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Subject: Unarmed Ogre overrun against infantry. rss

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Tyrone ..................
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How does it work when an Ogre that has had all of its weapons destroyed enters a space with infantry? The rules show that if the space had been with an armor unit the Ogre would have taken the shots against it and then been able to ram the unit to destroy it but I couldn't see anything that covered infantry with this scenario. Would it basically be that the Ogre takes the, I believe 3 different attacks per squad because of rule 8.05.1, and then just moves to the next hex if there was remaining movement or stays on the hex with the infantry if not? If this is the case then it seems once the infantry player activates they would get 3 more attacks per squad since they were still in an overrun situation with the unarmed Ogre.
 
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Michael Ross
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A Ogre with move points, is never totally unarmed against infantry. The operative word is squish, or well to be fair (with the battlesuits) crunch.
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Tyrone ..................
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But that was the problem. If the Ogre does not have AP guns it can't squish, and the rules specifically stated that an Ogre can't ram infantry in an Overrun. The way the rules seem to be written, if an Ogre becomes unarmed, there is absolutely no recourse against infantry if playing overrun rules. When playing the Ramming rules there was.
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Darin Sunley
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I think it's intentional that infantry are basically invulnerable to a completely defanged Ogre. The infantry power armor suits are extremely nimble, and can even fly and hover for minutes at a time.

Against a tracked vehicle the size of a strip mall, even if it can sprint in a straight line faster than the suit, as long as the suit pilot is still conscious, he ain't getting squished.

Even under the ramming rules, as I recall, Ogres are forbidden from ramming infantry, so the same dynamic applies. Defanged Ogres still can't touch infantry.

In most scenarios, of course, this is completely moot. Nobody ever bothers stripping AP, when a mobility kill and an "Infantry stay away" warning beacon accomplish the same thing several turns quicker.
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Karl Gallagher
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I've done various fiddling with oddball situations. I think the only time it actually made sense to shoot the AP was when an Mk III overran 15 infantry in a town.
 
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Tyrone ..................
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So far it has been an unbeatable strategy to keep my infantry in the rear and use my armor to destroy the Ogres main guns and AP guns, and then move the infantry in to finish the Ogre off when it can't fight back.
 
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Tyrone ..................
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Especially when everything is getting 3-1 or 4-1 odds against AP guns and can quickly destroy them while attacking the other guns and getting 1-1 odds. With the Infantry having 3 ATK basically as they are squaded together they are stronger than I would've thought. Unless I'm doing something wrong.
 
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David Damerell
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rccoll wrote:
So far it has been an unbeatable strategy to keep my infantry in the rear and use my armor to destroy the Ogres main guns and AP guns, and then move the infantry in to finish the Ogre off when it can't fight back.


The difficulty here would seem to be that, since the Ogre has a movement of 3 and the infantry has a movement of 2, it is under no obligation to cooperate with being finished off.
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Russ Williams
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damerell wrote:
The difficulty here would seem to be that, since the Ogre has a movement of 3 and the infantry has a movement of 2, it is under no obligation to cooperate with being finished off.

Oh come on, that wouldn't be sporting at all!

Surely it's against the spirit of the game to rule-lawyer like that and move faster than the infantry just because technically the rules don't disallow it!
 
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Tyrone ..................
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damerell wrote:
rccoll wrote:
So far it has been an unbeatable strategy to keep my infantry in the rear and use my armor to destroy the Ogres main guns and AP guns, and then move the infantry in to finish the Ogre off when it can't fight back.


The difficulty here would seem to be that, since the Ogre has a movement of 3 and the infantry has a movement of 2, it is under no obligation to cooperate with being finished off.


You're assuming the treads haven't already been diminished. As I said the infantry are saved for last. Well, and the Howitzers.
 
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David Damerell
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rccoll wrote:
You're assuming the treads haven't already been diminished. As I said the infantry are saved for last. Well, and the Howitzers.


So without the cooperation of the infantry and with howitzers, plural, in reserve (and hence their cost not available for mobile armour), your armour units have blown all the guns and one point of movement off the Ogre?

Winning at that point isn't the problem. Getting there is the problem.
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Tyrone ..................
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damerell wrote:

Winning at that point isn't the problem. Getting there is the problem.


Exactly. Although, I wonder if there is something up with the grade of the dice in the DE because there are a lot of 5's and 6's rolled with those dice. It seems like way more than normal.

