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Subject: 1st MN Returns to Carthage: 1st Punic War: Turns 264 BC > 259 BC: Fall 2014 rss

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David Dockter
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Last year, I finally got a chance to play this beast with two of my great gaming mates, Mr.John Alsen and Mr.Dan Frick. Dan and I ran the Romans, while John commanded the forces of Cartha. It was a fantastic gaming experience - a link to the final AAR in our 24 turn epic go with Carthage: The First Punic War here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1023611/aug-16-2013-3-wa...

Late this summer, we decided to give it another go: same players, same sides.

Overview

A few quick notes about the game if you are not familiar with it. Berg's epic game:

1. Produces a great storyline

2. Has many interesting political dynamics baked in

3. Creates MASSIVE swings of fortune; partially due to the innovative CRT and combat system. We love the possible "X" result on the CRT (happens 10-20% of the time): basically, you ignore the respective quality/strength of each side and toss another die where about anything can happen.

4. Is the best strat/operational ancients game ever (I think we've played them all)

5. Is a part of system - The Rise of the Roman Republic was the first in the series, this game is the second, and, we're waiting...and waiting...(Com'n Mr.Berg!) for the third game on the 2nd Punic war.

6. Contains a "challenging" rule set. It's a pain in the arse to crack. HOWEVER, it isn't that difficult - if that makes any sense. Best advice? Read rules once, then start pushing counters. It will take you a session or two, but, the core system works well and is relatively clean.

7. Is 100% beef: a very deep, rich decision (risk/reward) matrix

So, yes, we're sold on the game after completing the 24 turn 1st Punic War campaign (it took us about 50 hours - a very enjoyable 50 hours).


Leader manifest

This Game Has Good Characters...

Leaders are the center of the action (that and the damm fickle senates in Cartha and Rome!). And, they are an interesting lot. Above are the leader counters - I'll be referring in some cases to their I.D. number (3xx in the case of Rome, IP-xx in the case of Cartha). Each leader has 5 important ratings:

Guile - 0 to 2 - basically allows you to modify important die rolls

Initiative - 1 to 3 - determines how many chits are placed in the activation pot for the turn - draw a chit, move the leader.

Mortality - 5 to 9 - roll that or higher, the leader meets his maker

Campaign - 4 to 7 - roll that or lower, the leader gets to do the action he is attempting

Battle - A to E - a VERY cool feature - in each battle you roll a die to determine a combat die roll modifier. For example with a "A" leader, roll a "0" (yes, it is a zero - this is a Berg game) and his drm is 4 - toss a "9" and his drm is 9! For the poor sap "E" leader: roll a "0", his drm is 0 - toss a "9" he gets a 5. You compare the two drms, and that produces a net drm for "leader tactical ability". So, a HUGE swing is possible. From the example above, let's say the A leader tossed a "0", his drm is 4. Poor sap "E" rolled a 9 (the dice gods smiled on him), his drm is a 5....so, E gets a net 1 to the actual combat die roll. Very cool. It reflects who is had a bad night with the mistress, who is at the top of their game, etc. I hope to see this mechanic in more games.

Rome's leaders contain quite a few horrible commanders: 28 of 40 are rated "D" or E". There are no "A"s (Scipio Africanus will not appear until Berg produces the 2nd Punic War - Com'n Berg!)...and only 2 "B"s (Duilius #310 and Atilius #313). Syracuse starts the game with the respectable Hiero ("C" - but a high leader rating - a "7" - which, basically you roll less than or equal to to perform an action you wish). Carthage has 17 leaders which includes four "Bs" (Abherbal 1P-1, Carthalo 1P-4, Hamilcar 1P-6 and Hm Barca 1P-7).

A Bit About Some of the Primary Design Mechanics...

Movement: sea and land. Basically, you move as far as you want given two constraints: attrition and making your campaign roll when forced to "stop" for some reason.

Combat: 15 beautiful Berg die roll modifiers....only attacker tosses the actual combat roll... table produces percentage losses and retreats...if you suffer a major defeat and opponent has cav superiority, you're in for a pursuit beating. And, as previously stated, 10-20% of the time a roll produces an "X" result; essentially, you re-roll the combat without any quantity/quality considerations for an equal chance of disaster or glory. It really spices up the combat; hope to see other designers incorporate that.

