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Subject: Essen SPIEL 2013 no shipping math trade discussion thread rss

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Ben P.
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Welcome to the no shipping math trade for attendees of the Internationale Spieltage SPIEL'13 (24.10.2013 - 27.10.2013) in Essen!

The trade list including all the rules can be found here:
Essen SPIEL 2013 no shipping math trade

There is a request list where you can add games that you would like to see offered in this trade:
Essen SPIEL 2013 no shipping math trade request list

If you don't want to keep up with this discussion thread, please subscribe to the annnouncement thread in order to not miss any important posts:
Essen SPIEL 2013 no shipping math trade announcement thread


Most important changes (I'd like to say improvements) compared to last year's trade:

1. The item limit is 25 items per user (paragraph 2d). Last year we ran into some technical difficulties due to the huge amount of items. For example, there were BGG timeouts while trying to resync with OLWLG and I still don't know if the messed-up descriptions in OLWLG were also caused by this in the process. Single users had up to 170 items in the 2012 trade. While I greatly appreciate such dedication, it turned out that this amount of items simply is not manageable in OLWLG.

2. No money offers, no money offer substitutes and no virtual goods this year (paragraph 2b). There are plenty of other math trades for those items. Spend your money on new games in Essen and let this trade be about real goods only.

3. Last year, there was some confusion caused by reruns of the trade because I neglected to explain the procedure beforehand. This is why paragraph 1c is in place now.

4. Due to the length of the discussion thread with more than 300 posts last year, some users missed important updates. This is why I created a separate announcement thread this year which will hopefully contain important posts only.

5. We will need a new place for our daily trade meeting since hall 4a will not be accessible anymore. The Galeria will be open so my suggestion is to meet at one end of the Galeria.
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Lucian Pleianu
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I am not sure if stopping money offers is a good idea. There were enough people last year happy to receive money offers in hand at the fair, which allowed them to spend those money straight on the Essen Hotness goodies.

After all these are your rules, but I don't think it will bring much benefit to the overall Math Trade success. In all Math Trades I've taken part in, the money offers are between the most sought after items, which in turn means more possible trades overall.

Good luck with the trade anywayz, I think this is the biggest Math Trade every year.
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Seba J
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Thanks Benjamin for your dedication and time!
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jan w
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Chuckila wrote:
I am not sure if stopping money offers is a good idea. There were enough people last year happy to receive money offers in hand at the fair, which allowed them to spend those money straight on the Essen Hotness goodies.

After all these are your rules, but I don't think it will bring much benefit to the overall Math Trade success. In all Math Trades I've taken part in, the money offers are between the most sought after items, which in turn means more possible trades overall.

Good luck with the trade anywayz, I think this is the biggest Math Trade every year.


I agree. I like to get rid of games for money rather than more games. It's used in other math trades all the time. I don't see why money should be banned?? Especially given that this is the only non-shipping math trade, I feel strongly about having money as an option.
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Lisa
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Losheim am See
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First many thanks for organizing the Essen Mathtrade. But no money offers. :-( Why this?
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David
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cuazzel wrote:
5. We will need a new place for our daily trade meeting since hall 4a will not be accessible anymore. The Galeria will be open so my suggestion is to meet at one end of the Galeria.

Sounds good to me. I've only been there once but I remember it being pretty open compared to the rest of the fair. So it should be easy to meet up. But which end are we talking about?
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Karsten
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kronik wrote:
Chuckila wrote:
I am not sure if stopping money offers is a good idea. There were enough people last year happy to receive money offers in hand at the fair, which allowed them to spend those money straight on the Essen Hotness goodies.

After all these are your rules, but I don't think it will bring much benefit to the overall Math Trade success. In all Math Trades I've taken part in, the money offers are between the most sought after items, which in turn means more possible trades overall.

Good luck with the trade anywayz, I think this is the biggest Math Trade every year.


I agree. I like to get rid of games for money rather than more games. It's used in other math trades all the time. I don't see why money should be banned?? Especially given that this is the only non-shipping math trade, I feel strongly about having money as an option.

Same here. My shelves are full of games, and over the last weeks it became apparent that I have way too many of them. I'd like to get rid of them if possible, too, without something else taking up the space. It came as a surprise to me that money offers are banned now. I guess I'll have to add a disclaimer that people can offer me money for my items outside of the Math trade, too, otherwise I'll have to auction them off.
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Marco Keja
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My guess is that the eastern end (next to hall 4a) is easiest. The western end is next to an entry where we might be blocking the way. Remembering the fun chaos we managed to create last year being somewhat out of the way is advisable I think.
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I would also like for money offers to be possible. With the usual shipping Math Trade, shipping costs are a big factor. Here is one of the few opportunities to trade without both trading partners having to take these costs into account.
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Andrew Rowse
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I would like to request that the rule against money offers be amended, if not reversed.

If the issue was a perception that there were too many money items, perhaps the rule could be changed to a limit of one money item per user?
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Marcel Sagel
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I would also like to see money orders allowed. I won't put them up myself, but I'd be happy to accept them.

Either way, thanks a lot Benjamin for taking the time to organize this trade!
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Ben P.
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I know some of you miss those money offers dearly but it all comes down to cutting down on that huge number of items we had last year. We obviously reached some kind of limit of what BGG/OLWLG can handle.
On the one hand I don't want to push our luck any further with this but on the other hand I have to expect more users participating than last year. When you do something regularly and it's popular, it tends to grow - which is great. But it also still needs to work.

So I tried to cut where it doesn't hurt too much:

- Number of items per user: The average 2012 Essen Trade participant had about 17 items listed. 25 users had more than 25 items listed (myself included). Those 25 users will have to live with the limitation but it will allow about 36 additional average users to participate without raising the total number of items.