The scenario I was using had a Mark V, which although a larger Ogre, still only has the 8 gun points and 6 missiles, not counting the AP guns. The scenario showed to have 25 units of armor, not 25 strength, 25 units, and even with the 2 SHVY's and the 3 Howitzers taking the actual number of units deployed down because of their deployment costs, the missile tanks were still able to quickly take out the Secondary Batteries while the 3-4 heavy tanks destroyed the 2 points of the Main Battery. After this the missile tanks generally were able to stay out of harms way and quickly destroyed the AP guns due to the great odds against them. Then it was a matter of attacking the treads at the 1-1 odds but getting the units attack value of damage when they hit and the 20 hits needed to go to 2 movement quickly occurred.

I played, originally, with only 25 unit strength for the armor like it is for infantry but someone else posted that this was not correct, so I changed the way I was deploying.

Although, my main question for this thread was just on whether of not the way I thought the Ogre and Infantry behaved together with the Unarmed Ogre was correct and it appears it is.
 
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David Damerell
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rccoll wrote:
The scenario I was using had a Mark V, which although a larger Ogre, still only has the 8 gun points and 6 missiles, not counting the AP guns. The scenario showed to have 25 units of armor, not 25 strength, 25 units, and even with the 2 SHVY's and the 3 Howitzers taking the actual number of units deployed down because of their deployment costs, the missile tanks were still able to quickly take out the Secondary Batteries while the 3-4 heavy tanks destroyed the 2 points of the Main Battery.


The base Mk V. Attack is 20 units of armour, so I don't know what corresponding advantage the Mk. V had to counteract this. However, with 10 points in SHVY and HWZ, that leaves 15 other units; I would expect the Ogre, if it gets into a direct clash with them (an interesting decision on the Ogre player's part given that the Ogre is faster than missile tanks and should try and go sideways to string out the defence), to strive to ruin 6 of their days with missiles before the defence is in range.
 
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David Rock

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damerell wrote:

The base Mk V. Attack is 20 units of armour, so I don't know what corresponding advantage the Mk. V had to counteract this. However, with 10 points in SHVY and HWZ, that leaves 15 other units;


This doesn't sound like you are selecting units properly. Both SHVYs and HWZs cost TWO AUs to purchase. 10 points in SHVY and HWZ would leave you with zero units left.
 
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David Rock

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In case there is any confusion about how to select units, please consider the following:

Armor units (tanks, GEVs, etc) are selected as "Armor Units" (AU). Most cost 1 AU. Larger, heavy damage units (SHVY, HWZ, etc) cost 2 AU per unit.

Infantry, on the other hand, are selected by attack strength; so you get a number of INF that adds their Attack strength (the first number in the attack/range pair). So a 3/1 INF costs 3 attack strength while a 2/1 costs only 2.

So, for a Mark III attack, where the defense gets 12 AU and 20 squads of INF, you could get 12 GEVs (1AU x 12), 6 GEVs (1AU x 6) and 3 SHVY (2AU x 3), 6 HWZ (2AU x 6), etc. In every case, you will have 20 squads of INF, split up however you want.
 
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David Damerell
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granitepenguin wrote:
damerell wrote:

The base Mk V. Attack is 20 units of armour, so I don't know what corresponding advantage the Mk. V had to counteract this. However, with 10 points in SHVY and HWZ, that leaves 15 other units;


This doesn't sound like you are selecting units properly. Both SHVYs and HWZs cost TWO AUs to purchase. 10 points in SHVY and HWZ would leave you with zero units left.


rccoll wrote:
The scenario showed to have 25 units of armor, not 25 strength, 25 units, and even with the 2 SHVY's and the 3 Howitzers taking the actual number of units deployed down because of their deployment costs


This text appeared in the post you replied to. You even deleted it. It might have been wise to read it first. 25 minus 5x2 SHVY/HWZ leaves 15 other units.
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David Rock

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damerell wrote:

This text appeared in the post you replied to. You even deleted it. It might have been wise to read it first. 25 minus 5x2 SHVY/HWZ leaves 15 other units.

I did read it, but missed the context. Sorry.
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David Damerell
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granitepenguin wrote:

I did read it, but missed the context. Sorry.


Thanks. Sorry I was rather grumpy about it.
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David Rock

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damerell wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:

I did read it, but missed the context. Sorry.


Thanks. Sorry I was rather grumpy about it.


No harm, no foul. This is supposed to be fun, remember? :-)
 
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