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Subject: River Crossings and the Game Map rss

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Matthew Hurst
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I'm playing with the family, so it's nothing that cutthroat (yet) but we are having some difficulty with river crossings. Now I'm familiar with the game rule about building track that enters and leaves the same hex sides as the river but I'm also familiar with certain geographic features and I was wondering....

1. On the map, it's possible to build a link of a single piece of track between Cincinnati and Louisville. Does this cross a river? The same goes for Cincinnati and Lexington.

2. You build a 5 track link between Toronto and Detroit. My map appears to have no blue line just east of Detroit. No river crossing here, right?

3. Six track link between Indianapolis and St. Louis or Chicago and St. Louis or Des Moines and St. Louis. River crossing?

I guess what I'm asking is if a city hex is bisected (or trisected) by a river hex, is it considered to be on both sides of the river? If not, you'd have to charge river crossing for track built into certain hex sides of cities.

Many people playing the game won't know about certain geographic features and I suppose I should just relax. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting something.

 
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Rick Holzgrafe
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Zen Postman wrote:
I'm playing with the family, so it's nothing that cutthroat (yet) but we are having some difficulty with river crossings. Now I'm familiar with the game rule about building track that enters and leaves the same hex sides as the river but I'm also familiar with certain geographic features and I was wondering....

1. On the map, it's possible to build a link of a single piece of track between Cincinnati and Louisville. Does this cross a river? The same goes for Cincinnati and Lexington.

No, and no. Those single-tile links can be built for $2,000 each. One follows the river from Cincinnati to Louisville, the other avoids the river altogether.

Quote:
2. You build a 5 track link between Toronto and Detroit. My map appears to have no blue line just east of Detroit. No river crossing here, right?

That's how it looks to me.

Quote:
3. Six track link between Indianapolis and St. Louis or Chicago and St. Louis or Des Moines and St. Louis. River crossing?

If you avoid the hexes where the river enters St. Louis, there's no river crossing involved.

Quote:
I guess what I'm asking is if a city hex is bisected (or trisected) by a river hex, is it considered to be on both sides of the river? If not, you'd have to charge river crossing for track built into certain hex sides of cities.

Since you never place a track tile to cover a city, you don't have to worry about rivers that pass through the city. You only care about rivers that are in hexes where you place a track tile.

Quote:
Many people playing the game won't know about certain geographic features and I suppose I should just relax. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting something.


The "river crossing" rule is not really explained well in the manual, and there is no official errata or FAQ yet. The above is correct to the best of my understanding.

Another interesting question is what happens when you build track through a hex where rivers split or intersect. If you build a seven-tile link from St. Louis to Nashville and "follow the river", what do you pay for the hex where the river splits off in five different directions? You're "following the river" but you're also clearly crossing a fork. I recall seeing a post from Eagle Games (haven't time to look up the citation, sorry!) that says that what you pay extra for is not actually "crossing" the river but rather the change in elevation from the plains to the river valley. This covers the cases where your track joins up with a river then leaves it again, all on the same side of the river: you pay extra for the tiles that join and leave the river, even though your track never "crosses" the river. If this is correct, then I think that you don't pay extra for river forks so long as you continue to follow one of the forks.
 
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Mark Biggar
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rholzgrafe wrote:


Another interesting question is what happens when you build track through a hex where rivers split or intersect. If you build a seven-tile link from St. Louis to Nashville and "follow the river", what do you pay for the hex where the river splits off in five different directions? You're "following the river" but you're also clearly crossing a fork. I recall seeing a post from Eagle Games (haven't time to look up the citation, sorry!) that says that what you pay extra for is not actually "crossing" the river but rather the change in elevation from the plains to the river valley. This covers the cases where your track joins up with a river then leaves it again, all on the same side of the river: you pay extra for the tiles that join and leave the river, even though your track never "crosses" the river. If this is correct, then I think that you don't pay extra for river forks so long as you continue to follow one of the forks.

