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Subject: How many armor units do Infantry cost? rss

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Michael Ptak
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I thought about trying to run some CP attack scenarios on the GEV maps and maybe using Fencers instead of Ogres, but if I'm putting together equivalent forces how many armor points does a squad of infantry cost? I didn't see a clear answer in the general setup rules on the scenario book.
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Brian Rayburn
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Generally, one Armor Unit is equal to three squads (one full counter) of INF.

-Brian
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Steffen Eichenberg
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I am referencing the rules of the 6th edition (Designers Edition / kickstarter).

At page 12 of the scenario book, the values of the different unit types are given in term of victory points. 2 VP for one squad, 6 VP for a regular armor unit. So a 3 squads of infantry is worth one armor unit. Marines are worth double (3.02.1 of rules). As you see, 6 VP equals roughly 1 armor unit (they rounded he numbers for the ogres. One Mark I is worth 4 armor units, but 25 VP).

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Karl Hiesterman
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Norsehound wrote:
I thought about trying to run some CP attack scenarios on the GEV maps and maybe using Fencers instead of Ogres, but if I'm putting together equivalent forces how many armor points does a squad of infantry cost? I didn't see a clear answer in the general setup rules on the scenario book.


It is spelled out in the VP value. An Armor point is 6 VP, a single Infantry Squad is 2 VP.
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Andrew Walters
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While you should certainly *start* with 3/1 = 6 vp = 1 AU, there's a reason most scenarios say something like "Defender gets 12 armor units and 20 strength points of infantry." Everything changes if you can take all GEVs or if you "have" to take some infantry. Once you're actually playtesting your scenario tweak as needed.

Frankly, point values are always very crude equivalences.
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Ken
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andreww wrote:

While you should certainly *start* with 3/1 = 6 vp = 1 AU, there's a reason most scenarios say something like "Defender gets 12 armor units and 20 strength points of infantry." Everything changes if you can take all GEVs or if you "have" to take some infantry. Once you're actually playtesting your scenario tweak as needed.

Frankly, point values are always very crude equivalences.


Thank you Andrew for saying so. Many people forget this (in other games) and often think that points are points are points.

Having said that I'd also remind people about the Fuzzy Wuzzy Fallacy and remember to limit any single armor unit to 25% of their force.
 
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Scott Ellis
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Ken at Sunrise wrote:
Having said that I'd also remind people about the Fuzzy Wuzzy Fallacy and remember to limit any single armor unit to 25% of their force.


I wish people would stop trotting this out as gospel. Nowhere in the ODE rules does this guideline appear. The original "fuzzy wuzzy" issue was a bug in the very first edition rules where GEVs moved 4/4 and cost half of what a heavy tank would (so once the Ogre's main battery was gone, it couldn't catch the GEVs). While now GEVs can still stay out of range when the Ogre is down to move 2, if they do then at least some of them will be out of range the next turn when the Ogre advances. In any event, it's not even possible to retain a max 25% ratio with only the original 4 units. Go ahead and try 12 GEVs against a Mark III, you need an average of 45 attacks on treads to stop the Ogre with GEVs, can you do that in time?

The guideline "might" be a little better when designing GEV scenarios to keep someone from fielding all SHVYs or all LGEVs. But then look at Operation Newspaper, which is all LGEVs on one side.
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Ken
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StormCrow42 wrote:
Ken at Sunrise wrote:
Having said that I'd also remind people about the Fuzzy Wuzzy Fallacy and remember to limit any single armor unit to 25% of their force.


I wish people would stop trotting this out as gospel. Nowhere in the ODE rules does this guideline appear.[..]


Sorry I didn't mean to knock over anyone's corn flakes. I know this isn't a rule. But actually I've have found this to be a reasonable and sound principle in many games beyond Ogre/GEV. I was commenting on what Andrew said when he noted the point values are crude approximations; my apologies.

Whether it was to fix a bug years ago or not; most (if not all) war/miniature games units have different abilities that are difficult to perfectly balance with points. So people have found that they can often pick a single type of unit that has either a huge flaw or unbalanced effect which will throw the game one way of the other. This unbalancing effect is (can be) mitigated by a more balanced force of a variety of units.

I apologize again if I wasn't more clear.
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Jeff Johnson
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StormCrow42 wrote:
Ken at Sunrise wrote:
Having said that I'd also remind people about the Fuzzy Wuzzy Fallacy and remember to limit any single armor unit to 25% of their force.


I wish people would stop trotting this out as gospel. Nowhere in the ODE rules does this guideline appear. The original "fuzzy wuzzy" issue was a bug in the very first edition rules where GEVs moved 4/4 and cost half of what a heavy tank would (so once the Ogre's main battery was gone, it couldn't catch the GEVs).


This.

My son's first win with the defense got poo poo'd because of this misconception. It therefore irks me. The little dude won fair and square.
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Norsehound wrote:
I thought about trying to run some CP attack scenarios on the GEV maps and maybe using Fencers instead of Ogres, but if I'm putting together equivalent forces how many armor points does a squad of infantry cost? I didn't see a clear answer in the general setup rules on the scenario book.


The answers above that 3 squads (worth 6 VP) are equivalent to one standard armor unit (also worth 6 VP, e.g. a Heavy Tank) are correct.

Please see the box "Armor Units/Victory Points" on the back cover of the Scenario Book, which mentions this.

The reason it's given as an 'advanced rule' is because a straight up substitution between the two (armor for infantry, and vice versa) may imbalance some scenarios (as some of the responses above have indicated).

A good example of this is the basic Mark III Attack scenario. Due to the lack of cover, and the importance of high movement/good range, and other factors, three infantry are not as valuable as one armor.

I hope that helps!
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Michael Ptak
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Thanks everyone!

Now that I'm looking at that scenario contest, figuring out a rough equivalency of units is a good place to start when arranging forces and quantities available to attackers and defenders.
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