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Subject: Scenario end and the immobilized ogre rss

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Cole Wehrle
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In the classic Ogre scenario, what, precisely, are the "game end" conditions? Throughout the rules there are references to the game ending when either the victory conditions are fulfilled or a side is completely eliminated but we ran into a situation this morning with an immobilized ogre about 2 hexes from the exit point.

The Ogre had destroyed my CP and all but a handful of my troops when I finally disabled it. Am I required to stay in fight? (the result of which would either be a Complete Ogre Victory or Marginal Ogre Victory) or can I just leave it smoldering with it's few remaining guns? Does it count as "destroyed" in this situation?
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Karl Hiesterman
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Immobilized counts as Destroyed. I think it's in the scenario rules, specifically, but that's from the dim reaches of my memory, so...
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Ron A
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It's an implied Defense victory. From the Ogre DE Quick Start Rules:

7.13.3 Destroying Ogres. An Ogre is not destroyed until all
its firable weapons and tread units are gone. However, a lone,
immobile Ogre is helpless; at that point, the game is as good as over.

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Cole Wehrle
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Ah good to know. The "as good as destroyed" threw me for a loop. Thanks!
 
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Jeremy Fridy
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If you were playing with the Ogre on defense, it would not count as destroyed, for purposes of victory level. Yeah it's not the clearest point.
 
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David Rock

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Cole Wehrle wrote:
Ah good to know. The "as good as destroyed" threw me for a loop. Thanks!

There's a bit of semantics that happens here. If you have any units that can safely sit out of range and NEVER get hit by an immobile Ogre (eg, GEVs running in and out), then you can safely (and accurately) call it done and count up your points to see what specific level you reached. If there is ANY way for the Ogre to still do damage to the defending forces, then it's up to you to decide if you want to call it. It will likely be only a couple extra victory points one way or the other.


Basically, there are four different possible outcomes:
1. Ogre destroys everything on the map and skips back home
2. Ogre destroys the CP, but doesn't make it off the map
3. Ogre doesn't destroy the CP, gets destroyed but only a few defending units left
4. Ogre doesn't destroy the CP, gets destroyed AND the defense still has most of their forces

These equate to:
1. Complete Ogre victory
2. Partial Ogre victory
3. Partial Defense victory
4. Complete Defense victory

The rules actually describe the specifics that dictate each variation, but that's the overview.
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David Damerell
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I just dug out my video box edition. It says:

All defending units destroyed: Complete Ogre victory.
CP destroyed and Ogre exits: Ogre victory.
CP and Ogre destroyed: marginal Ogre victory.
CP survives, Ogre exits: marginal defence victory.
CP survives, Ogre destroyed: defence victory.
CP and 30 attack points of defence force survive: complete defence victory.

I agree that the note about an immobile Ogre is just intended to observe that generally such games can be called immediately - it does not, for example, mean that if the Ogre player moves into range of the CP by ramming a tank, destroying its last tread units, that the game can "be ended at that point".

Hence I don't think the victory conditions cover the case where an Ogre is immobilised undestroyed, but the surviving defenders (who presumably have no GEV or HWZ) are unwilling to engage because they expect they will lose. I think this is an unanticipated case because it is rare to not have a GEV survive, given the way heavies are generally more attractive targets. I think there are two arguments:

One is that eventually an immobilised Ogre will be blown up with a Cruise Missile. Hence, once all defending units are out of range, an immobilised Ogre should be considered destroyed and this case is a marginal Ogre victory.

One is that since the defenders would be destroyed if they engaged, the Ogre is effectively in possession of the field, and this should be counted as an Ogre victory.

In the like case where the CP was not destroyed, these arguments would make the outcome either a (possibly complete) defence victory or a marginal defence victory.

I incline to the first argument; when an Ogre is immobilised and there are no targets in range, count it as destroyed whether or not you have a GEV to hand to administer the coup de grace.

Of course this does raise the spectre of multi-Ogre scenarios where both sides have immobilised Ogres and neither side is willing to engage (at all).
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Todd Pytel
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Isn't it also possible that an Ogre is immobilized before destroying the CP, but still manages to destroy every defender besides the CP itself? It's maybe unlikely (as mentioned, a GEV is likely to survive), but the defender could commit his last couple of units to destroying the final tread points and then get counterattacked by whatever weapons the Ogre still has.
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David Rock

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tppytel wrote:
Isn't it also possible that an Ogre is immobilized before destroying the CP, but still manages to destroy every defender besides the CP itself? It's maybe unlikely (as mentioned, a GEV is likely to survive), but the defender could commit his last couple of units to destroying the final tread points and then get counterattacked by whatever weapons the Ogre still has.


Yes, and that would be:
CP survives, Ogre destroyed: defense victory.

While the Ogre isn't technically destroyed (obviously it still has some weapons available), it's effectively neutralized and the CP is still intact.
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Richard Smith
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Re: Scenario end and the immobilized ogre - Prime Movers
In one of the Space Gamer magazines I recall Steve Jackson saying that if you have an immobilized OGRE, the defense will use a prime mover to tow up a howitzer and shell it to nothing.

