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Subject: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 2 (submit wantlists) ends on Monday 31th of March rss

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Δημητρης Βασιαδης
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This is the discussion thread for the March 2014 European Maths Trade:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/171214/march-2014-euro...

many thanks to Chris
Christopher Gritt
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for his effort in running this trade for so many years to our benefit.
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Kostas Papathanasiou
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
are rpg items welcome like the previous math trades?
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
Thanks to you for taking it over, too
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
legopaidi wrote:
are rpg items welcome like the previous math trades?
sure!
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Jacob Coon
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
So I've never done a math trade and I'm a bit confused, to say the least. If I have a game to offer I add it to the other geek list right? Then I should create a want list of things I'd be willing to accept for what I've offered?
What do I do if I have a game and expansion to offer, should I offer them together or separate?

Thanks
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Jonathan Challis
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
If this showed up in the last few euro trades and was already discussed, then ignore me - I've not been in a euro trade for about a year. I suspect it's a new change here though...

Quote:
ARBITRAGE

Any kind of arbitrage is strictly prohibited. (In other words, it is prohibited to try to trade your €20 for someone else's €30, or your agricola for agricola + sweetener. If such a "trade" shows up in the trade loops, it will be effectively disregarded and the user responsible will receive a warning)


I completely get the my money for your money - that's standard, and even allowing for different currencies and gift certificates is easy to isolate and understand. GG too if you want to include that.

Counting games as arbitrage strikes me as a very sticky slope, and not a good one however. Where do you draw the line? You don't like my Agricola, for your Agricola with sweetner, but how about my current version of a game for your older version with expansion? How about my Zombies with exp 1-3 for your Zombies with expansions 5-9?

These all seem like valid trades to me, and I have no idea how you write something that includes some and not others. Definitely not as it is above for example...

This is with no agenda, I'm not aware of wanting to do such a trade, although I will say that I have traded like this with/without expansions in the past (for example I want the expansion for Doom and League of Six - almost certainly I will only trade those with the base game, therefore my base games go in the trade pile).

The money arbitrage is normal in every maths trade I've done. I've never seen any attempt at including games under that heading, and it makes me quite cautious...
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
jacobjcoon wrote:
If I have a game to offer I add it to the other geek list right?
Yes. Please describe in detail its condition/edition and your shipping terms.
jacobjcoon wrote:
Then I should create a want list of things I'd be willing to accept for what I've offered?
Yes, however you should wait until monday 24th when we will proceed to phase 2 - submit wants.
jacobjcoon wrote:
What do I do if I have a game and expansion to offer, should I offer them together or separate?
that is your decision.
However, if you decide to put them in one entry, you should use the official bgg format in your description: insert geek link - board game

Agricola: Farmers of the Moor -this is the correct method to insert a sweetener
Agricola: Farmers of the Moor -this is incorrect.

Keep in mind that any game you include in the official bgg link format is considered a part of your pack and you will be asked to ship it along.
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
Consolidating Shipping

Over recent months a German BGG friend has been very helpful to me by receiving items in Germany and then sending them on to me in bulk - with great savings in purchase prices and shipping. I was able to help him by receiving and sending two trades he made to the UK.

I am more than happy to help fellow BGGers in the same way by receiving games here from UK traders and then sending them on in bulk. Have a look at the shipping costs here for an idea of the potential savings: http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1959791/enoon?size=medium

Obviously this works well if you are receiving more than one game (the breakpoint could be as low as two) and works best if you are receiving one of mine as well, since I will pay the first £7 anyway.

No strings, no fees to senders or receivers: you could say thanks in anyway you thought best. I won't even open boxes I receive (unless they are packed in huge boxes when space/weight restrictions would mean it best if they were repackaged).

You would need to take out whatever insurance you thought necessary and of course I would provide full traceability up to the point of handing it over to the courier - from then on it would be at your risk, of course.

If you might be interested it would be great if you would get in contact first towards the end of the offers phase (around 25th March say) just to say you might be interested when you see what is on offer from UK traders, since if a dozen people wanted to do it I'd be swamped!

