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Battlestar Galactica: The Board Game – Pegasus Expansion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Cally. Too late for Quick Fix? rss

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Bruce Scott
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I tried the search function to help here, as well as the Unofficial and Official FAQs. If answer is there, my search fu is bad.

Two experienced players.
Two relatively inexperienced players.
And me, with this being the first game I played.
The two experienced players ended up as Cylons.

Assertion is made that Cally cannot use her Quick Fix ability after counting the skill card points for a skill check. Not that it can't be done after executing that step in the skill check, but rather that it simply cannot be done if she has calculated the likely result.

This seems pretty untenable to me, but most experienced player was confident in this ruling.

There were no Skill Check Abilities or Consequences.

Cally separated piles into positives and negatives. Counted out the result if nothing got played after the skill check. Commented aloud that it would be failing by a single point.

This skill check essentially decides the game. Immediately Cylon win if fail the skill check. Almost certainly Human win if pass the skill check.

Most experienced player (a Cylon) says it's now too late for Cally to discard a card with Quick Fix.

Thoughts?

Thanks, and sorry once again if this was someplace easy to find.
 
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I took a look and the card, and it clearly says that the ability must be performed BEFORE totalling strength. So, separating it into positive and negative piles and counting out the result before post-totalling interrupts sounds like totalling strength to me, and so I think the ruling that it was too late should apply. Cally could "eyeball" the results and make the decision that way, but this really sounds like totalling, as even the sorting would make it too easy for her to decide and seems to be part of totalling up a score.

That's my interpretation, anyway, based on the fact that the ability clearly and directly says that it is to be done before totalling strength.
 
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Skipbidder wrote:
I tried the search function to help here, as well as the Unofficial and Official FAQs. If answer is there, my search fu is bad.

Two experienced players.
Two relatively inexperienced players.
And me, with this being the first game I played.
The two experienced players ended up as Cylons.

Assertion is made that Cally cannot use her Quick Fix ability after counting the skill card points for a skill check. Not that it can't be done after executing that step in the skill check, but rather that it simply cannot be done if she has calculated the likely result.

This seems pretty untenable to me, but most experienced player was confident in this ruling.

There were no Skill Check Abilities or Consequences.

Cally separated piles into positives and negatives. Counted out the result if nothing got played after the skill check. Commented aloud that it would be failing by a single point.

This skill check essentially decides the game. Immediately Cylon win if fail the skill check. Almost certainly Human win if pass the skill check.

Most experienced player (a Cylon) says it's now too late for Cally to discard a card with Quick Fix.

Thoughts?

Thanks, and sorry once again if this was someplace easy to find.
This would seem to be an Exodus question, not Pegasus.

Looking at the question, the text says the ability is used after cards are revealed at which point the values are known so a provisional result can be worked out. I can't see anything that says you can't do this and don't think it would be enforcible anyway as there's nothing to stop Cally from making a silent count as the cards are revealed.

In the specific case, if the game will be decided on the result, then it makes no sense for Cally not to use the ability anyway discarding the most negative (or most positive if she's an unrevealed Cylon) card even if she does not know the precise count.
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Daimbert wrote:
I took a look and the card, and it clearly says that the ability must be performed BEFORE totalling strength. So, separating it into positive and negative piles and counting out the result before post-totalling interrupts sounds like totalling strength to me, and so I think the ruling that it was too late should apply. Cally could "eyeball" the results and make the decision that way, but this really sounds like totalling, as even the sorting would make it too easy for her to decide and seems to be part of totalling up a score.

That's my interpretation, anyway, based on the fact that the ability clearly and directly says that it is to be done before totalling strength.
I would take totalling strength to mean the final count of the cards. Cally's ability is to remove a card, therefore totalling strength can't take place before she has had the option to use the ability, only a provisional count.
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I think you can, the only condition require that most people forgot is that the skill check has to occur on Cally turn.

I think your experienced player misunderstand the word "...before resolving skill check abilities and totaling strength"

This word that I highlight does not mean that Cally must use Quick Fix before she "manually count" the strength of all cards in skill check.

But it refer to before the "totaling strength step" in skill check.
Otherwise, in your play, if all check cards are revealed, and Cally is a very good at counting and remember number in her head, and did not say it aloud, it will be okay to use Quick Fix? that seem to be too funny rule in this game...

By the way, Cally is in Exodus expansion, not Pegasus expansion. lol
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DaveD wrote:
Daimbert wrote:
I took a look and the card, and it clearly says that the ability must be performed BEFORE totalling strength. So, separating it into positive and negative piles and counting out the result before post-totalling interrupts sounds like totalling strength to me, and so I think the ruling that it was too late should apply. Cally could "eyeball" the results and make the decision that way, but this really sounds like totalling, as even the sorting would make it too easy for her to decide and seems to be part of totalling up a score.