Force Quality: Army status (normal, disrupted, disorganized, useless) impacts combat, interception ability and attrition; so, you need to give the troops some tender loving care. Surprisingly, no rule in the game for decimation.

Siege: Handled very well - you can take a city by starving the bums out, utilizing treachery or just storming the damm thing.

Politics: As indicated, the game drips with it (THIS IS GOOD!)...the Senates muck things up constantly, Cartha likes to crucify its defeated leaders (yes, there is an actual rule - this is a Berg game!), roman elections determine your commanders each turn (Rome likes to elect horrible battlefield commanders at the absolute worst times).

Random events table: It's a beauty - this is a Berg game!

All-in-all, a real wargaming feast. So, with that, let's jump into the AAR. Two last notes on the AAR - I often refer to a leader by number (see leader manifest) and indicate his ratings as XYZ = X is initiative, Y is battle, Z is campaign. Finally, in the pictures below - a miniature figure indicates the location of an army (roman's have the boys with wolf heads and taller banners), while a block indicates ownership of a location (usually a city). We use these bits to allow us to quickly tell what is happening on the game board, since we tend to have a number of gamers stop by and watch the action.

We play at The Source in St.Paul, home of the First Minnesota Historical Wargame Society Stop by on Fridays if you are in the hood.


setting up

264BC: Romans Establish Beachhead in Sicily


264BC the war begins

Rome began the game in style with the election of two bums, Claudius 2D6 and Fulvius 1D5 to consul positions. Carthage then stole the activation march with Hanno Haml 2C5 moving his army to Messana to begin a siege & Hiero marching in support. Rome moved a few small fleets, but, they scattered and became ineffective for the turn.


264BC Messena

Fulvius 1D5 then took Consul Army II, crossed the straits and attempted to enter Messana. The Carthage navy intercepted. Without a fleet escort, Rome was courting disaster but thought the gods would be with them. Dice were tossed and the Carthaginian fleet was destroyed. That set up the first land battle of the game: Fulvius vs Hanno Haml. Modifiers were +2 odds ratio, +1 Cav superiority, -3 naval transport penalty…for a net “0” prior to the ALWAYS critical battle rolls for each leader. Consul Frick searched the die for a magic number…



Consul Frick looks for the desired result on a ten sider...

…die was tossed and out popped a “9!”, while Cartha rolled a “2”, resulting in a +2 for Rome…drum roll for the combat roll…”4”…resulting in a bet “6”: Attacker loses 10% and Defender suffers 15%. Rome is pleased: they now have a foothold in Sicily.

Next, Treacherous Southern Sicilian Coastal Waters struck as a random event: not much impact in the current situation. Consul Army I under Claudius then attempted to also enter Sicily, but, failed his continuation roll. Since the Romans had been unable to force a retreat of Cartha’s force at Messana, it then suffered a few siege attrition rolls. Luckily for Rome, its besieged force survived. During the phase where fleets return to port, Cartha managed to sink two of its own fleets.

263BC: Roman Debacle in Sicily


Carthage GHQ

During the political phase, Rome attempted to proconsul Claudius 2D6 (not that good of a leader, but, there are MUCH worse). Consul Frick tossed a mortality die roll for dear Claudius….


Frick wounds dear Claudius

…and Claudius was wounded: out for the year! And, speaking of MUCH worse leaders, L.Valerius 1E4 and C.Atilius 1E5 were elected to lead Rome’s armies: clouds appeared on the horizon – storm clouds! One bright spot, is that Rome did get leader 314, Suipicius 2C6, to command a fleet. Carthage’s political position remain cautious and the Magonids remained in charge (either the Magonids or Barcids call the shots in Cartha). Rome managed to raise two legions….M.Valerius (the good Valerius) 2C5 took command of the new Consul III army. A few storm clouds dissipated.

Hiero kick off the action in 263BC by moving to assist with Messana. He was intercepted by L.Valerius and his Consul Army II. However, Rome was to suffer their first of many major defeats as their army lost 25% SPs, while Hiero was only nicked for 15%. Hiero then reinforced the Carthaginian siege of Messana.

L.Valerius then activated and fled with his useless army (yes, that is a army “state”) to Panormus – hoping to draw the Carthaginians away from critical Messana. Hano wouldn’t take the bait and instead assaulted Messana, but failed to take the city. The Romans rejoiced....temporarily.

