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A Song of Ice and Fief (fan expansion for Fief 1429)» Forums » General

Subject: A Song of Ice and Fief (a Fief 1429 re-theme) rss

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Sdric
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Proposition with minimal change :
- King landing does not belong to any fief
- Add a junction between Dragonstone and Kingslanding

(very closed to MordredPendragon)

BISHOP
1 : Warden of the north
2 : Warden of the West
3 : Warden of the East
4 : Warden of the Narrow Sea
5 : Warden of the South
Archbishop = Grand warden


A warden cannot officially represent a house in an alliance that why the wedding of a warden cannot be political.[/i]

CARDINALS :
Master of Coin, Master of Whisperers, Master of Laws
High Septon is the purchasable Cardinal card is now a bid with a minimal value of 5 deniers.
The High Septon obtain the power to dissolve marriage and banish (excommunicate).

POPE
Hand of the King candidate among the warden but cannot be the High Septon,
The Hand of the King act as regent if no king is elected and obtain the King power, however he cannot dissolve marriage and excommunicate.

Kingslanding gives a revenue of two Deniers but a revolt can always be played in Kingslanding.

TEUTONIC KNIGHT
Nightwatch order
- Nightwatch brother cannot attack other players (like templars)
- Always defend the wall even if no lord commander of the nightwatch is chosen
- No secret passage between castle witch seems anti-thematic.
- A Nightwatch brother obtain a free knight like the templar.
- Nigthwatch vow : No wedding and no fief title except Lord of the gift
- Lord commander = Grand master

TEMPLAR KNIGHT & RELICS:
I will try to play at least once with the proposed version before thinking of these extensions.

CRUSADE
Fight against the Wildling
Call to the crusade from the Bishop seems not thematic, I propose a new solution.
Each time a calamity does not hit the board* you add one objective on the wall.
*more than three calamities in the turn, 6 on the dice, same calamity in the same warden territory (Bishopric)
When a number of objective on the wall is equal to the number of player at the end of the turn a new phase 7 is resolved : "call from the Night watch"
"call from the Night watch" is played as a crusade. (No new objective on the wall during a game turn where the revenge of Mance Rayder (Salladin) will be play. At the end of the revenge of Mance Rayder, if all the free folk are not defeated each of the remain troops is distributed to the player as follow.
Starting with the reaming knight,
One of troops is given to the player that have sent the more troops on the wall.
One of troops is given to the each of two player that have sent the more troops on the wall, etc.
Until all the troops are distributed.

Then the player place these free folk troops anywhere on the map. A fight is immediately resolve free folk fight to death and install a siege if they do not have sufficient number of dice. If a lord is present in the besieged castle he can try an exit. If the free folk win a battle they destroy castle and mills and kills all the present Lord. They do not move during the following turn but defend themselves and do not allow passage.
Note: No one can ally with the free folk, but you can play a secret passage for them.

- Caravan and Tyr stay the same
- Arabian physician : greensight free folk (same power than the Arabian physician)
- Jaffa -> Rally wildings : 1 free Knight + 1 influence token
- Ascalon -> Rally free folk : 1 free Bombardes + 1 influence token
- Acre -> Rally a giant : A giant considered as a knight and a Trebuchet
- Victory Point objective : (Nightwatch brother are eligible to grab them)
- Chypre, Edesse, Antioche : 'Defender of the realms (x3)',
- Jerusalem : 'Horn of Winter owner', +1 denier all village
- Tripoli : 'Lord of the Gift' (considered as a Fief Title)
The last two can be transferred at the death of the title owner.


1 influence token can be discarded to have additionnal influence on a nomination (2 for warden or 1 for Hand of King/King or Lord Commander)



On the wall hierarchy :
King > Queen > Hand of the King > Lord commander of the Night Watch>Horn of Winter owner>Lord of the Gift > Defender of the realms > Brother of the Night watch> Fief title > Small council member > High septon > Wardens > Mother of the dragon> Other.
Equality are broken with the size of the army and then turn order.

