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Subject: Explanation of the Rout Phase rss

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Ted Kim
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I vaguely remember someone did a flow chart for the rout phase. Was that an official play aid? or a fan generated one? Anyone have a pointer to it?
 
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Jay Richardson
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Ted Kim wrote:
I vaguely remember someone did a flow chart for the rout phase. Was that an official play aid? or a fan generated one? Anyone have a pointer to it?

There are two that I am aware of.

There's a rather primitive one here on BGG that was posted back in 2004:

rout_flow.bmp
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/7410/rout_flow-bmp

Bill Kohler has a more recent, and much more elaborate, one on his web site (along with a lot of other interesting ASL stuff):

http://home.comcast.net/~kohler/Advanced_Squad_Leader.htm

The direct link is:

Rout Flowchart
http://home.comcast.net/~kohler/Files/Rout%20Flowchart%20-%2...

I haven't used either of these flowcharts, so I can't vouch for how accurate/correct they might be. Note that both of these are for the full ASL rules rather than ASLSK.

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Ruben Rigillo
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I know the thread is old but I have a little question concerning Exemple #6:
the German squad opt to Low Crawl to yZ4 in order to avoid to be eliminated ending its rout in yZ7.
But is this a possible choice? The American squad in yZ8 which is able to eliminate the German one, is known to the German Player but NOT to the German squad. Should it be obliged to rout to yZ7 and so eliminated?
Or else there will be many cases in which the choice to Low Crawl will save a lot of squads.

Am I wrong?

I'm a newbie to ASLSK and I may be.....

Thanks a lot to Mr.Richardson for all his articles!!!!
 
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Jay Richardson
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Ruben Rigillo wrote:
I know the thread is old but I have a little question concerning Exemple #6:
the German squad opt to Low Crawl to yZ4 in order to avoid to be eliminated ending its rout in yZ7.
But is this a possible choice?

Yes. This move is absolutely legal; every routing unit has the option to use Low Crawl.

Ruben Rigillo wrote:
The American squad in yZ8 which is able to eliminate the German one, is known to the German Player but NOT to the German squad. Should it be obliged to rout to yZ7 and so eliminated?

In theory: ...well, maybe. But, in practice, trying to force such actions would probably result in a rules nightmare.

In Example #6, the German player is clearly choosing to Low Crawl to yZ4 to avoid being eliminated in yZ7, but he could just as easily claim that he is using Low Crawl to avoid being Interdicted in yZ6 by the squad in yW4... and no one could argue with that, so nothing would change here.

In terms of "realism" having to rout across any Open Ground hex would be a perfectly valid reason for using Low Crawl instead (from the point of view of the routing unit). Adding a rule that disallowed Low Crawl if the rout path does not cross an Open Ground hex would probably be more trouble than it is worth: it wouldn't apply very often, it might not change the outcome of a rout even when it did apply, and, of course, almost no one thinks that adding even more complexity to the rout rules would be a good idea.
 
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Eddy del Rio
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For me, for greater realism, I like allowing LC only if the starting hex is interdictable. This provides removal of this game technique that seems contrary to the very spirit of the loss of command and control that the RtPh rules provide in general. However I would expect very few to agree to it at a game.
 
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Ruben Rigillo
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Thanks a lot Mr.Richardson.
Now I think everything ( )in the Rout Phase is clear.
Deeping into ASLSK is a real pleasure!
 
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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I have one more question (which might seem obvious):

I do understand that a unit cannot rout on its destination path closer
to a KEU: "A routing unit must move to the nearest building or woods hex within 6MF. IN SO DOING, a routing unit may not rout toward an enemy unit...",

but then it goes on saying "Upon reaching the nearest legal woods or building hex...a routing unit must stop and end its RtPh in that building or woods hex unless the unit can immediately enter another building or woods hex."

It seem to imply (because of the IN SO DOING phrasing) that a routing unit cannot move closer to an enemy unit during its move to the nearest building or woods hex, but once there (inside a building/woods hex) it can rout to other adjacent building/woods hexes - even if they are closer to KEU. (The restriction seem to be only for the destination path).

Or am I reading too much into it?
 
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Damon Baume
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Yes, you are reading too much into it ..a routing unit upon reaching a legal destination hex can not move closer to a KEU if it then moves to an adjacent woods/building hex.
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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Jay,

One more question (hope you aren't getting tired of me ):

You said in the tutorial that when routing to a building/woods as long as its within the 6MF you don't have to take a direct path, but when you low crawl you MUST low crawl towards (one hex nearer).

I can't find anywhere in the SKRB that says that low crawl must be one hex nearer - all I could find is: "Low Crawl is a rout of one hex that requires the entire MF allotment of the routing unit. A routing unit using Low Crawl cannot be interdicted. All other rout provisions apply unchanged to Low Crawl".

I am assuming these provisions include 'cannot go nearer to a KEU', etc.
but if one of these provisions is also that you don't have to take direct path to rout target (building/woods), wouldn't that also apply to Low Crawl?
 