Consul Army I then attempted an attack on the Cartha’s army at Messana…the combat die roll resulted in the always exciting “X” result…die rolled again and ....Rome suffers its second major defeat this turn: incurring 30% losses vs enemy Cartha’s 5%. The turn proceeded into true disaster territory as the only two Roman fleets were then destroyed by Carthage. To put a cherry on it, Roman leader 331 (M.Fabius) died in the battle. Thankfully, for Rome, the turn ended.

So, Rome was still holding onto Messana, but had made no progress elsewhere in Sicily (or anywhere else for that matter!). And, Rome’s two armies in Sicily were at “useless” status. Avoiding an automatic Carthaginian victory in the next few turns would be a difficult Roman challenge.

262BC: Rome Takes Another Beating and Drepanum


262BC

During the Political phase of 262BC, the two Roman elected consuls were A.Claudius (again) 2D6 and Sempron 2D5. Bad, but not horrible results. As Rome tried to proconsul the good Valerius 2C5, Consul Frick tossed another mortality roll. Again, a frickin “8”! Valerius wounded. Rome did get some luck with N.Fabius 2C5 taking over Consul Army III. Rome passed on raising legions, preferring a naval program to raise the capacity of their ports (which allows one to build bigger fleets). The Carthaginian Senate was pleased and authorized commander Alsen to raise more troops. Hanno Hml 2C5 retained control of Cartha Army I, while Gisgo 1D5 commanded Cartha Army II.

The turn began with a bold move by Roman Consul Army III under Fabius as he crossed into Sicily (Rome had disbanded one of its useless armies), skillfully avoiding interception, and running to LilyBaeum – and placing the city under siege. Hanno Haml, decided to leave siege duties to Hiero, and engaged a Roman army at Panormus. Cartha’s die roll modifiers where a +9! – and then Alsen rolls a “8” for a “17” results: 30% Roman losses vs 5% Carthaginian losses. Commander Alsen had his THIRD major victory.

Adding to Roman trouble, the random event gods under the leadership of Mr.Berg, then tossed a “Revolt of the Falisci” at Dr. & Frick. We had some rules questions regarding the event and decided the only effect was to subtract a legion (any! Anywhere?!) from a consul army and place it Tarquini (no attrition on the trip there?!). Consul Army III finally accomplished something positive for the citizens of Rome by taking Drepanum. Rome now had a city in Sicily – one that had been taken at tremendous cost. Consul Army I moved to Rhegium to guard against Carthage attempting to capture a Major city or two Minors in Italy (instant Carthaginian victory).

261BC: Cartha Takes Messana


261BC

During the Political Phase, more bad news for Rome: Cartha’s senate authorizes raising an additional army. Fortunately for Rome, 1P-2, Bostar 1D5, took command of it. Rome again expanded its port capacity. On the leadership front, Rome got the Triple E: Cornelius 1E5, Servilius 1E6 and Postumius 1E4. More trouble on the horizon.

Turn started out with a random event: “Attempt to Become King of Carthage Fails”: 1P-17, Bomilcar 1C5 was “executed in a rather grisly fashion”. 1P-12, Hanno Haml then engaged Consul Army III….die roll mods of +7…and Alsen rolls a “9” for another “16”! Rome suffered 30% losses, while Cartha only took 10%. Yet, another MAJOR DEFEAT for Rome. Bostar then attempt to jump on the pile by trying to engage the now useless Consul Army III, but, failed the continuation roll. Rome tried a risky manpower raise and was successful at enlisting two more legions – now, Consul Army II. Consul Army I tried to cross the straits into Sicily, but failed. Accordingly, people of Messena were tired of starving on Rome’s behalf and welcomed in the forces of Syracuse/Carthage.

In the final action of the turn, Consul Army III tried to flee from the two Carthagian armies, however it was intercepted. Miraculously, Consul Army III rolled high on their combat roll and managed equal 20% losses – and retreated to friendly Drepanum to hopefully regroup and rearm.

With Messana now under Carthagian control, automatic victory inched MUCH closer for Cartha: Commander John was pleased.