I was sorry that the primer mover towing unit didn't make it into the OGRE universe. I made up a couple of my own with hand made counters, but I always wondered what the official unit would be like.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Mike Malley
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That would've been something to request for the BGG sheet.
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Darin Sunley
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Towing rules were in one of Reinforcements or Battlefields. I'm not a huge fan of them, they don't feel quite right to me. They weren't ported into Ogre Miniatures, so that may say something.

That said, looking at the howitzer miniatures, they're nontrivial installations. They don't look towable. I figure they're each 4-5 trucks of material and not less than 4-6 engineering squad-hours to assemble or break down, on par with (at least) a fairly large portable rock concert stage. They're not like an 88 where you can just drop the legs, undog the transportation safeties, and be firing 2 minutes later. (That would be the Light Artillery Drone (LAD) from Ogre Miniatures.)

But yeah, once an enemy Ogre is immobilized on friendly-held land, the normal response would be for everyone to back right off from it, and bring up something (howitzer, gev, missile tank, heck even a hvy will work if all the secondary batteries are gone) and safely pound it to fist-sized shrapnel from a distance, in such a way that there is no risk of additional casualties.

I don't think you can really call the game until the last friendly unit is out of range of an immobilized Ogre's longest ranged remaining gun. If you have infantry adjacent to the Ogre on the firing phase when you hit the last tread unit, and especially if the Ogre has one or more secondary batteries remaining, it will get a few last good licks in before you finish your withdrawal.
 
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Talorien
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
In the classic Ogre scenario, what, precisely, are the "game end" conditions? Throughout the rules there are references to the game ending when either the victory conditions are fulfilled or a side is completely eliminated but we ran into a situation this morning with an immobilized ogre about 2 hexes from the exit point.

The Ogre had destroyed my CP and all but a handful of my troops when I finally disabled it. Am I required to stay in fight? (the result of which would either be a Complete Ogre Victory or Marginal Ogre Victory) or can I just leave it smoldering with it's few remaining guns? Does it count as "destroyed" in this situation?

Hmm, this is a edge case. It's rare for the Ogre to be immobilised when the defender has no units which can safely shoot the Ogre from out of its range.

Technically the defender must keep attacking the Ogre to attempt to destroy it, if players wish to determine the precise victory level (see 1.02; It's already an Ogre victory of some sort, because the CP is destroyed).

The final victory level will be either:

All defending units destroyed: complete Ogre victory

OR

Command Post and Ogre destroyed: marginal Ogre victory

-------------

Note there's a one-in-a-million corner case where BOTH the victory conditions above apply at once (e.g. Ogre rams the last defender, in the process destroying itself by losing its last tread).

I guess we'll just have to call that a regular (not complete or marginal) Ogre victory
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Keith Carter
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Talorien wrote:
Cole Wehrle wrote:
In the classic Ogre scenario, what, precisely, are the "game end" conditions? Throughout the rules there are references to the game ending when either the victory conditions are fulfilled or a side is completely eliminated but we ran into a situation this morning with an immobilized ogre about 2 hexes from the exit point.

The Ogre had destroyed my CP and all but a handful of my troops when I finally disabled it. Am I required to stay in fight? (the result of which would either be a Complete Ogre Victory or Marginal Ogre Victory) or can I just leave it smoldering with it's few remaining guns? Does it count as "destroyed" in this situation?

Hmm, this is a edge case. It's rare for the Ogre to be immobilised when the defender has no units which can safely shoot the Ogre from out of its range.

Technically the defender must keep attacking the Ogre to attempt to destroy it, if players wish to determine the precise victory level (see 1.02; It's already an Ogre victory of some sort, because the CP is destroyed).


What about Rule 7.13.3 Destroying Ogres?
"An Ogre is not destroyed until all its firable [sic] weapons and tread units are gone. However, a lone, immobile Ogre is helpless; at that point , the game is as good as over.
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Andrew Walters
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For thirty five years I've never been happy with that term "as good as" in the victory conditions. Is the game over or not? It's ever really important when you're playing the game: whatever happened, happened, and then you play again. It's probably just me, but "as good as" is for the flavor part of the rules, not the victory conditions.

But I think thing the intent of the rule is that an immobilized Ogre is a dead Ogre.
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David McKenney-Barschall
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While a HWZ might not be mobile, a MHWZ also has more range than an Ogre, and is definitely mobile.

So, figure out if there's a hex a MHWZ can get to at 6 hexes. If so, the Ogre is dead.

If it has no missiles, make that 4-6 hexes, and consider MSL.

If it has no missiles and no main batteries, check for 3-6, and consider SHVY.

If it has no missiles, MBs, or SBs, it's just plain dead -- unless it's on, like, a huge swamp in the middle of the ocean. In that case, it scores 12VP for an offboard cruise missile, and is well and truly dead. How did an Ogre get that far into a swamp, anyway?
 
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Michael Ptak
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I just figured if the Ogre was immobilized with no targets in striking range, and if the Defender has missiles or artillery still there, then when the Ogre move is 0, they fire into infinity and blow it up.

But if there are targets in range, might as well play it out to see how many units the Ogre takes with it.
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