- Money offers: You know that I am pro money offers but cutting them from this trade was an obvious choice nonetheless for two reasons:

1. This affects even less users than the item limit, only 11 users had entered money offers in the 2012 trade. So obviously spending money in this trade wasn't even that popular - you all just want to get it which leads directly to my second point:

2. The option to sell your games instead of trading them is still very much out there - just don't do it at the one place that is supposed to broker trades. I am watching 5 Essen GeekList Auctions myself - just start your own! There is more than enough time: You can let your auctions run for 2 weeks and still enter the rest of the items in this Math Trade.
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Lloyd
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I think I'll post a Geeklist where everyone can post games they are looking to sell in Essen. That way, there is one central location for everyone to sell/buy games in addition to the maths trade.

In fact, I've done so here!
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Ben P.
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For those looking for individual auction Geeklists:

Essen 2013 collection of lists
European Geeklist auction subscription thread

There is also the monthly European Sellers Auction Geeklist: mid Aug to mid Sept 2013 which will likely have a "mid Sept to mid Oct" incarnation showing up soon.
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Nathan
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What is the overall limit to the number of games that can be put in this trade then? Will I still be able to add then tonight or do spaces fill up quick? - the list is growing rapidly but I don't want to add games now and then edit them with details later.
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Ben P.
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There is no overall limit. It's just that more items means it's more likely to run into trouble (I'm talking about 2500 items and upwards). It's common that many items get added in the first few days and on the first weekend. Then it will slow down considerably for almost two weeks and most items will probably be added in the last few days.

You will be able to add items until the last minute of the deadline (in 2.5 weeks).

I fact I'd rather have people add their items a little later and have them stay in the trade than adding a ton of items now but selling and trading half of them before this trade ends (thus cluttering the list with dead and withdrawn entries).
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Yoann
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Hi, it's my first Math Trade. Can I add to the geeklist a duplicate entry?
I've read the rules and nothing is mentionned regarding this point ?
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Karsten
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cuazzel wrote:
2d) The trade is limited to 25 items per user. Items with empty want lists do not count towards this limit (see paragraphs 4a and 4b). Additional items created by using the OLWLG's copies function do not count towards the item limit. Keep in mind that you need to carry all your traded games (and get them to Essen in the first place).

Just so that I understand this right: A person can enter more than 25 items to the geeklist, but the trading algorithm will limit the trades that he is getting in total by 25 maximum trades per person? And a person can make sure that an item is not among them by giving empty want lists?
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Can we sell our spots? I have 24 for sale if anybody wants'em .

Seriously though, can't someone just open a dummy account and just add games infinitely?
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Ben P.
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Etherion wrote:
Hi, it's my first Math Trade. Can I add to the geeklist a duplicate entry?

If you mean a game that someone else is already offering, the answer is yes. That's not a problem, each item has its own ID so it is okay for different people to offer the same games.
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Ben P.
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A skinned math nerd wrote:
cuazzel wrote:
2d) The trade is limited to 25 items per user. Items with empty want lists do not count towards this limit (see paragraphs 4a and 4b). Additional items created by using the OLWLG's copies function do not count towards the item limit. Keep in mind that you need to carry all your traded games (and get them to Essen in the first place).

Just so that I understand this right: A person can enter more than 25 items to the geeklist, but the trading algorithm will limit the trades that he is getting in total by 25 maximum trades per person? And a person can make sure that an item is not among them by giving empty want lists?

You can add more games but the intention is not to abuse it but to allow people to withdraw an item without penalty. The paragraphs about editing and deleting items do have priority here. So if one of your 25 items gets eaten by a giant space wombat before the trade ends, you can mark that item as "Deleted/Withdrawn" and add a new item (Nr. 26) in place of that. The exception is meant for the situations described in paragraphs 4a and 4b. I don't (yet) have a hard rule about this but if someone enters 50 items to gamble on the 25 most popular I can guarantee that this will lead to an exclusion from the trade :)
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Ben P.
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kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
Seriously though, can't someone just open a dummy account and just add games infinitely?

Of course. Like with any other rule in the world, there can be cheating.
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Ben P.
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Kempeth wrote:
cuazzel wrote:
5. We will need a new place for our daily trade meeting since hall 4a will not be accessible anymore. The Galeria will be open so my suggestion is to meet at one end of the Galeria.

Sounds good to me. I've only been there once but I remember it being pretty open compared to the rest of the fair. So it should be easy to meet up. But which end are we talking about?

I'm hoping for a floor plan with some details to show up in time. But like Marco I also think the eastern end (the one previously attached to our meeting point in 4A) should provide enough space. There was a huge gate and I don't imagine this being blocked by anything. (The same gate may be on the other end of the Galeria - I don't remember any details).
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Karsten
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cuazzel wrote:
kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
Seriously though, can't someone just open a dummy account and just add games infinitely?

Of course. Like with any other rule in the world, there can be cheating.
I don't mean to "cheat", but I guess I'll have to resort to multiple "pick X out of Y" offers then.
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Karsten
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cuazzel wrote:
5. We will need a new place for our daily trade meeting since hall 4a will not be accessible anymore. The Galeria will be open so my suggestion is to meet at one end of the Galeria.

Is the Galeria where the food vendors are at? Last year, they were pissed that we used the hall for our activities. Not just by the people who occupied their bar tables without having ordered any food, but by people blocking their display in general. I don't know the new floor plans, but last year I thought that it might have been better to meet up in the unroofed area, as there is more space, no regular booths or service of any kind, and you can get there from anywhere. The weather conditions might be a concern, though, of course.

EDIT: Oh, it's the lengthy hall segment where the chillout and recreation area and the sports area is at. Yeah, that was another choice I saw, too!
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