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Subject: Cataclysm or Triumph & Tragedy? rss

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Geoff C
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Some upcoming games on WW2 with a focus on economics and political ideals as well as military options. Anyone familiar enough with both able to comment and contrast the two?
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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I plan on owning both.

Here’s a short list of differences as far as I can tell (I haven’t had the pleasure of playing Craig’s game, though I’ve preordered it.)

• Cataclysm starts in 1933 and can run to 1950 if no other endgame condition is reached (T&T is listed as “1935-1945″)
• Cataclysm includes the Pacific/Asian theatre from India to Dutch Harbor, from Hawai’i to Xinjiang.
• The combat, economic, diplomatic, and sequencing systems seem completely different.
• Cataclysm does not use cards.
• Cataclysm does not include technological development of weapons systems (we assume it’s below the scale of the game).
• Cataclysm shows some political differences between the ideologies directly in the gameplay.

We wish Craig all the best with his project. I look forward to playing our game and his back-to-back!
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Brian Evans
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I've been involved with helping Craig Besinque develop Triumph & Tragedy for roughly the last year or so. I remember looking into Cataclysm some time ago and being intrigued with what I saw but I haven't played their game so I can only comment from the perspective of T&T. Here's a brief list of T&T features. I can't say how they differ from Cataclysm.


• Rather than a “WW2 game,” TnT is a “Great Power rivalry game” set in the 1930’s and 40’s, focused on economic and diplomatic as well as military competition.
• In T&T there are three distinct routes to an early victory: Military (capturing 2 or more capitals), Atomic (develop the A-bomb) and economic (attain a dominating empire).
• T&T has a running time of roughly 4-5 hours, but that can shift a lot depending on the style of game played as well as if anyone achieves an early victory (fairly common).
• T&T does use cards (Action Deck and Investment Deck) but they aren't the Ops/Event style. Each card does have multiple uses though.
• T&T is a block war game.
• T&T is designed for high accessibility with a short rulebook, fast play time and easily understood mechanics.
• T&T is designed for 3-player but has had a 2-player rule set since before I came aboard and has been in constant testing.
• T&T has a really cool blockade system where through submarine warfare and other means you can try to economically strangle your foes.
• T&T features a true three sided affair. Allied cooperation is not assured and war between any of the three factions is very possible.
• If I had to describe T&T in one word it would be "Freedom". T&T is a sandbox style game where you, not Hitler, Stalin or Chamberlain are in charge of your respective faction. You can decide on the construction of your military, whether you want a strong navy or a dominating air force. You can decide your faction's commitment to gaining allies through diplomacy or your faction's emphasis on research and even espionage. You can decide to cooperate with your Rivals or to beat them bloody with your armies. The freedom of choice is yours.
• Triumph & Tragedy achieved P500 status some time ago and we are hopeful it will enter art development in the next few months.

Craig has written a nice article describing Triumph & Tragedy for the GMT Blog. I don't believe the piece has been released yet but I imagine it will be soon.

GMT Blog


If anyone has any questions regarding Triumph & Tragedy, I'd be happy to answer them as best I can.

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Kurt Keckley
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I have played several games of TnT and one brief intro to Cat. They are nothing alike. So different that I wouldn't know where to begin.

My advice is to P500 both!
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Captain Nemo
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p38_Lightning wrote:
I have played several games of TnT and one brief intro to Cat. They are nothing alike. So different that I wouldn't know where to begin.

My advice is to P500 both!
Nevertheless a review of the two together might be most illuminating. I think there could be a symbiotic co-operative advantage in linking the two rather than being in competition. I could buy both should I see the individual merits of each.
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Sergey Kosarev
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Any of these games have additional scenarios or just one standard?
 
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Kevin Bernatz
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I can't answer for T&T as I'm not involved in the development/design of that game, but Cataclysm will have a main campaign (starting in 1933) and several smaller scenarios. The smaller scenarios will deal with either just Europe, just the Pacific or both.

-Kevin Bernatz
developer, Cataclysm
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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kbernatz wrote:
Cataclysm will have a main campaign (starting in 1933) and several smaller scenarios.
Specifically. this is what we are planning as of now...

Introductory Scenario
Crisis In The West ... 1937-40 ... 1 hour ... 2 players

One-Theatre Scenarios
The Eagle And The Sun ... 1941-46 ... 1 hour ... 2 players
The Great Patriotic War ... 1941-46 ... 1½ hours ... 2 players
Storm Over Europe ... 1941-46 ... 2-3 hours ... 2-4 players
Hitler’s War ... 1939-46 ... 3 hours ... 2-4 players

Global Scenarios
Prelude To War ... 1933-42 ... 3 hours ... 2-5 players
Closing The Ring ... 1943-46 ... 2-3 hours ... 2-5 players
The Hinge Of Fate ... 1941- ... 3-4 hours ... 2-5 players
The Gathering Storm ... 1939- ... 4 hours ... 2-5 players
Tragedy And Triumph ... 1933- ... 5-6 hours ... 2-5 players

Alternate History Scenarios
Pour La Patrie ... 1937-42 ... 1 hour ... 2 players
White Star, Red Star ... 1945-50 ... 2-3 hours ... 2-3 players
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Kevin Bernatz
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Currently...

but I should add that Scott is 'jumping the gun', since I am not sure we will include all those scenarios in the finished product. Size of playbook and adequate testing will determine which scenarios 'make the cut'...the others will likely be made available post-publication.

-K (gotta keep these designers in check... :-> )
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