That's my interpretation, anyway, based on the fact that the ability clearly and directly says that it is to be done before totalling strength.
I would take totalling strength to mean the final count of the cards. Cally's ability is to remove a card, therefore totalling strength can't take place before she has had the option to use the ability, only a provisional count.
I'd agree that she can "eyeball" it, but what was done in the game seemed to be a bit too far. Once you start sorting into positive and negative piles, I'd count that as totalling. Any sort of formal or manual "counting up" would count as totalling, in my opinion.
 
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Daimbert wrote:
Once you start sorting into positive and negative piles, I'd count that as totalling.
You'd be wrong:

Rules Page 16 wrote:
4. Shuffle and Divide Cards: After each player has had one
opportunity to play Skill Cards, the current player takes
all Skill Cards from the pile and shuffles them. (The cards
are shuffled so none of the players will know which players
contributed which cards to the pile.) He then deals them
faceup into two new piles. All cards that match a skill type
(color) listed on the Crisis Card are placed in one pile, and
all other cards (i.e., those that do not match) are placed in
the other pile.


5. Total Strength: The total strength (upper left number) of
each card pile is totaled. The total strength of the nonmatching
pile is subtracted from the total strength of the
matching pile, giving a final strength.
Sorting into positive and negative piles is clearly prior to totaling strength.
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Such an argument would never hold water at our table. Cally's quick fix takes place after the skill cards are revealed, and thus are public knowledge. Nothing can reasonably prevent the players from counting what the preliminary total would be without her quick fix; it's just not the final total until after Cally has made her decision.
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Daimbert wrote:
Once you start sorting into positive and negative piles, I'd count that as totalling. Any sort of formal or manual "counting up" would count as totalling, in my opinion.
I agree that "totalling strength" only happens when all cards and effects that affect the result have been resolved. That does not include calculating what the values are. If it would, then Cally would just say after each reveal: "Hold on. Do not start to calculate, I'll first do that in my head and let you know when you can start to do that." That would just grind the game to a halt for no actual reason.

Cally does not need to use Quick Fix blindly! Quick Fix would be useless otherwise, and would not balance Cally's handicap.
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downeymb wrote:
Daimbert wrote:
Once you start sorting into positive and negative piles, I'd count that as totalling.
You'd be wrong:

Rules Page 16 wrote:
4. Shuffle and Divide Cards: After each player has had one
opportunity to play Skill Cards, the current player takes
all Skill Cards from the pile and shuffles them. (The cards
are shuffled so none of the players will know which players
contributed which cards to the pile.) He then deals them
faceup into two new piles. All cards that match a skill type
(color) listed on the Crisis Card are placed in one pile, and
all other cards (i.e., those that do not match) are placed in
the other pile.


5. Total Strength: The total strength (upper left number) of
each card pile is totaled. The total strength of the nonmatching
pile is subtracted from the total strength of the
matching pile, giving a final strength.
Sorting into positive and negative piles is clearly prior to totaling strength.
Fine, but I'm not sure that that changes anything. I just didn't realize that the rules actually specified precisely how to reveal and divvy up cards for a check, but I still think that Cally cannot actually go and count up the strengths of each side, especially not publically, because that would be totalling even by the rules listed here. Again, she can eyeball, but not count.
 
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a1bert wrote:
Daimbert wrote:
Once you start sorting into positive and negative piles, I'd count that as totalling. Any sort of formal or manual "counting up" would count as totalling, in my opinion.
I agree that "totalling strength" only happens when all cards and effects that affect the result have been resolved. That does not include calculating what the values are. If it would, then Cally would just say after each reveal: "Hold on. Do not start to calculate, I'll first do that in my head and let you know when you can start to do that." That would just grind the game to a halt for no actual reason.

Cally does not need to use Quick Fix blindly! Quick Fix would be useless otherwise, and would not balance Cally's handicap.
There are some problems with this logic:

1) Since Cally's ability itself is argued to change the values, then her ability effectively HAS no limit, making it hard to understand why the card explicitly mentioned totalling.

2) It has to be done before Skill Check abilities are done, and since they can impact the total that would immediately contradict the interpretation.

Question: Do skill check abilities include those on skill cards played in? I've never had to worry about it and so never looked it up.
 
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So if I, as cally, the current player, sort the cards into piles, I am forbidden from doing the math as I go?

as everyone else has said, the ability is referring to the formal step of total strength, which happens after all abilities that can mess with the check fire. You are allowed to count the strength along the way... consider if IC was in play! You just aren't officially totalling strength to determine a result until you get to that total strength step.
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Daimbert wrote:
a1bert wrote:
Daimbert wrote:
Once you start sorting into positive and negative piles, I'd count that as totalling. Any sort of formal or manual "counting up" would count as totalling, in my opinion.
I agree that "totalling strength" only happens when all cards and effects that affect the result have been resolved. That does not include calculating what the values are. If it would, then Cally would just say after each reveal: "Hold on. Do not start to calculate, I'll first do that in my head and let you know when you can start to do that." That would just grind the game to a halt for no actual reason.