260BC: Bitter fighting in Sicily, Rome takes Panormus


260BC

During the Political Phase, Rome elected M.Fabius 1E6 and ray of sunshine Postumius 2C6 as consuls. Ser.Fulvius 2D6 took over Consul Army III. Rome built its first real fleet in Osita: 20 squadrons. The Romans stated they planned to leave the fleet in port for a few turns (to raise crew quality). Carthaginian Senate went Cautious and consequently ordered one of their three armies disbanded.

The turn began with the usual Carthaginian BANG: Hanno Haml 2C5 lead his army against the roman force at Drepanum. Die roll mods for Cartha were +12!....drum roll for the combat die roll….”0”…Rome only takes 25% losses vs Cartha’s 15% - but, is forced to retreat. This disorganized Consul Army III would end the turn sieging Panormus, so, it retained some utility. Consul Army II crossed at Messena, avoiding interception by Hiero and his Syracuse army, and reinforced the sieging force at Panormus. Later in the turn, Consul Army II was able to complete the siege and another city in Sicily fell to Rome – despite its early game multiple disasters. Cathage also continued its campaign in Numidia, taking cities (which produces VPs for Carthat). Turn ended with Hanno Hml Cartha Army I sieging Drepanum.

259BC: Rome takes Agrigentum, but loses Panormus & Drepanum


259BC

During the Political Phase, the elections produced a couple of bad, not horrible, consuls: Lutatius 1D6 and C.Atlius 2D6. Rome also managed to raise a legion and relatively decent Postumius 2C6 took command. The Carthaginian Senate changed their stance to “ALERT” meaning another army would be raised (45inf/10cav under 1P-15: dangerous Hasdrubal 2C5).

Newly minted Roman Legion XII under Postumius hustled north to clean out some Carthaginian allies that begin the game in Northern Italy. Carthaginian naval forces conducted their usual raid of Italy (generates a negative modifier to manpower rolls for Rome) and occupying the port of besieged cities. Without a fleet, Rome could only watch. Roman Consul Army II managed to completed a successful siege of Agrigentum, bringing three Sicilian cities under Roman control. However, the year was not finished: Carthage would liberate both Drepanum and Panormus. Rome ended the year with a one remaining toehold on Sicily.

Wrap up


Customary BBQ foraging by our gaming crew...three "man meat" plates: pork, beef and some spicy sausage. Sadly, no venison or bacon.

Well, first few rounds of this match go to the Carthagian. Rome has been sweating out a number of scenarios that could result in auto victory for Cartha. Rome has fought a seven large battles: 2 inconclusive results, FIVE major defeats. Rome is fighting at a significant disadvantage at this stage: poor leaders, army efficiency (Carthage has a good army, Rome still lacks veterans), occasional cavalry superiority for the Cartha, army status (Rome armies very beat up at this point).

Rome strategy appears to be to gain and keep a small beachhead in Sicily, liberate Messena (now that it has fallen), while soon initiating conquest of Corsica and Sardinia. Carthage has successfully wiped out most of what has been sent to Sicily, but been unable to cleanse Sicily of Roman presence. If can manage to liberate the new Roman base at Agrigentum – and then take out Syracuse (yes, Syracuse is allied to Carthage, but allied status prevents control of the Syracuse), Carthage would have an automatic victory (assuming Carthage could prevent Roman conquest of Corsica & Sardinia).

In the next few turns, we will either witness a Carthaginian automatic victory, or, we’re likely in for the entire 24 turn feast.

We’ve plowed through about ¼ of the game (6 turns) and invested about 9 hours: about a hour and half a turn (our first game we averaged about two hours a turn). We’re still discovering significant rules we misunderstood – this for three hardcore wargamers with a combined hobby experience of over a century! But, who cares – we’re having fun – and will continue to push through. We do have a copy of the living rules, but they haven’t been updated to reflect Q&A on consim/BGG the last few years. There are some good playaids here and there.

This game could really use a “Here’s how you play this beast” youtube.

We also have a few questions:

1.Interception: If you fail to intercept, can you try to intercept again after an enemy’s successful continuation roll? We said no.

2.Interception: Carthage leader tries to intercept a Roman force. He fails. Can the allied Syracuse leader stacked with Carthage then attempt to intercept? We said no.

