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Subject: Infinite symbol and power rss

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Marco Fregoso

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I have an Active +2 River movement (infinite, card 36), with a power of 3.
I play a river movement card (the base one) with a power of 2, using 2 canoes, so I move twice along the river.
now the question is:
- I move 4+6 and again 4+6
- I move only 4+4+6
- other
which one?
thanks
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Scott Seifert
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Edit: I'm wrong, see below.

- In general, the power provided to "infinite" cards does not matter.
- Card 36's entry specifically says that if you power a movement card multiple times, you still only add 2 to the total.

So you'd move 4+4+2 spaces.
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Joel Oakley
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I think the designer has made it clear in the past that the power you use on a card with the infinity symbol DOES matter in fact. For the situation you described, I believe the correct movement is 4+4+6. The bonus movement of 6 is only applied to one of your two movements.
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Marco Fregoso

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louper wrote:
The rules say, "...when you move your Scout forward on the River (thanks to another Character), add 2 spaces to one movement on the River..."

(emphasis mine)

So if you move twice with a single character, you only add 2 to ONE of those movements.

ok, that "one" is clear.
but are you sure the power of the infinite card doesn't matter? I read that's the other card (the movement one) power that doesn't matter.
I believe it should be 4+4+6
 
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Brian McCarty
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I think not
The power is used AND the power is used for each activation.

I think 4 + 6 + 4 + 6 is correct

See
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1084628/boosting-always-acti...
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/13870286#13870286

publisher wrote:
For instance, if Nicholas Jarrot (card n°36 that gives you 2 bonus spaces when moving on the River) has been played in turn 1 with a Strength of 2, and, in turn 2, you play your Commander with a Strength of 1 paying 1 Food, your Scout will move 6 spaces on the River (1x2 + 2x2). And if you play Moses B. Reed (card N°7 that makes your Scout moving 2 spaces on the River paying 2 Woods) with a Strength of 3 paying 6 Woods , you will benefit from the effect of Nicholas Jarrot again: your Scout will move 10 spaces on the River (3x2 + 2x2).



publisher again, quoting Jakub
Quote:
if I play Nicholas Jarrot with strength 2, and the Leader with strength 2 on the following turn (without setting up camp in between, of course), can I move 12 spaces on the river with two canoes {(4+4)+2x2} ? If yes, wow!


Hi Jakub,

Yes you are right. Your scout moves 12 spaces in this case. That is a good move





Brian
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Enon Sci
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Brain McCarty posted this link, but here's a comment from within that link by the publisher that specifically calls out the card the OP inquired about:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14221631#14221631

ludo naute wrote:
Hello,

In Lewis & Clark, when you play a card, you never can play it alone ; you always have to give it a Strength (either with another card or with Indian figures, or with both).

You are allowed to give an infinity card a Strentgh of 1, 2 or 3. Its effect will apply once, twice or three times for each case in which it becomes effective, depending on the Strength. The infinity symbol means that the effect of those cards apply as long as they are visible in your Playing Area.
For instance, if Nicholas Jarrot (card n°36 that gives you 2 bonus spaces when moving on the River) has been played in turn 1 with a Strength of 2, and, in turn 2, you play your Commander with a Strength of 1 paying 1 Food, your Scout will move 6 spaces on the River (1x2 + 2x2). And if you play Moses B. Reed (card N°7 that makes your Scout moving 2 spaces on the River paying 2 Woods) with a Strength of 3 paying 6 Woods , you will benefit from the effect of Nicholas Jarrot again: your Scout will move 10 spaces on the River (3x2 + 2x2).



edit: when I posted this, Brian hadn't added the quotes to the message above. This is now redundant, but still a post he didn't specifically call out (so I'm keepin' it!)..

Now my question with all of this:

When you activate Jarrot you get +2 bonus to ONE movement on the river. When you activate him twice you get a net +4 bonus, but I presume you can now apply that to two separate steps of movement on the river, provided your secondary card was activated twice (one for each activation of Jarrot, correct?). .. of is it only the +2 that gets multiplied, and not the 1 for movement consideration?

This game is deceptively complex.
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Scott Lewis
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That sounds to me like the strength is multiplied, but still only applied once to the entire move action.

So if you move three times with another card, you add the bonus move to the end, not for each of the individual moves.

(IE, the 3x2 + 2x2 is saying 3 strength, for 2 move each, plus 2 strength x 2 move for the bonus; not 3x(2 + 2x2). So a total of 10, not 18).
 
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Marco Fregoso

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N9IWP wrote:
I think not
The power is used AND the power is used for each activation.