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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I think I found my own answer in the ASLRB:

"Unless it discovers new KEU that prevent it from doing so, the Unit must end its RtPh
closer to its destination hex than it began."
(found it somewhere)

seems like an omission in the SKRB then...
 
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Jay Richardson
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Erez Ben-Aharon wrote:
I can't find anywhere in the SKRB that says that low crawl must be one hex nearer - all I could find is: "Low Crawl is a rout of one hex that requires the entire MF allotment of the routing unit. A routing unit using Low Crawl cannot be interdicted. All other rout provisions apply unchanged to Low Crawl".

I am assuming these provisions include 'cannot go nearer to a KEU', etc.
but if one of these provisions is also that you don't have to take direct path to rout target (building/woods), wouldn't that also apply to Low Crawl?

I think the problem is that the Rout rules are making an assumption without spelling it out explicitly. Here's what the full ASL rules say in A10.52:

"All other Rout provisions apply unchanged to Low Crawl, e.g., rout must still be towards the nearest woods/building Location within 6 MF."

But the Rout provisions don't say that you have to move "towards" a specific destination... they say that you have to move "to" a specific destination.

A10.52 assumes that because a normal rout must move to a specific destination, a Low Crawl must always move towards a specific destination. But I don't think that there is a rule that explicitly says this, despite A10.52 implying that there is such a rule by using it as an example.

The ASLSK Rout rules say basically the same thing as the ASL rules, so the same assumption applies: a routing unit using Low Crawl must still rout towards a legal rout destination (woods or building within 6 MF) if one exists, because a regular rout would have to move to such a destination.

The ASLSK rules are lacking the example that was given in A10.52, but other than that, when comparing them to the full ASL rules, they are correct as written.

Erez Ben-Aharon wrote:
"Unless it discovers new KEU that prevent it from doing so, the Unit must end its RtPh closer to its destination hex than it began."
(found it somewhere)

Is that a quote from a rulebook? Any chance you could track down where you read that?
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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richfam wrote:

Is that a quote from a rulebook? Any chance you could track down where you read that?


Gamesquad :| (ok, yeah, I know...not very authoritative)


richfam wrote:

The ASLSK Rout rules say basically the same thing as the ASL rules, so the same assumption applies: a routing unit using Low Crawl must still rout towards a legal rout destination (woods or building within 6 MF) if one exists, because a regular rout would have to move to such a destination.


My issue with that is that even though a regular rout would have you move to such a destination, it does not force your 1st move towards that destination to be closer to it.

For example, in your own example #8, the broken squad routs to the building through S8 (which is not closer to the building from the original hex). If those same provisions that allowed for it to rout to the building through the equidistant S8, why doesn't it also allow it to low crawl to it via S8? (and would instead force it to low crawl to T3 instead)

It seems inconsistent.

 
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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richfam wrote:

Is that a quote from a rulebook? Any chance you could track down where you read that?


Ok, take2 - I think I found it, still at Gamesquad :|, but this time with proper references:

"10.51 DIRECTION: ...As long as it reaches that hex during a single RtPh, it need not use the shortest route,..."

This could imply that since if it doesn't reach that hex during a single RtPh, then it must use the shortest route.

From memory of how logic equations works, the former does not necessitate the latter, but it is as close as I could find...

What do you reckon?
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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And here is a link I found to someone giving a pretty good explanation
(borne of argument) on how the whole 'must move along the shortest path in MF if law crawling' point of view:

http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?85948-Quick-rout-...

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Jay Richardson
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Erez Ben-Aharon wrote:
"10.51 DIRECTION: ...As long as it reaches that hex during a single RtPh, it need not use the shortest route,..."

This could imply that since if it doesn't reach that hex during a single RtPh, then it must use the shortest route.

Yes, that would be my interpretation.

Erez Ben-Aharon wrote:
And here is a link I found to someone giving a pretty good explanation (borne of argument) on how the whole 'must move along the shortest path in MF if law crawling' point of view:

http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?85948-Quick-rout-...

Great link! I don't remember that discussion, although it seems unlikely that I would have missed it.

I would agree with those arguing that Low Crawl must follow the shortest path, but I also agree that none of this is explicitly spelled out in the rules... hence the disagreements as to how it should be handled.
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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richfam wrote:
Erez Ben-Aharon wrote:
"10.51 DIRECTION: ...As long as it reaches that hex during a single RtPh, it need not use the shortest route,..."

This could imply that since if it doesn't reach that hex during a single RtPh, then it must use the shortest route.

Yes, that would be my interpretation.

Erez Ben-Aharon wrote:
And here is a link I found to someone giving a pretty good explanation (borne of argument) on how the whole 'must move along the shortest path in MF if law crawling' point of view:

http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?85948-Quick-rout-...

Great link! I don't remember that discussion, although it seems unlikely that I would have missed it.