3.Garrisons: WHAT is the garrison limit for a city? We think that when a force is dropping off factors, the force in a city may not exceed the IDS value (7 Large, 3 Med, 1 Small city) or garrison value (listed on the city occupation display). Can that total be exceeded by a second friendly force. For example, Rome Consul Army 1 drops off 3 at Drepanum…later in the turn 3 more dropped off by Consul Army 2? Is there any other way to increase the size of a garrison? And, again, can the IDS or garrison value (city occupation display) ever be exceeded?

We hope to resume in a few weeks play of this fabulous operational/strategic ancients beast. arrrh

P.S. If you are wondering where I scored the fantastic ancients miniatures (more on the way!) pictured above, found a great shop in Donetsk, Ukraine: Tin Warriors. They are also the company that sells the great figures of Churchill, FDR and Stalin for those of you wanting to properly kit out the upcoming game Churchill Shipping is pricey, but, the figures are outstanding...heavy...like this meaty wargame.
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Alan Ray
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1.Interception: If you fail to intercept, can you try to intercept again after an enemy’s successful continuation roll? We said no.

Yes. One Interception attempt is allowed per each Movement Operation - see AW 6.53/

2.Interception: Carthage leader tries to intercept a Roman force. He fails. Can the allied Syracuse leader stacked with Carthage then attempt to intercept? We said no.

Yes. However, due to command restrictions (AW 6.51), only Syracusan troops can participate.

3.Garrisons: WHAT is the garrison limit for a city? We think that when a force is dropping off factors, the force in a city may not exceed the IDS value (7 Large, 3 Med, 1 Small city) or garrison value (listed on the city occupation display). Can that total be exceeded by a second friendly force. For example, Rome Consul Army 1 drops off 3 at Drepanum…later in the turn 3 more dropped off by Consul Army 2? Is there any other way to increase the size of a garrison? And, again, can the IDS or garrison value (city occupation display) ever be exceeded?

This is has been changed/clarified in AW 2.2 and CR 2.0. There is no garrison limit - AW 9.93. The Roman player however must remove garrison SP in excess of the city IDS when he disbands Legions - see CR 9.9

The AW 2.2 and Carthage 2.0 rules are available in the Living rules section on the GMT website
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David Dockter
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Thanks! So, a movement operation is NOT the entire movement for a leader's activation, but rather movement between stops?

Also, thank you for your continued support of this gem.
 
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Alan Ray
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Exactly - see AW 5.3 for the complete list of Operations
 
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Kev.
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How does CArthage 'conquer' Syracuse when allied with Hiero? Place units in the hex?
That would be a neat auto win.
We are on turn 2.....yikes. Your game seem very aggressive, but I did knock out MAssena and block the Romans entry to Sicily turn 1.

Now they are goofing around in Gaul knocking off allies and building up to fleets etc. they were allowed to raise no legions Turn 1.
 
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David Dockter
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Reading the Carthage JUL 2013 rules now...page 38...blue type...last sentence of Either Player Auto Wins: ..."The player allied to Syracuse cannot auto win if the opposing player controls Syracuse". That leads me to believe he CAN win if he is allied to Syracuse - and the enemy does not control Syracuse (the city I assume). That's a change from how we played it: if you were allied to Syracuse, you couldn't auto win with this particular condition.

If that's the case, only Roman control of Lilybaeum, at the moment, is preventing Cartha auto victory, correct (Cartha controls all the other cities in Sicily, Corsica, Sardinia and Melita.

I also note the new blue ink on page 36 for Syracusa..."Syracusa and the cities with Syracusan garrisons begin the game Allied to Carthage. These cities are considered Allied controlled cities...
 
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Also read a Berg post in Jan 2014 on the GMT CSW board that Thunderbolt: The Second Punic War (the 3rd game in this series) was in playtest and has four maps:

"Well, you get the Italy map from RISE OF ROMEAN REPUBLIC and the Carthage maps from CARTHAGE . .. that's two . . . I'll see if I can take a half decent visual of the Hisanpia map . . .and I have yet to do the Greece map."

Can't wait to play this system sprawled over 4 maps.
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Brian Sielski
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Herr Dr wrote:
Reading the Carthage JUL 2013 rules now...page 38...blue type...last sentence of Either Player Auto Wins: ..."The player allied to Syracuse cannot auto win if the opposing player controls Syracuse". That leads me to believe he CAN win if he is allied to Syracuse - and the enemy does not control Syracuse (the city I assume). That's a change from how we played it: if you were allied to Syracuse, you couldn't auto win with this particular condition.