I think 4 + 6 + 4 + 6 is correct

See
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1084628/boosting-always-acti...
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/13870286#13870286

publisher wrote:
For instance, if Nicholas Jarrot (card n°36 that gives you 2 bonus spaces when moving on the River) has been played in turn 1 with a Strength of 2, and, in turn 2, you play your Commander with a Strength of 1 paying 1 Food, your Scout will move 6 spaces on the River (1x2 + 2x2). And if you play Moses B. Reed (card N°7 that makes your Scout moving 2 spaces on the River paying 2 Woods) with a Strength of 3 paying 6 Woods , you will benefit from the effect of Nicholas Jarrot again: your Scout will move 10 spaces on the River (3x2 + 2x2).



publisher again, quoting Jakub
Quote:
if I play Nicholas Jarrot with strength 2, and the Leader with strength 2 on the following turn (without setting up camp in between, of course), can I move 12 spaces on the river with two canoes {(4+4)+2x2} ? If yes, wow!


Hi Jakub,

Yes you are right. Your scout moves 12 spaces in this case. That is a good move





Brian

wait Brian, by the examples you gave, the correct movement is 4+4+6 and not 4+6+4+6.
I use Jarrot strength 3 and then a Leader strength 2 with 2 canoes.
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Steve Duff
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The correct rule is actually quite simple - each card gets the power applied to it. That's all the rules are trying to say.

If your movement guy has power 2, and your "bonus movement" guy like Jarrot (card 36) has power 3, then you get 2*move + 3*bonus move.

The wording that's confusing people "the Strength given to the other
Character doesn’t matter" is trying to clarify that you don't get the bonus move of (2*3) twice because you did the 2 strength move.
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Enon Sci
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Agzaroth wrote:

wait Brian, by the examples you gave, the correct movement is 4+4+6 and not 4+6+4+6.
I use Jarrot strength 3 and then a Leader strength 2 with 2 canoes.


Serious question, why wouldn't it be (4+2)+(4+4) ?

Wouldn't the card be turned on multiple times instead of just one portion of the card being multiplied by the activations (like the Interpreter, which when activated multiple times equates multiple complete passes through its sequence)?

So the card gets effectively turned on twice with the action, the first giving +2 and the second giving the remainder (+4 in this case)?

If not, why is the +2 being multiplied but not the 1 related to the number of movement steps it could be applied to?

 
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Joakley815 wrote:
I think the designer has made it clear in the past that the power you use on a card with the infinity symbol DOES matter in fact. For the situation you described, I believe the correct movement is 4+4+6. The bonus movement of 6 is only applied to one of your two movements.


This is the correct answer, and there has been another thread on exactly this topic, where it was made clear by the publisher.
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Anarchosyn wrote:

If not, why is the +2 being multiplied but not the 1 related to the number of movement steps it could be applied to?


Because that's the rules. The card would be too strong if the effect could be potentiated.
 
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actaion wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:

If not, why is the +2 being multiplied but not the 1 related to the number of movement steps it could be applied to?


Because that's the rules. The card would be too strong if the effect could be potentiated.


Can you quote me this rule? I can't seem to find where it says to ignore a numerical portion of a card when multiplying its effect.

Not saying you're wrong, but I'd like to base my judgement on more than faith in a rule you remembered reading once.

*edit: Ok, I'll ditch the Socratic approach. I'm going to go so far as to say this is not in the English language rules at all, as the only example of a non-resource generating card being activated at a strength higher than one is the Interpreter (pg 7), and in this example the full card is activated for each activation.

So, conventionally, we've interpreted card activation as a multiplicative effect, but somebody failed to consider the equally valid possibility that each activation could be interpreted as a separate parsing of the full card per each activation (ala the Interpreter).

PLEASE correct me if I'm failing to see something, because I'm the rules guy in my group (hence my insistence on this issue).
 
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Tyler Bishop
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Anarchosyn wrote:
actaion wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:

If not, why is the +2 being multiplied but not the 1 related to the number of movement steps it could be applied to?


Because that's the rules. The card would be too strong if the effect could be potentiated.


Can you quote me this rule? I can't seem to find where it says to ignore a numerical portion of a card when multiplying its effect.

Not saying you're wrong, but I'd like to base my judgement on more than faith in a rule you remembered reading once.


Let's not even bother with the rulebook. With a strength 1, you can apply 1 +2 for a total of +2 move. The way you want to play it, a strength of 2 can apply +4 to 2 moves, for +8 move total, and strength 3 would apply +6 to 3 moves, for +18 move total... all in addition to what the moving card does. Does this sound like a reasonable scenario?

:edit: Or consider scout movement. When the scout moves 3 times, he doesn't stop after each one and get affected by the "one scout per space" rule, that only happens at the end. That's how I'd understand this card to be applied as well, that there aren't 3 movements to apply it to.
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brewdinar wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:
actaion wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:

If not, why is the +2 being multiplied but not the 1 related to the number of movement steps it could be applied to?


Because that's the rules. The card would be too strong if the effect could be potentiated.


Can you quote me this rule? I can't seem to find where it says to ignore a numerical portion of a card when multiplying its effect.

