - thank you. Saa
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Eddy
United States
Coeur d'Alene
ID
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Man... this reminds me of Up Front... devil
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Rennie
United Kingdom
Louth
flag msg tools
mbmb
eekamouse wrote:
Man... this reminds me of Up Front... devil


Thanks Joel for letting us know....not good like you say.

To risky for me personally, whatever someone says doesn't matter to me, actions speak louder than words I'm afraid and reading the comments on Ringbow, taking 135k and not delivering, oh dear.
Like you if it comes out later then I'll pick it up but too many games out there to take such a risk on this one.

Company practices like ringbow project make me gulp

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Ham
Malta
Marsalforn
Gozo, Malta
flag msg tools
badge
CLICK THIS BEAGLE if you're looking for in-depth gameplay video run-throughs! :)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hmm, just looked at the history of Ringbow, and it seems to me that there's a small group of backers there who are furious that the project is running long - though honestly, that's to be expected, mistakes WILL be made in an endeavour like that. It also seems like the vast majority of Ringbow backers are quietly and happily waiting for the project to work through the kinks, understanding that these things take time.

In my experience, making computer hardware is INCREDIBLY hard, and it's not surprising that Ringbow missed its date, but they've been updating everyone monthly (could do more, but still, monthly ain't bad) and seem to be making progress.

That said, there is some new update that's for backers only. So I have no idea what it says... anyone know? Apparently it mentions something to do with legal difficulties that the developers are facing which has prevented them from being more forthright in their communications (hence the backer-only update). In my experience, that's perfectly understandable too... they're already on the record about the big problems with the manufacturering partner they've lined up, and if there's legal action to be followed, then they simply can't talk openly about those problems in an open forum, or it could be used against them in court, and further hurt their chances of shipping Ringbows.

Anyway, the complexity of putting out a small card game is a metric tonne less than a new piece of bluetooth gaming hardware. I honestly don't believe there's any reason to be concerned for Agents. Plus, the creator Saar's post above indicates that he's largely just the heartbroken front man for Ringbow anyway, not involved in the ongoing operation. And if you compare his level of communication and involvement with backers to Ringbow, I think that's demonstrably true. So it seems the overlap between the two projects is largely incidental anyway.

I guess Saar could be a moustache-twirling villain and it's all an elaborate lie to get your $20, but that seems ridiculously unlikely.

Just my 2 cents.
24 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jez Overton
United Kingdom
Bedford
Bedfordshire
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm definitely keeping my pledge. I agree with Richard that it seems there is a very vocal minority who are upset over Ringbow and are now trying to discredit and stop The Agents (despite saying the contrary on the Agents KS page). The Agents has been a very well run campaign with P&P available from day one and a reluctance from Saar to add unrealistic stretch goals. Plus if Ringbow was such a scam, why set up another KS with your own name when it's so easy to hide behind a new company name?

Saar admits he should have maintained control with Ringbow (which he apparently lost). I think everyone deserves a second chance.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gragle
Ireland
Galway
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
brattle wrote:
I'm definitely keeping my pledge. I agree with Richard that it seems there is a very vocal minority who are upset over Ringbow and are now trying to discredit and stop The Agents (despite saying the contrary on the Agents KS page). The Agents has been a very well run campaign with P&P available from day one and a reluctance from Saar to add unrealistic stretch goals. Plus if Ringbow was such a scam, why set up another KS with your own name when it's so easy to hide behind a new company name?

Saar admits he should have maintained control with Ringbow (which he apparently lost). I think everyone deserves a second chance.


Agreed. That the art is there, and the P&P available from the start, reduces the notion of risk for me. I'll certainly follow this story as it unfolds, but keep my pledge as-is for now.

p.s. However, thanks for bringing this to our attention, Joel.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Saar Shai
United States
BRONX
New York
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi all.

I wanted to chime in here to invite anyone who has any concerns about The Agents to continue to ask me any questions. I am 100% transparent and will share with you everything that I'm doing.

I hope that you can see that my own personal management of this campaign and this product is very different from Ringbow, which I did not run myself.

As I mentioned in my message to my backers, what has happened with Ringbow breaks my heart and saddens me every day. That said, I don't believe that Ringbow is over. From what I can gather, Efrat is still working hard to produce the units and deliver for our backers.

Hardware is a completely different beast from producing a deck of cards. Unfortunately, building such a complex product is tricky. And I guess trickier than could have been anticipated.

I am not hiding. There is no scam. I am the inventor of Ringbow, though not the CEO of the company. The Ringbow project was created by my partner, and I am 100% open about who I am as the creator and owner of The Agents. In fact, my own personal facebook account is attached to the project!

As I mentioned, please don't hesitate to ask me anything, and I'll answer completely truthfully and as best as I can.