If that's the case, only Roman control of Lilybaeum, at the moment, is preventing Cartha auto victory, correct (Cartha controls all the other cities in Sicily, Corsica, Sardinia and Melita.

I also note the new blue ink on page 36 for Syracusa..."Syracusa and the cities with Syracusan garrisons begin the game Allied to Carthage. These cities are considered Allied controlled cities...


You better get clarification on this. Reading the rule, Carthage must control Corsica and Sardinia, AND control Messana, Agrigentum, Panormus, Drepanum, Lilybaeum, Lipara, and Melita. Then ... IN ADDITION, the player NOT allied to Syracuse (that is Rome in your game), must control Syracusa.

So as that stands ... if Rome controls Syracuse, then Carthage can get an Auto victory if it finally gets Lily. If Carthage remains an Ally and Rome doesn't control Syracuse, then Carthage may never get auto win.
 
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David Dockter
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What about the new blue ink phrase:

"...These cities are considered Allied controlled cities..."

-------------

"If Carthage remains an Ally and Rome doesn't control Syracuse, then Carthage may never get auto win."

That is how we've played it, but, again, the new blue ink phrase {in bold above}, seems to say different.
 
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Alan Ray
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So as that stands ... if Rome controls Syracuse, then Carthage can get an Auto victory if it finally gets Lily. If Carthage remains an Ally and Rome doesn't control Syracuse, then Carthage may never get auto win.

• Either Player Automatically Wins: If he has military control of
the provinces Corsica and Sardinia, AND control of the following
cities: Messana, Agrigentum, Panormus, Drepanum, Lilybaeum,
Lipara, and Melita. In addition, the player not allied to Syracuse,
must control Syracusa.The player allied to Syracuse cannot automatically win if the oppsoing player controls Syracusa.

If Carthage is allied to Syracuse and Rome controls Syracusa, there is no auto victory for Carthage. Conversely, if Carthage is not allied to Syracuse, Carthage must control Syracusa to get the auto win.
 
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Kev.
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Agrippa Al wrote:
So as that stands ... if Rome controls Syracuse, then Carthage can get an Auto victory if it finally gets Lily. If Carthage remains an Ally and Rome doesn't control Syracuse, then Carthage may never get auto win.

• Either Player Automatically Wins: If he has military control of
the provinces Corsica and Sardinia, AND control of the following
cities: Messana, Agrigentum, Panormus, Drepanum, Lilybaeum,
Lipara, and Melita. In addition, the player not allied to Syracuse,
must control Syracusa.The player allied to Syracuse cannot automatically win if the oppsoing player controls Syracusa
.

If Carthage is allied to Syracuse and Rome controls Syracusa, there is no auto victory for Carthage. Conversely, if Carthage is not allied to Syracuse, Carthage must control Syracusa to get the auto win.


That makes no sense... Sorry. The bold contradicts does it not?
What makes sense and is logical based on the other defining elements of "allied" status is that the Allied forces must control Syracuse along with the other conditions. That control is either via the ally of via direct Carthage control ?
 
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Agrippa Al wrote:
If Carthage is allied to Syracuse and Rome controls Syracusa, there is no auto victory for Carthage. Conversely, if Carthage is not allied to Syracuse, Carthage must control Syracusa to get the auto win.


Ok...here is a condition not contained in the above statement: What if Carthage is allied to Syracuse and Rome does NOT control Syracusa?

Doesn't this new blue ink phrase kick in (in Syracusa section page 36 - I've bolded it):

"Syracusa and the cities with Syracusan garrisons begins the game Allied to Carthage. These cities are considered Allied controlled cities and thus the rules in the City and Province Control section above apply.

I know we went around and around when we played it last year, but, we didn't have that critical blue/bolded phrase then (in the v2.0 with July 2013 rules).

Think we'll play it as written - that whoever is allied to Syracuse gets to count Syracusa (assuming, of course, no enemy force controls the city) towards AV. Otherwise, you get silly stuff - like attacking attacking your own allied Syracuse (and sending off Hiero on some mission to middle of nowhere).