Not saying you're wrong, but I'd like to base my judgement on more than faith in a rule you remembered reading once.


Let's not even bother with the rulebook. With a strength 1, you can apply 1 +2 for a total of +2 move. The way you want to play it, a strength of 2 can apply +4 to 2 moves, for +8 move total, and strength 3 would apply +6 to 3 moves, for +18 move total... all in addition to what the moving card does. Does this sound like a reasonable scenario?


Actually, this is not what I'm saying at all.

I'm making a third conjecture. Not that the modifier can be applied, in full, to every activation of the movement card. Rather, that Card 36 (Jarrot) is parsed as many times as it is activated.

The end result is the same as the 4+4+6 result we've all agreed to. Where my inquiry differs is in the second part of the card's effect.

Card effect: ... add 2 spaces to one movement on the River.


So the modifier is the same (+6 with three activations), but in the "one movement on the river" bit is also multiplied, so effectively the player could add +2 to one movement on the river per activation. If they move once, they could add +6 to the step. If they move twice, they get +2 to one step and +4 to another (their choice). If they move three times, they get +2 to each step.

This would be a meaningless consideration most of the time, but if they are alternating river-to-mountains-river it becomes more important since unused movement can be lost.
 
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Joel Oakley
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Anarchosyn wrote:
This would be a meaningless consideration most of the time, but if they are alternating river-to-mountains-river it becomes more important since unused movement can be lost.


I agree it would rarely happen, but I could see a situation as follows: A player has Nicholas Jarrot in play with strength 2 and Cut Nose in play with strength 1. Then using the commander with powered 3 times and using two canoes and one horse, he should be allowed to move 6 river (4+2 from Jarrot) followed by 3 mountain (2+1 from Cut Nose) followed by 6 river (4+2 from Jarrot's second strength). This would allow him to skip through the middle river section, 2nd mountains, and past the finish line.

That said, I agree that the total bonus only depends on the strength given to Jarrot (or Cut Nose, or any other character with the infinity symbol), and I agree that the bonus should be allowed to be split as in the example I gave above (though only split into increments as indicated by the card -- 2 in the case of Jarrot).
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Marco Fregoso

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Wait Joel, Here another doubt. I believed that when you use the Captain (or any other card with a "/" symbol) you can only choose one single option per activation (no matter the power) and you are not allowed in dividing power among different effects (as in your example: using the same Captain with 3 power, giving the 1st power to river movement, 2nd to mountain, 3rd to river)

EDIT: ok, no, my mistake. You may choose an effect for each strength given.
 
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The thread has gotten confusing in that too many responses aren't qualifying their statements, i.e., what are they responding to.

Look at Steve Duff's brief explanation, which is the correct one as per the designer's response in another thread. This will clear up the issue.

Regards,
caltexn
 
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
The correct rule is actually quite simple - each card gets the power applied to it. That's all the rules are trying to say.

If your movement guy has power 2, and your "bonus movement" guy like Jarrot (card 36) has power 3, then you get 2*move + 3*bonus move.

The wording that's confusing people "the Strength given to the other
Character doesn’t matter" is trying to clarify that you don't get the bonus move of (2*3) twice because you did the 2 strength move.



This becomes more complicated when a card is used to apply multiple movement types. See Movement over varying terrain. In a RRMMRR move, you have to consider each movement as a separate activation and not a total sum of movement. Thus the question is, can that 3*bonus move be split between 3 activations of the same movement card.

So would Joel's explanation above be correct handling of the split?
 
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caltexn wrote:
The thread has gotten confusing in that too many responses aren't qualifying their statements, i.e., what are they responding to.

Look at Steve Duff's brief explanation, which is the correct one as per the designer's response in another thread. This will clear up the issue.

Regards,
caltexn

Please save us the time to search this explanation by including the link in your post! Thanks.

It would still be very helpful to have an answer if the bonus may be split to different parts of your moving action or not. I guess not, but I was wrong with powering permanent cards so this could be wrong too. I belive you have to add your 3*2 bonus on water to one part (like the rule says) and not to add, for instance, once 1*2, passing the mountains with an other bonus card, and later add 2*2 on water again.
Maybe there is also a rule that you can activate a card only once per turn?
 
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André Seiler
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OK, finally found it! Bonus may not be divided.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/14115957#14115957
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Freejack69 wrote:
OK, finally found it! Bonus may not be divided.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/14115957#14115957


It can't be divided, but can the full bonus for Jarrot be applied to the river movement of your choice in a RRMMMRRR move if you activate your commander 3 times? So the first OR 3rd movement in this example.

Mark
 
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Nicholas Jarrot (#36) card rules state: add 2 spaces to one movement on the River.
This↑ does not specify whether it must be applied to the first or the second, so there is absolutely nothing to keep you from applying it the first, second, or third activation of your movement card--your commander, in your example. But it is pretty clear that it can only be applied to one.
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