Cally does not need to use Quick Fix blindly! Quick Fix would be useless otherwise, and would not balance Cally's handicap.
There are some problems with this logic:

1) Since Cally's ability itself is argued to change the values, then her ability effectively HAS no limit, making it hard to understand why the card explicitly mentioned totalling.
I'm not sure what you mean by has no limit, but totalling strength is a step in the resolution of a check and as Cally's ability can change the values, it clearly can't happen before she has had a chance to use it or not. I would actually think that the reference to totalling strength is somewhat redundant.

Quote:
2) It has to be done before Skill Check abilities are done, and since they can impact the total that would immediately contradict the interpretation.

Question: Do skill check abilities include those on skill cards played in? I've never had to worry about it and so never looked it up.
Skill check abilities (including reckless effects from Pegasus) are only those on cards played into the check. Cally's ability has to happen first as if she discards a card with such an ability, that effect will not then happen.
 
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InfoCynic wrote:
So if I, as cally, the current player, sort the cards into piles, I am forbidden from doing the math as I go?

as everyone else has said, the ability is referring to the formal step of total strength, which happens after all abilities that can mess with the check fire. You are allowed to count the strength along the way... consider if IC was in play! You just aren't officially totalling strength to determine a result until you get to that total strength step.
This, I think, would be us starting to vigorously agree. I'm not against "eyeballing". I am against actual formal counting. Now, where that line is drawn is going to be one of the many grey areas in this game, like what you can say about your hand, but I think in principle that there is a line there is pretty clear.
 
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As several people have said, there is no clear difference between eyeballing and counting, and there is no need to be, because counting strength can be done before officially totaling the strength. The designers have stated elsewhere that BSG is not about reaction speed.
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DaveD wrote:
Daimbert wrote:
a1bert wrote:
Daimbert wrote:
Once you start sorting into positive and negative piles, I'd count that as totalling. Any sort of formal or manual "counting up" would count as totalling, in my opinion.
I agree that "totalling strength" only happens when all cards and effects that affect the result have been resolved. That does not include calculating what the values are. If it would, then Cally would just say after each reveal: "Hold on. Do not start to calculate, I'll first do that in my head and let you know when you can start to do that." That would just grind the game to a halt for no actual reason.

Cally does not need to use Quick Fix blindly! Quick Fix would be useless otherwise, and would not balance Cally's handicap.
There are some problems with this logic:

1) Since Cally's ability itself is argued to change the values, then her ability effectively HAS no limit, making it hard to understand why the card explicitly mentioned totalling.
I'm not sure what you mean by has no limit, but totalling strength is a step in the resolution of a check and as Cally's ability can change the values, it clearly can't happen before she has had a chance to use it or not. I would actually think that the reference to totalling strength is somewhat redundant.
Sure, it has to happen before you perform that step. But, then, what counts as performing that step? If that step only happens after everything that had a chance to possibly affect the total has been activated, then there is no need to mention, at all, that it takes place before that step. Yes, it would be redundant AT BEST, and confusingly so. But I think the skill check abilities line trumps that interpretation ...

Quote:
wrote:
2) It has to be done before Skill Check abilities are done, and since they can impact the total that would immediately contradict the interpretation.

Question: Do skill check abilities include those on skill cards played in? I've never had to worry about it and so never looked it up.
Skill check abilities (including reckless effects from Pegasus) are only those on cards played into the check. Cally's ability has to happen first as if she discards a card with such an ability, that effect will not then happen.
But, since a number of those cards impact the total, her ability has to take place before you resolve ANY of them, by the card text. That, then, implies that it would normally take effect before everything that could impact the total has been resolved, making the reasoning here contradictory. Or, to put it more specifically, that the argument is that it can be used up to and including any time where the total might change due to any ability ... unless you have one or more skill cards that have skill check abilities played into the check that might impact the overall total, at which point it can't.

That's why I think the right interpretation is "After she has seen all the cards, but before you resolve the skill check abilities and count up the totals". Thus, again, Cally can "eyeball", but not count. And so, in answer to another post, if Cally says "Wait, guys, I want to count this up before deciding to use my ability or not", that would be outside of the rules and shouldn't be allowed ... but she can count along in her head as the piles are divided up.

If an IC is played, then she can add along with that ... but wouldn't get to see Destiny until those are revealed, and so would still have to remember her IC count and then add destiny to it mentally. She wouldn't get to count it all up again.
 