Anyway, there may be no takers - but if you want to talk about the idea, GM me, even if it's to say it's a daft idea
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
Kelanen wrote:
If this showed up in the last few euro trades and was already discussed, then ignore me - I've not been in a euro trade for about a year. I suspect it's a new change here though...
No, you are correct, this is my wording to include any case where a user offers an exact subset of what he asks. This practice takes advantage of the trade maximizer, allowing a user to get something for nothing:
e.g. I could trade agricola for agricola+sweetener even If I do not own Agricola, and thus keep the sweetener.

It has nothing to do with the values of the games traded. This rule is only applied in a trade where what is offered is a subset of what is asked. Only this way the trademaximizer can be tricked into allowing this null trade, calculating it will get more trades this way.

Kelanen wrote:
how about my current version of a game for your older version with expansion?
I am afraid you are correct in that this is a grey area and would be treated accordingly in discussion (personally I find it a valid trade)

Kelanen wrote:
How about my Zombies with exp 1-3.5 for your Zombies with expansions 5-9?
no problem here, you are not offering an exact subset of what you asked, thus the algorithm cannot be tricked. This is not arbitrage.

Kelanen wrote:
The money arbitrage is normal in every maths trade I've done. I've never seen any attempt at including games under that heading, and it makes me quite cautious...
I think this is the only rule I have added. I am open to discussion. Many thanks for your input.

PS offering a low value item for a high value item is not considered arbitrage and it is allowed as always. The problem arises only when you offer an exact subset.
I will edit the header to include the term "exact subset".
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
Excellent explanation of the problem, the reason for the solution and the extent of the solution - answered all the questions I had about trading eg a 'base game plus separate expansions' for a 'big box version with the base game and same expansions', which would be permitted.
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Lucas Smith
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
Thank you Dimitris for taking over the organisation! Could you sum up the changes you made to the rules? The first one I noticed is that you suggest to change the item to "Outside the Scope of bgg" if removing an item. (good idea) anything else?
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Jonathan Challis
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
I guess for me it's a partial solution to a problem that doesn't exist - I'd prefer things how they were.

It's Dimitris' show though...
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
Kelanen wrote:
I'd prefer things how they were.


Don't forget he did say "... this is a grey area and would be treated accordingly in discussion (personally I find it a valid trade)". It sounds to me that if a circumstance arose where you wanted to do something that might look like "sweetener stealing" you could always check with him first.
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Ruben Rigillo
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
Well done, Dimitris!
Thanks for taking this over!!!
....and thanks to Chris for all his past work...
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Jonathan Challis
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
enoon wrote:
Kelanen wrote:
I'd prefer things how they were.


Don't forget he did say "... this is a grey area and would be treated accordingly in discussion (personally I find it a valid trade)". It sounds to me that if a circumstance arose where you wanted to do something that might look like "sweetener stealing" you could always check with him first.


I'm not. I see the whole thing as a non-problem. Even sweetner stealing or money arbitrage for that matter. The money has hard lines to define though, teh games don't, so better to not do it at all IMO.
 
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
Kelanen wrote:
I guess for me it's a partial solution to a problem that doesn't exist - I'd prefer things how they were.
Jonathan, I sympathize, you are right that this exploit seldom occurs. Thus, practically things are as they were - the subset rule does not affect regular trades. If an exploit trade comes up in the results it will probably have been declared by accident and will easily be bypassed.

smithlucas wrote:
Thank you Dimitris for taking over the organisation! Could you sum up the changes you made to the rules?
Thank you for participating! I did not introduce any other new rules apart the one Kelanen quoted which only affects exotic cases.
I also added that the edition and language of the games offered should be described, but it is my understanding that this was already the norm.
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
Now that our geeklist is up on the
http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/

try the automated way to transfer your items from previous trades into the current one:



After clicking on the icon, select a previous trade from the dropdown list and press submit. Then you can easily transfer the entries of your choice into the current trade by pressing the corresponding buttons. This will save you a lot of time.
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Jonathan Challis
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
Base the Bass wrote:
Now that our geeklist is up on the
http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/

try the automated way to transfer your items from previous trades into the current one:


Oooh... this is fantastic!

