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Subject: Egypt? rss

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Michael Mifsud
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Is there an option/expansion or similar game that has some ancient Egyptian related battles?
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Dom Rougier
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There are some fan-made scenarios of good quality which go all the way back to Kadesh - the rules seem to work fine with massed chariots, and produce games which are sufficiently distinct from Ancient Rome to be satisfying.

http://www.ccancients.net/Maps/New-Kingdom-Egyptian-Dynastie...
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Kent Reuber
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Not yet. Many of us have been clamoring for biblical-era armies. There are a few biblical era scenarios on CC Ancients: http://www.ccancients.net/Maps/index.html
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Kevin Duke
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Biblical appears to be the top of the list, as far as future CCA is concerned, but I've heard nothing about a time line.

The GMT/Borg push has been on for Austrians (very soon) and Prussians (coming) in the Nap version. Possibly after that, and before they get into Epic Nap, they will take a breather and give us more ancients-- but that is only speculation.
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I saw "biblical era" and "biblical battles" used a lot here. What does that mean exactly? Anything from early bronze age to year 0? I'm guessing we're talking historical battles only.
 
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Squeak 'n' Squawk
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twitten wrote:
I saw "biblical era" and "biblical battles" used a lot here. What does that mean exactly? Anything from early bronze age to year 0? I'm guessing we're talking historical battles only.

I tend to assume it means anything in the Near East before Herodotus, i.e. before the rise of the Persian Empire, and thus before the Greek-Persian Wars, Peloponnesian War, and rise of Rome.
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Max DuBoff
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It is worth noting that there are at least one or two battles with the general Ptolemy, but I know that's not what you were looking for.
 
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Mark McG
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twitten wrote:
I saw "biblical era" and "biblical battles" used a lot here. What does that mean exactly? Anything from early bronze age to year 0? I'm guessing we're talking historical battles only.

The Age of Chariots in the Ancient Near East might be a better description.
The Hittites, the Egyptian New Kingdom, Elam and Babylon. Roughly 1800-1100 BCE
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Squeak 'n' Squawk
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Minedog3 wrote:
twitten wrote:
I saw "biblical era" and "biblical battles" used a lot here. What does that mean exactly? Anything from early bronze age to year 0? I'm guessing we're talking historical battles only.

The Age of Chariots in the Ancient Near East might be a better description.
The Hittites, the Egyptian New Kingdom, Elam and Babylon. Roughly 1800-1100 BCE

I think "Biblical" includes a lot later time than that - up through the Neo-Assyrians at least. To about 600 BC.
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BrentS
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MD1616 wrote:
It is worth noting that there are at least one or two battles with the general Ptolemy, but I know that's not what you were looking for.

There was 3000 years of dynastic Egypt and warfare almost certainly extended back long before that into prehistory, so considering "Egyptian warfare" as a discrete entity is not really meaningful. I think when most people talk Egypt in terms of warfare, they are actually thinking the New Kingdom (roughly 16th to 11th centuries BCE).

A millennium later, Ptolemaic Egypt was culturally Hellenistic, at least at the elite and military level, and tactically and operationally owes more to Alexander than it does to Thutmose III or Rameses II.

Brent.
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BrentS
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chuft wrote:
Minedog3 wrote:
twitten wrote:
I saw "biblical era" and "biblical battles" used a lot here. What does that mean exactly? Anything from early bronze age to year 0? I'm guessing we're talking historical battles only.

The Age of Chariots in the Ancient Near East might be a better description.
The Hittites, the Egyptian New Kingdom, Elam and Babylon. Roughly 1800-1100 BCE

I think "Biblical" includes a lot later time than that - up through the Neo-Assyrians at least. To about 600 BC.

We've discussed this before and came to the conclusion that biblical warfare is not that useful a term. It has no apparent scholarly basis and certainly doesn't seem to exist outside wargaming.

Taken at face value, biblical warfare is any military activity occurring among peoples mentioned in the Bible and in particular involving the Hebrews and the kingdoms of Israel and Judea. This extends from the early bronze age through such widely divergent domains as New Kingdom Egypt, Philistines (Sea People), the neo-Assyrians, neo-Babylonians, Persians, Seleucids (including the Maccabean revolt) right through to Imperial Rome. Again, this doesn't seem to be a distinctive or meaningful classification, particularly in gaming terms.

I'm pretty sure that what most people are thinking of when talking biblical era warfare is the late bronze age in the near east (the Age of the Chariot as Mark points out), ending in the cultural cataclysms of the 12th and 11th centuries, the dark age which swept most of the prominent cultures away.....New Kingdom Egypt, Hatti, Mitanni, Kassite Babylonia, Middle Assyria and Elam. These empires were linked in what has been described as the Club of the Great Powers or the Brotherhood of Kings, as there was mutually recognised status among the rulers who actually called each other "brother" as documented in surviving texts, such as the Amarna letters dating from New Kingdom Egypt, which shed light on a fascinating level of both diplomatic and military interaction.

This seems to be a far more cohesive, manageable and meaningful classification for historic and gaming purposes, whether it be called the Late Bronze Age, the Age of the Chariot, the Club of the Great Powers or the Brotherhood of Kings.