If you read the rule carefully, they never talk about "Crossing the River" costing extra, they actually say, building in a river hex costs extra, but if the "follow the river" you don't pay the extra. The gloss is that changes in elevation results in the extra cost. The rules define "following the river" as the track on the hex enters and exits the hex on the same edges as the river. As long as this condition is met, you don't pay the extra cost. Therefor, "forks" don't effect this. Note also that in the hex with the river source up by Buffalo, it is impossible to meet these conditions (the river doesn't enter the hex) and you do pay $3000 for that hex.
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Matthew Hurst
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I really appreciate the replies. I enjoy the game immensely and will get over my little geographical hangups.
 
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Nick Szegedi
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Here is the "Official" interpretation on "crossing a river" and to know when to pay, etc.

River crossing: A track is considered to be "following the contour" of a river if it enters the SAME hex-side (line-of-origin) and exits the SAME hex side as the river does. In other words...There are 6-sides to a hex and must enter and exit the SAME sides as the river does to be considered "not" crossing the river. ALL other possibilities are considered to be: "crossing the river" as far as costs of the track.





hope that helps!
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Chad Urso McDaniel
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I appreciate the need for consistent rules. I do have a problem with the second illustration where the river goes 2-4 and the track 1-5. It goes strongly against my intuition.

I suppose it's best to live with that.
 
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colin darra
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Hmmm. Like chad I am unhappy with the interpretation as shown in the above diagrams . While I can see that the "following the contour" diagrams are absolutely clear, I am less inclined to agree with the interpretations of Crossing as depicted.

In the diagram below I have indicated how my group interprets the River crossing rule. In our view those that I have indicated as "Crosses" are very clear, as are those indicated as "Follows Contour".

In my diagram Situation 14 (similar to situation 2 above) we would say is an obvious "No Cross".

That leaves all the others, which to my group are "No Cross" because we reason that the track leaves one hex-side that is nowhere near the river and the other hex-side is coincident with a river - we deem this situation to be NON CROSSING.



Regardless of official rules, and with due deference to holywolfman, we are very happy with this interpretation.
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Jim Cote
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Consider your case 3 followed by case 6. The track clearly crosses the river, yet you aren't paying for it on either tile.
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colin darra
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ekted wrote:
Consider your case 3 followed by case 6. The track clearly crosses the river, yet you aren't paying for it on either tile.

Now that is a good point... and true, it wasn't covered in my example above, and in truth I can't remember if that situation has cropped up in my games. However, if that sitaution arose, where the newly built (multi tile) rail link had clearly crossed the river as you suggest in your post, then I'm sure my group would pay the extra $1000 to the total due for the link. But we would not have paid an extra $1000 for both tiles, which seems likely from the official post (see holywolfman above).

To clarify - see the diagrams below, situation left (situation described by ekted) crosses and therefore incurrs $1000, situation right does not cross, therefore no extra charge.



I realise that my approach requires some interpretation of the rule, rather than the cut and dried, and somewhat less intuitive, "official" view.
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matt tolman
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I used to play like colin, but It seems to make way more sense to just use the official approach. The only reason it's a point of confusion is the poor wording of the official rules, but in practice it's much simpler - enter and exit on the same side? $2000. everything else: $3000.
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Flix
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mopeymatt wrote:
I used to play like colin, but It seems to make way more sense to just use the official approach. The only reason it's a point of confusion is the poor wording of the official rules, but in practice it's much simpler - enter and exit on the same side? $2000. everything else: $3000.
Exactly.

Plus one has to consider that by far not all hexes and rivers are as clear and unambiguous as shown in Colin's charts.
Quite often, even after minutes of debating players could not agree on how to interpret specific (what I call) topological rarities - does the river touch the rails? And on which side of the hex does it leave? And so on...

So even if the official approach may not seem thematically, at least it helps to play a straightforward game on a unregular map...
 
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