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Daimbert wrote:
Cally can "eyeball", but not count.
How do you enforce this? What if you have a fast counter?

Unenforceable rules can not be rules.

And like mentioned above somewhere, BSG is not a reaction or dexterity game. You can't decide the result by whoever is faster.
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the first sentence in my earlier post was sarcasm. :-P

Well, it's your game, and you can play how you want, but the designers will tell you that she can count the cards as often and slowly as she wants, because the ability is not what you seem to think. Feel free to submit the question directly to ffg support.
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a1bert wrote:
Daimbert wrote:
Cally can "eyeball", but not count.
How do you enforce this? What if you have a fast counter?

Unenforceable rules can not be rules.

And like mentioned above somewhere, BSG is not a reaction or dexterity game. You can't decide the result by whoever is faster.
It's not like the game doesn't have all sorts of odd, gray areas that allow some people with better memories etc to do better. See, for example, being able to remember destiny and so have some idea, at least, of what colours are going to come up even though the cards are hidden.

From the text, it seems to me that the intent is for Cally to be able to see what cards are played -- required for her ability -- but not to be able to react to the final total. You cannot declare that the check is, say, provisionally passed barring DEs or Cally's ability.

Note that in Exodus there are a number of cases where the total number of cards would leave the total "open", like "Establish Network" or "Red Tape". Enough of those in a check, and you can really start to see a difference between simple "eyeball" counting and actually totaling it all up, and you can enforce it easily enough by simply turning over the cards and saying "Do you want to use your ability?", without giving too much time to stare at it to count it all up and calculate it all out.

Yes, if someone is better at counting up cards they'll have an advantage, but that's not unheard of in this game with the other rules that are in place.
 
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InfoCynic wrote:
the first sentence in my earlier post was sarcasm. :-P

Well, it's your game, and you can play how you want, but the designers will tell you that she can count the cards as often and slowly as she wants, because the ability is not what you seem to think. Feel free to submit the question directly to ffg support.
Sorry, not my game, as I'm not the OP, so we're right in the exact same position: speculating based on the card text and various other things about it. If you had a designer ruling, then I'd feel confident that the designers would side with you ... but, well, since you don't [grin] ...
 
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The "totaling strength" reference is to make clear that Cally's removing a card can influence the outcome of the check. As others have said there is nothing to stop you adding up the scores before using it.
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bayushi_david wrote:
The "totaling strength" reference is to make clear that Cally's removing a card can influence the outcome of the check. As others have said there is nothing to stop you adding up the scores before using it.
Other than the rules quoted at me from earlier:

Quote:
4. Shuffle and Divide Cards: After each player has had one
opportunity to play Skill Cards, the current player takes
all Skill Cards from the pile and shuffles them. (The cards
are shuffled so none of the players will know which players
contributed which cards to the pile.) He then deals them
faceup into two new piles. All cards that match a skill type
(color) listed on the Crisis Card are placed in one pile, and
all other cards (i.e., those that do not match) are placed in
the other pile.

5. Total Strength: The total strength (upper left number) of
each card pile is totaled. The total strength of the nonmatching
pile is subtracted from the total strength of the
matching pile, giving a final strength.
By the rules, Cally's ability has to take place between step 4 and step 5. Meaning that it has to take place before you look at the upper left number of each card pile and add them up, and subtract the non-matching from the matching, giving a final strength. Nothing can stop you from ad hoc noting or, as I call it, "eyeballing" the strength before deciding, but you don't add them up by what her ability says and what the rules here say.
 
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How long should Cally have to decide? Who decides when she's had too much time to "Total the Strength?" Do you have a stopwatch handy? If so, does she get 1 second? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? Does it depend on the math skills of the player?

That seems like a crazy interpretation to me. "Total Strengh" means to determine the final pass/fail result of the check, which you can't do until Cally has decided which card to remove, if any. It doesn't mean you can't do the math on the card values before she decides. As mentioned in another post, BSG is not a "speed math" game (although that might be an interesting variant).
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Carl Bussema
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Lansing
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I'm not in the habit of asking the designers for rulings on ridiculous questions.

But to satisfy people who make ridiculous arguments here, I have asked Tim.

I'll be back with an "I Told You So" in a few days, maybe sooner.
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Robert Stewart
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I'm in the common-sense party on this one - Cally gets to see the cards and have a reasonable time to decide which card, if any, to eliminate, and only then do you process skill check abilities (if any) and proceed to the formal count. Any observations made about the expected outcome of the check, and the possible consequences of removing any given card, as derived information based on public information, are acceptable.

Totaling strength is the formal step of calculating the official total, not any informal calculations anyone may do in the meantime.
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