----

Note to possible new Carthage players; don't less this discussion about the victory conditions scare you off. Be brave. arrrh Beefy, experiential wargames often require "rules clarifications" And, ALWAYS play with the most recent version of the living rules! In the case of this game, MUCH was clarified in the JUL 2013 v2.0. MUCH!
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Alan Ray
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Being allied to Syracuse and controlling the city of Syracusa are two different matters. The alliance changes only through:

Syracuse will change allegiance and become an ally of Rome at the
start of the game turn after one or both of the following occur:
• If, at the end of any game turn, the Roman player occupies Messana
with Legion SP and Messana is not Besieged, OR
• If, the Roman player defeats any Army led by Hiero in a battle


"In addition, the player not allied to Syracuse [here Rome]
must control Syracusa [to gain a Roman auto victory]. The player allied to Syracuse [here Carthage] cannot automatically win if the opposing player [here Rome} controls Syracusa."

Thus if Carthage is allied to Syracuse, and the Romans do not control Syracusa, they are eligible for the auto win. There is no Syracusa control requirement for the player allied to Syracuse.


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David Dockter
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Agrippa Al wrote:
Thus if Carthage is allied to Syracuse, and the Romans do not control Syracusa, they are eligible for the auto win.


Thanks Alan - crystal clear now. And here's some geekgold.

So, we Romans are on the verge of losing if the evil Carthaginian can take back the only city (Agrigentum) we control in Sicily at the moment. Eeegads! We'll have to hold that, or take another city, or start the conquest of Corsica/Sardinia immediately.

Another cool rule - is that Rome can't use Naval Transport (crossing the straits doesn't count) until Ostia & Neapolis are built to maximum capacity - something that takes 4? turns - Rome just achieved that last turn I believe.
 
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Alan Ray
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Keep in mind that auto victory does not kick in until the 260 BC turn.
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Noted.
 
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Herr Dr wrote:
Agrippa Al wrote:
Thus if Carthage is allied to Syracuse, and the Romans do not control Syracusa, they are eligible for the auto win.


Thanks Alan - crystal clear now. And here's some geekgold.

So, we Romans, are on the verge of losing if the evil Carthaginian can take back the only city (Agrigentum) we control in Sicily at the moment. Eeegads! We'll have to hold that, or take another city, or start the conquest of Corsica/Sardinia immediately.

Another cool rule - is that Rome can't use Naval Transport (crossing the straits doesn't count) until Ostia & Neapolis are built to maximum capacity - something that takes 4? turns - Rome just achieved that last turn I believe.

Yes lotsa cool rules here. Thanks for helping Alan - that clears things up nicely.
took a while for us to grok the Straits, landings, ability to leave a siege -mess that is Massana.

I also love the Legion disbanding rule. Make sure when you disband a legion to reduce all the units used as garrison down to appropriately.
 
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Yes, that disbanding rule certainly has a cost now that ALL garrisons everywhere must be reduced to city limits. Before, there didn't seem to be any cost to disbanding legions - surprised no political hit.
 
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I was wondering if it was ALL garrisons or just the units from the specific Legion?
It makes great historical sense.

 
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Great question: I thought ALL everywhere, but your view makes more sense. We'll play that way.

I have thought it could get gamey where you have a legion running around with 1 SP (to avoid the disband problem), but, that will hurt Rome's ability to recruit (harder to recruit more as the number in play increases).

Something that has been bothering me is supply on Sicily for the Romans. Carthage rules the waves early...Romans shouldn't be able to get supply from Italy across the straits in the face of Carthaginian fleet at Messana - shouldn't there be some attrition hit to Romans on Sicily? Or, was it difficult to blockade the straits? Just wondering.
 
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Herr Dr wrote:
Great question: I thought ALL everywhere, but your view makes more sense. We'll play that way.

I have thought it could get gamey where you have a legion running around with 1 SP (to avoid the disband problem), but, that will hurt Rome's ability to recruit (harder to recruit more as the number in play increases).

Something that has been bothering me is supply on Sicily for the Romans. Carthage rules the waves early...Romans shouldn't be able to get supply from Italy across the straits in the face of Carthaginian fleet at Messana - shouldn't there be some attrition hit to Romans on Sicily? Or, was it difficult to blockade the straits? Just wondering.