Brent.

Additional: Mycenaean Greece was chronologically part of this world but not culturally or militarily, at least until the cataclysm, to which they were almost certainly a contributing agent.
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Orion J.N. Winder
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I believe gamin' the "Age of the Chariot" would be good in this system. Would jump on at least, and give it a whirl. Would be a nice expansion for CC:A, and I like the tone and "catchphrase".
 
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Robin Reeve
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goshublue wrote:
We've discussed this before and came to the conclusion that biblical warfare is not that useful a term. It has no apparent scholarly basis and certainly doesn't seem to exist outside wargaming.
As we are on a wargame forum, the term is quite appropriate.

If one considers that the Hebrew Bible covers events from 19th (Abraham) to 5th century BC (Malachi)*, "biblical age" is quite a convenient way to evoke a long period, where Egyptian, Hittites, Assyrians, Neo-Babylonians, People of the Sea, Hebrews, etc. had clashes.

The main difficulty, for elaborating scenarios for battles of that time, is the lack of precise data - and, quite often, if there is data, it is only one sided.

*Taking here the conservative, traditional datations - of course, there is considerable debate on those questions, essentially due to the fragmented, incomplete data that archaeologists and historians try to put together.
But there is scholarly basis for the traditional datations - whether contestable or not.
One just has to consider that, more one goes far into the mists of the past, less one will find uncontestable archeological data.
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BrentS
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Robin wrote:
goshublue wrote:
We've discussed this before and came to the conclusion that biblical warfare is not that useful a term. It has no apparent scholarly basis and certainly doesn't seem to exist outside wargaming.
As we are on a wargame forum, the term is quite appropriate.

I wasn't arguing its appropriateness, just its utility. I would contend that it is too broad and vague in terms of time, place and military theme to meaningfully define a rule set or group of scenarios. "Biblical" certainly has meaning, just not as a definition of a coherent warfare theme.

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The main difficulty, for elaborating scenarios for battles of that time, is the lack of precise data - and, quite often, if there is data, it is only one sided.

Absolutely. It is not until the Greeks that we have the battle narrative .....everything before that will always be based on educated guesswork.

Brent.

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Michael Mifsud
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Yes I am thinking Biblical time frame but specifically Thutmosis onwards to Assyria and Babylon. If done right its a nice way to show the difference between an ancient chariot heavy army and something like the phalanx and Roman legions etc. I specifically want it to supplement history lessons for my kids.

Thanks all for the info. I didn't even know they were still had expansion plans for these games.
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Martin S
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Here's one thought. I've never been comfortable with the "Mix 'n' Match" approach to history through miniature rule slike DBM. I'm not interested in how an Egyptian army of Rameses II might perform against the armies of Alexander, Hannibal or Caesar.

So a C&C:A expansion with stand alone historically-based scenarios would suite me just fine.
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Guillaume Gleize
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Agree with you Martin. If the Egyptians Pharaonic troops had to fight in the Eastern front in 1942, They would just had to lurn quickly how to use the MG42!



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Robin Reeve
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I believe that the oldest elaborate description of a battle is the Battle of Megiddo (15th century B.C.).

About the Egyptians and the evolution of weaponry, they would have dreamed to just know what is a horse, when they were invaded by the Hyksos (17th-16th century).
 
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BrentS
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Robin wrote:
I believe that the oldest elaborate description of a battle is the Battle of Megiddo (15th century B.C.).


The inscription at Karnak describing Tuthmose III's Megiddo campaign is history's earliest surviving descriptive account of a battle but it is still not a battle narrative .....meaning that the tactical battle itself is not recounted in any detail. Typical of its time, it is really more panegyric than comprehensive account. It certainly provides wonderful background never provided for any battle before, including the political antecedents of the campaign, troop movement, insight into the strategic decision making of Tuthmose, the deployment of forces and the result, but the account of the battle itself is typically lacking in detail......the Egyptians charge and the Syrians break and flee.

Having said that, there is enough detail to at least attempt to construct a scenario, which I did here (and an Epic version here). It's an attempt to model what scant information is available about the tactical details of the battle (design notes are here)......making no claim to its real historicity or play balance.

Brent.
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Robin Reeve
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Historical detail is usually difficult to find for most of Ancients' battles, as most sources are from one side only (and propaganda reasons tend to twist the truth).
So, anyway, we are playing approximations of what really happened.
What I liked, in the GBoH series, were the variant set ups, which took in account differing sources.
 
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José Antonio Rivero
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Quote:
There are some fan-made scenarios of good quality which go all the way back to Kadesh - the rules seem to work fine with massed chariots, and produce games which are sufficiently distinct from Ancient Rome to be satisfying.

http://www.ccancients.net/Maps/New-Kingdom-Egyptian-Dynastie...

I am very interested in playing a battle like Kadesh with all those heavy and light chariots running around the battlefield. Unfortunately the link above seems to be broken, does anyone know where I can get to those files with the Kadesh scenario? Thanks
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Miguel [working on TENNISmind]
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This is a more recent one:

https://www.commandsandcolors.net/ancients/maps/38-new-kingd...
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