This alone will greatly up my maths trade participation!
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
Can I also add that I just discovered you can do the same for games marked "for trade" in your collection. The OLWLG even picks up the 'trade comments' in your collection. It's a wonderful tool. Each time the OLWLG is synced it will also monitor which items you've added top the tradelist so you can see waht you still have left for trade/avoid duplicates.
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
Dimitris,

Excellent tip and also thank you for running this trade.
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Lucas Smith
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
"questions" that arose when working out my offers:
1. Any interest in World War II: Barbarossa 1941: the game is played about 3 times, the models are not built perfectly, but the rest is like-new??

2. Is it allowed to insert an offer like this:

You have 10 points to spend:

4 point items: X,Y
3 point items: A,B,C,D, E
2 points items: F,G,H
1 point items: I,J, K, L, M

(letters stand for items: games and magazines of the "spielbox")

only 1 person will choose, no dependance from other´s decisions!
I assume such an offer would be allowed, provided that the item is changed to "Outside the scope of bgg", an altname is added and shipping/condition/lang. depend. of the items are stated??


3. What about island surchages/oversea departments and similar "shipping unfriendly areas"? Do I have to exclude them when stating "Free shipping to the EU"? I want to avoid paying any extra fees because the receiver lives in a very remote region. Has something like that ever happened before? Could we rely on people telling us before if they live in a "shipping unfriendly area"??
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
smithlucas wrote:
2. Is it allowed to insert an offer like this:

You have 10 points to spend:

4 point items: X,Y
3 point items: A,B,C,D, E
2 points items: F,G,H
1 point items: I,J, K, L, M

(letters stand for items: games and magazines of the "spielbox")

only 1 person will choose, no dependance from other´s decisions!
I assume such an offer would be allowed, provided that the item is changed to "Outside the scope of bgg", an altname is added and shipping/condition/lang. depend. of the items are stated??
IMO yes in all of the above it has been done before.


smithlucas wrote:
3. What about island surchages/oversea departments and similar "shipping unfriendly areas"? Do I have to exclude them when stating "Free shipping to the EU"? I want to avoid paying any extra fees because the receiver lives in a very remote region. Has something like that ever happened before? Could we rely on people telling us before if they live in a "shipping unfriendly area"??
Remember, you have no control on who gets your items.
thus, although it is encouraged to offer free shipping for all europe, be exact in your description if you will exlude areas that your packet service overcharges.
Unfortunately I have no knowledge if a remote area shipping incident has occured in the past.
Also, please clarify in your description the term EU as in european union or EU as in all europe.
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Ben P.
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
smithlucas wrote:
3. What about island surchages/oversea departments and similar "shipping unfriendly areas"? Do I have to exclude them when stating "Free shipping to the EU"?

For easier reference I try to keep the EU shipping Wiki up to date* for Germany (Deutsche Post / DHL). You could refer to the DHL delivery zones listed there.

*no guarantee though - better cross-check with the DHL site from time to time!
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Lucas Smith
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
These are the "shipping unfriendly areas" according to the German parcel service DHL (for small games I use the post)

Greenland (DEN); Faeroe Islands (DEN); The Holy Mount Athos (GR); Åland Islands (FIN); Channel Islands (GB); Livigno (IT); Campione d´Italia (IT); Ceuta (SPA); Canary Islands (SPA); Melilla (SPA); Oversea departments of Portugal, The Netherlands, France, GB; northern part of Cyprus

So don´t be afraid if you live at an island not to far away from the mainland

Should I quote this "blacklist" with every item from now on?
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Re: March 2014 European Maths Trade discussion thread - phase 1 (game offers) ends on Monday 24th of March
I live on a very big island moored off the coast of Europe, but we're not so unfriendly really

We have the same issue with 'Highlands and Islands' too - thanks for reminding me!
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