My understanding is they need a port. So Massana counts. Isnt that right? hmmm.
I know my opponent did not attempt to take on any other locations in Sicily when I took Massana turn 1, due to supply fears. He is waiting on fleet building in 260 or whenever it is.
 
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Just noticed that Agrigentum isn't a port cry ....and Romans don't control one in Sicily...so, what is the impact?

Reinforcements: Per 10.23 ...blue ink..."Legions outside Roman Italy must be in a province with a controlled or allied Secondary or Major Port to receive reinforcements"....

Attrition: no effect I can see. That's seems strange to me - Romans on Sicily with no port. I realize armies could sort of live off the land, but, Romans seemed to always go out of their way to secure lines of communication. How long could an army survive on Sicily with no external source of supply? Agains, just wondering... Maybe a house rule...they have to roll for siege attrition!
 
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Herr Dr wrote:
Just noticed that Agrigentum isn't a port cry ....and Romans don't control one in Sicily...so, what is the impact?

Reinforcements: Per 10.23 ...blue ink..."Legions outside Roman Italy must be in a province with a controlled or allied Secondary or Major Port to receive reinforcements"....

Attrition: no effect I can see. That's seems strange to me - Romans on Sicily with no port. I realize armies could sort of live off the land, but, Romans seemed to always go out of their way to secure lines of communication. How long could an army survive on Sicily with no external source of supply? Agains, just wondering... Maybe a house rule...they have to roll for siege attrition!

I'm no export on ancient logistics. However some reading indicates that most armies foraged. The big challenge was reinforcement and cycling counded back home etc. The baggage train had some provisions, but much of it was 'booty'...
no

not that booty.

So I can live with them being able to survive but NOT reinforce. Which was likely why my friend was wary of bringing his legions in.
I wish he had, as it is almost impossible to raise armies at the moment.
 
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Anyone got a book on logistical considerations for ancients armies?

Found this article:

http://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/pw/ancient-warfare/blog...

Based upon that article (without supplies from Rome, foraging increased losses and deteriorated health) and other items I have stumbled across, I think the siege attrition roll for being in Sicily without a friendly port {and by implication, enough absence of enemy control of the seas) house rule would make some sense.

And just stumbled across this...

http://www.realtechsupport.org/temp/IoT/texts/IoT_Logistics_...

and this:

Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army Paperback – December 29, 1980

"...Start with a mundane consideration: how do you feed your men? It's not as clear-cut as it might seem. Suppose you have an army of 10,000 men. Suppose, further, that each man's consumption rate is 3 pounds of grain per day's march. Now realize that this must mean just what the numbers tell you: each man of your 10,000 needs 3 pounds of grain daily, 3 times 10,000 is 30,000--so you need an incredible 30,000 pounds of food, each and every day. If you don't get this food, your men will weaken and die. There's no way around it. A quarter million pounds of food over the course of a week's march isn't easy to come by..."

And a trip planner for ancient Rome! http://orbis.stanford.edu/#

While maps can show us the territorial extent of the Roman Empire, the Stanford Geospatial Network Model of the Roman World, newly launched on the ORBIS website, brings the time and cost of moving people and goods between ancient cities sharply into modern view.

The ORBIS model simulates transportation around the giant network of cities, roads, rivers and sea lanes of the Roman Empire, in the conditions that existed around 200 AD. It is a magnificent intellectual undertaking which maps 4 million square miles of land and sea, 751 settlements, including 268 sea ports, 52,587 miles of road or desert tracks, and 17,567 miles of navigable rivers and canals; 900 sea routes around the Mediterranean, Black Sea and Atlantic coast take account of monthly wind conditions, currents and wave height. The model allows for sea travel at 2 sailing speeds, reflecting the likely range of Roman navigational capabilities, plus 14 different modes of road travel, including on foot, by ox cart, mule, camel caravan, horse with rider and army on the march.


The model’s data is based on documented historical sources and estimated seasonal weather conditions. The result is a Google Maps style application which produces the journey time, distance and cost of moving people and goods between 2 ancient locations.



One of the reasons I love meaty wargames; it pushes me to ask "why?" and then consume more related content (books, movies, etc.)
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Alan Ray
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I was wondering if it was ALL garrisons or just the units from the specific Legion? It makes great historical sense.


All detached SP in excess of city's IDS are removed per CR 9.9.



 
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