I would agree with those arguing that Low Crawl must follow the shortest path, but I also agree that none of this is explicitly spelled out in the rules... hence the disagreements as to how it should be handled.


Yeah sounds good...I wish there was an official clarification over this, but maybe in a future edition.

I think I might do some videos around it on my youtube channel to create some examples of 'testy' cases in ASLSK, will let you know when its done so you can 'review' it (if you don't mind). The idea is to try and create some baseline with new players so that everyone is on the same page with the rules (as much as possible).
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Teemu Niiranen
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How about multi-hex woods compared to multi-hex building? Does it work the same way? Can I ignore other hexes as rout destination?

What if my broken unit under DM is in single hex woods? Can I choose to leave it and move on open ground hex to get into another woods hex? By doing so I will try to dodge the DM next round.
 
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Mark Humphries
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techmecs wrote:
How about multi-hex woods compared to multi-hex building? Does it work the same way? Can I ignore other hexes as rout destination?


No

techmecs wrote:

What if my broken unit under DM is in single hex woods? Can I choose to leave it and move on open ground hex to get into another woods hex? By doing so I will try to dodge the DM next round.


I'm not sure I understand the question.
If you mean can you choose not to remove the DM at the end of the Rally Phase from a unit that's in a woods hex (and not Adjacent to an enemy unit), the answer is no.
 
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Teemu Niiranen
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I try to describe the second one more precisely. I know that I can choose to stay in the building or woods hex when under DM (if there is no adjacent enemies) but can you only rout from woods hex to another woods or building hex? Or can you rout to another woods through

a) an open ground hex

b) a hindrance hex

There is no example of opportunities when you are already in woods or building, under desperation morale and there is no adjacent enemies.
 
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Mark Humphries
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techmecs wrote:
I try to describe the second one more precisely. I know that I can choose to stay in the building or woods hex when under DM (if there is no adjacent enemies) but can you only rout from woods hex to another woods or building hex? Or can you rout to another woods through

a) an open ground hex

b) a hindrance hex

There is no example of opportunities when you are already in woods or building, under desperation morale and there is no adjacent enemies.


Yes, you could leave the woods hex to rout to (or towards if you're Low Crawling) the nearest in MF non-ignorable woods/building hex (even if you go through other terrain on the way). If there's no non-ignorable building/woods that's reachable, you could even choose to rout to other terrain.
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Frank Hastings
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As a new ASLSK player (the ASL rule book and Beyond Valor have been on the shelf for years) I want to thank you Jay for your tutorials.

There are now two and maybe three new ASL players and that would never of happened if it were not for the SK products and your tutorials.
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Gabriele Mauri
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Thanks a lot for the great work Jay. Now everything is much more clear to me. One question that I am still trying to understand is when would a broken DM unit chose not to rout and why?
 
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Brian Roundhill
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Redwall wrote:
Thanks a lot for the great work Jay. Now everything is much more clear to me. One question that I am still trying to understand is when would a broken DM unit chose not to rout and why?


If a broken DM unit is in a safe location with a leader, it may choose not to rout, especially if there no other leaders it can rout to.

Broken units can also be used to deny your opponent entry into hexes. If a victory building is surrounded by broken units, it is much more difficult to enter that building.
 
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Ruben Rigillo
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DM units MUST rout if adjacent to enemy unit or if they are in an otherwise interdictable hex (open, not hindered and in LOS of GO enemy units).
Remember that broken units become DM in the very moment they are adjacent to enemy units or they are targeted by fire attack that could possibly cause a MC result(regardless of the actual attack result).

EDIT: remember also that in RPh broken units can opt to retain the DM unless they are in woods or building.
AND
That an unbroken/unpinned Leader can choose to rout along with DM units he is stacked with.
 
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Martí Cabré

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richfam wrote:

EXAMPLE #1:

Place a broken German squad in yBB8
Place American squads in yZ5 and yCC8



The potential rout destinations here are yZ7, yZ8, yZ9, and yAA10, all 3 MF away. But yZ7 and yZ8 are not legal rout destinations, because they cannot be reached without moving closer to the Known Enemy Unit in yZ5. Notice that yAA9-yZ8 is not legal, even though yZ8 itself is no closer to the Known Enemy Unit than the broken unit's starting hex, because in moving from yAA9 to yZ8 you would be moving closer to the Known Enemy Unit (from 4 hexes away to 3 hexes away). Even if no LOS existed between yAA9 and yZ5 the routing unit would still "remember" the Known Enemy Unit in yZ5 from seeing it from yBB8 and would not be allowed to move closer to it by entering yZ8.


Are you sure that the bolded part is correct? yZ8 is clearly closer to the KEU.

Maybe in this example you wanted to place the American unit in AA6 instead of Z5? Then Z8 would be 3 hexes away from AA6, like the broken unit's starting hex, but moving from AA9 to Z8 would decrease the distance.
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