Thanks,
Saar
45 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evan Gleason
United States
Bowdoinham
Maine
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think it would be more helpful to post a discussion thread in the vein of "I heard this does anyone else have concern?" rather than the "I pulled my pledge and you should too" vibe that I'm getting. I like the information here but it's presented in a way to try to convince others to drop funding for a very awesome looking product. Just my thoughts.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Eddy
United States
Coeur d'Alene
ID
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
IslandEvan wrote:
I think it would be more helpful to post a discussion thread in the vein of "I heard this does anyone else have concern?" rather than the "I pulled my pledge and you should too" vibe that I'm getting. I like the information here but it's presented in a way to try to convince others to drop funding for a very awesome looking product. Just my thoughts.


Inaccurate. I pulled my pledge, cited sources, and said "YMMV" which means Your Mileage May Vary.

The artist has chimed in on the project comments for what it's worth. The comment seemed legit. I'm still holding my pledge back. I thought there was some other discussion generated. And, to be 100% fair to myself, there had been ZERO response from the project creator, who coincidentally posted what seemed to be a few minutes after I posted. It seemed like a post that he carefully crafted for at least more than a few minutes, so that's a good sign.

I just have a zero tolerance when it comes to this stuff. Sorry for the inaccurate vibe that the internet tends to create. I do hope the game succeeds so I can buy it after the fact.
16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evan Gleason
United States
Bowdoinham
Maine
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
eekamouse wrote:
IslandEvan wrote:
I think it would be more helpful to post a discussion thread in the vein of "I heard this does anyone else have concern?" rather than the "I pulled my pledge and you should too" vibe that I'm getting. I like the information here but it's presented in a way to try to convince others to drop funding for a very awesome looking product. Just my thoughts.


Inaccurate. I pulled my pledge, cited sources, and said "YMMV" which means Your Mileage May Vary.

The artist has chimed in on the project comments for what it's worth. The comment seemed legit. I'm still holding my pledge back. I thought there was some other discussion generated. And, to be 100% fair to myself, there had been ZERO response from the project creator, who coincidentally posted what seemed to be a few minutes after I posted. It seemed like a post that he carefully crafted for at least more than a few minutes, so that's a good sign.

I just have a zero tolerance when it comes to this stuff. Sorry for the inaccurate vibe that the internet tends to create. I do hope the game succeeds so I can buy it after the fact.


It's a knee-jerk thread that will inevitably convince some folks to not back a project. There's nothing wrong with that necessarily but to call my post "inaccurate" is off the mark. As I said, there is a discussion to be had but with a title like "pledge pulled..." you are begging folks to read your post. When your post is read, many folks will read the first few posts and leave with an impression in their head that things are not necessarily how they really are. You have made a provocative post and, while I think this should be discussed, I don't think it should be approached in such a provocative way. YMMV.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Eddy
United States
Coeur d'Alene
ID
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Who is stopping discussion? There are at least two or three poss disagreeing with mine that are well thought out and reasoned.

I stated my take. They stated theirs.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tucker Took
United States
Louisiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
For anyone considering the risk of this. The full artwork has already been done, save the backer created content that the Kickstarter offers. Saar has paid out of pocket to get this project started off right to avoid the issues of his last. I have the full print and play files already and this is an amazing game. Saar designed a purely card based game solely for its easy to produce, and his genius shines through. The only thing finding out about the ringbow debacle did in my mind was to make me further appreciate the kind of man Saar is. Once the Ringbow does finally hit shelves I am so buying one. Come on that's awesome. This game too is amazing.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
LucCros
Canada
Oakville
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
eekamouse wrote:

The artist has chimed in on the project comments for what it's worth. The comment seemed legit.


Everything does seem more legit with the apology and the artist chiming in.
But the artist also said he quit his job to focus completely on this project. Yes the project is becoming increasingly successful but how is that a smart career move? We see this all the time on the investment shows, Dragon's Den and Shark Tank, and I just feel sorry for those people. The game looks good so I wish for all the best for the creator and artist through the success of this project but it is hard for me back a team with that mind-set: "We gave it all up, but this will be great, fund our future!" That's kind of what I read. Just my 2 cents. YMMV.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Ham
Malta
Marsalforn
Gozo, Malta
flag msg tools
badge
CLICK THIS BEAGLE if you're looking for in-depth gameplay video run-throughs! :)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
anextiomarus wrote:
But the artist also said he quit his job to focus completely on this project. Yes the project is becoming increasingly successful but how is that a smart career move?

Well maybe he hated his job, and he's quitting it to become a freelance artist, and this is his first gig?
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
LucCros
Canada
Oakville
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
rahdo wrote:
anextiomarus wrote:
But the artist also said he quit his job to focus completely on this project. Yes the project is becoming increasingly successful but how is that a smart career move?

Well maybe he hated his job, and he's quitting it to become a freelance artist, and this is his first gig?


I hope you are right. But quitting your job at 28 to only receive one months pay over the span of eight months...you are putting all of your eggs in the "I hope this is an extremely successful kickstarter project so other publishers pick me up" basket. It seems like an very risky career choice.
You could say the spirit of Kickstarter is about risk and reward, but if this project had sunk like a tonne of bricks, that's eight months without income and nothing to show for it.

It just doesn't seem logical to me and it is hard for me to fund a team surrounded by controversy and illogical decisions.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Speicher
United States
Potomac Falls
VIRGINIA
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
i find it funny. This project seems legit. I can remember at least one other project in the past 6 months that got hammered by folks here, the funny thing is that by spreading rumors, which is what much of what is going on, then it hurts those we say we're trying to protect. If the project continues to do well the artist does better and will be better rewarded. It's a catch 22. I personally wish i'd quit my job at the age of 28 and pursued what I'm doing now, would have saved about 5 years of my life, but those are lessons everyone learns differently. I'd say stop the spread of gossip/rumor mill, and if you decide to not support, that's fine, support the project, that's fine, just don't go smearing folks names.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jez Overton
United Kingdom
Bedford
Bedfordshire
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The artist stated that he quit his job after he'd seen the Kickstarter blast through its target and pledge goals in a few hours. There have been lots of positive comments about the art from most quarters. Doesn't seem that illogical to quit your day job when you've got great feedback and you know the project is a success.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
LucCros
Canada
Oakville
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The artist said these points himself, so I am not spreading rumors or trying to smear his name. Those were his comments not mine. I was giving an opinion, I think that is the point of threads such as this.

Perhaps I misread but I thought he had quit eight months prior to pursue this project which obviously could not have been predicted to be a success. My apologies to him if I misunderstood. Still doesn't seem logical to take an eight month pay cut when the project will now be an obvious success. Performing a favor is one thing, losing that much financial support is another.

The artwork is great, and like I said I wish nothing but success for these guys but that is the only form of pledge they will receive from me in that regard. I will leave it at that.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evan Gleason
United States
Bowdoinham
Maine
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
brattle wrote:
The artist stated that he quit his job after he'd seen the Kickstarter blast through its target and pledge goals in a few hours. There have been lots of positive comments about the art from most quarters. Doesn't seem that illogical to quit your day job when you've got great feedback and you know the project is a success.


The artist was also quick to point out that he wasn't quitting entirely because of The Agents but so much additional work came from the success of the agents that he didn't have time to complete it all. I think he made a business decision, not really the same as "take this job and shove it!"
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Hood
United Kingdom
Coventry
flag msg tools
badge
Microbadges by request, geekmail me for details!
Avatar
mb
TheAgents wrote:
Hi all.

I wanted to chime in here to invite anyone who has any concerns about The Agents to continue to ask me any questions. I am 100% transparent and will share with you everything that I'm doing.

I hope that you can see that my own personal management of this campaign and this product is very different from Ringbow, which I did not run myself.

As I mentioned in my message to my backers, what has happened with Ringbow breaks my heart and saddens me every day. That said, I don't believe that Ringbow is over. From what I can gather, Efrat is still working hard to produce the units and deliver for our backers.

Hardware is a completely different beast from producing a deck of cards. Unfortunately, building such a complex product is tricky. And I guess trickier than could have been anticipated.

I am not hiding. There is no scam. I am the inventor of Ringbow, though not the CEO of the company. The Ringbow project was created by my partner, and I am 100% open about who I am as the creator and owner of The Agents. In fact, my own personal facebook account is attached to the project!

As I mentioned, please don't hesitate to ask me anything, and I'll answer completely truthfully and as best as I can.

Thanks,
Saar


This is why I'm happy to stay on board with this project. Everything Saar has said so far rings true, especially the part about hardware being difficult (there are plenty of crashed ks hardware projects to attest to that).

If he was deliberately trying to avoid being connected to the previous project he'd have probably had someone else create the account in their name. Likely the reason he didn't immediately respond to the questions when they arose is because he had more sense than to be drawn into a public debate with a handful of angry people, but instead wanted to put out a more measured response, which he has (then again maybe it's just difficult to talk about). So far I've been hugely impressed with the way this campaign is being run, Saar is constantly in the comment thread giving updates or answering questions. Some of the bigger or more established games companies could take a leaf from his book (I've seen plenty of campaigns where a week has gone by without a peep out of the people running it).

Maybe I'll get burned, and if it was a $150+ miniatures game I'd be a lot more worried, but $30ish is a price I'm willing to pay to take a chance on this panning out as promised, because so far it looks amazing.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.