HOUSE CHARACTER AND ATTENDANT/POWER

the beauty is the opposite of the ugly : To marry her the other family must pay you 2 deniers
STARK : Strategist
the bastard (Jon Snow)
the storm (Robb Stark)
the swift (Rickard Karstark) Lord of Karhold
the tyrant (Roose Bolton) Lord of the Dreadfort
the fearless (Greatjon Umber) Lord of Last Hearth
the cursed (Cathelyn Stark)
the beauty (Sansa Stark)
the good (Lady Maege Mormont) Lord of Bear Island

LANNISTER : Spy
the ugly (Tyrion Lannnister)
the cruel (Joffrey -Lannister-)
the cunning (Tywin Lannister)
the fearless (Jaime lannister)
the coward (Sandor Clegane)
the persuasive(Cersei Lannister)
the ordinary (Elys Westerling)
the ambitious (Dorna Swyft)

TYRELL : Minstrel
the blessed (Mace Tyrell)
the swift (Loras Tyrell) (could also be a "bastard")
the extravagant (Garlan Tyrell)
the cunning (Randyll Tarly)
the heart breacker (Garlan Tyrell)
the beauty (Maergery Tyrell)
the ugly (Queen of Thorns)
the unlucky (Talla Tarly)

BARATHEON : Bohemian
the good (Stannis Baratheon)
the extravagant (Renly Baratheon)
the storm (Ser Davos)
the ambitious (Salladhor Saan)
the bastard (Edric Strom)
the shadow (Melissandre)
the loyal (Brienne of tharth)
the ordinary (Selyse Baratheon)

MARTELL : Weather relic power in dorne
the extravagant (Oberyn Martell)
the bastard (Arys Oakheart),white guard
the persuasive (Beric Dayne) Lord of Starfall
the storm (Darkstar)
the tyrant (Manfrey Martell)
the heart breaker (Arianne Martell)
the ordinary (Larra Blackmont), Lady of Blackmont
the unlucky (Obara Sand)

ARRYN : Saint graal relic power in the Vale
the coward (Robbin Arryn)
the heart breaker (Lord Baylish)
the loyal (Marwyn Belmore)
the cursed (Vardis Eggen)
the fearless (Lyn Corbray)
the cruel (Lysa Arryn)
the unlucky (Anya Waynwood)
the tyrant (Ysilla Royce)

TULLY : Toll Collector
the cursed (Edmure Tully)
the persuasive (Brynden Tully) the Blackfish
the coward (Walder Frey)
the loyal (Clement Piper)
the shadow (Jason Mallister)
the blessed (Barbara Bracken)
the good (Mariya Darry)
the swift (Eleanor Mooton)

GREYJOY : Thief
the cunning (Theon Greyjoy)
the cruel (Euron Greyjoy) the "Crow's Eye".
the shadow (Victarion Greyjoy)
the strom (Aeron Greyjoy), the "Damphair".
the ugly (Dagmar Cleftjaw)
the ambitious (Asha Greyjoy)
the beauty (Gysella Goodbrother)
the blessed (Gwynesse Harlaw)

TARGARYAN : start with Mother of the dragon card in hand (OF ARC)
the cruel (Vyseris Targaryen)
the loyal (Ser Jormont)
the cursed (Khal Drogho)
the fearless (Jogho)
the extravagant (Illyrio Mopatis)
the persuasive (Daenerys Targaryen)
the ordinary (Jhiqui)
the unlucky (Irri)

Rules summary
 

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Ivan Alaiz
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I like sdrics brief and I have changed my mind back to the "agnostic" theme I want to restric the changes to a minimun though.

BISHOP
1 : Warden of the north
2 : Warden of the West
3 : Master of coin (taxes the main land within direct reach of kings landing)
4 : Warden of the East
5 : Warden of the South
Archbishop = Grand warden

A warden cannot officially represent a house in an alliance that why the wedding of a warden cannot be political.

CARDINALS :
Grand Maester, Master of Whisperers, Master of Laws
High Septon is the purchasable Cardinal card is now a bid with a minimal value of 5 deniers.

The High Septon obtain the power to dissolve marriages.

POPE
Hand of the King candidate among the warden but cannot be the High Septon, He can still excommunicate (will change the term to something else, as banish to the wall is no longer an option there must be other punishments available...) still gives Victory Point + small council (cardinal) cards cannot be played without his consent and tithe the whole realm.

I think we can make the crusade rules closer to the original ones. I like pendragon proposed map better as it respects the colors a bit more, although kings landing not belonging to any fief is an interesting idea, but it moes it farther from vanilla and I want to avoid it when possible.

On the connexions pendragon proposes, with each new connection there is an implication on how easy it is to defend a place, with the change in the north it just became so much easier as the connection to one of the cities just went from the riverlands sphere of influence to the north.

My crusade rules proposal, the objectives will not be cards, will be directly printed on the board (cheaper to print to play and less hassle), there can be 2 reasons to have a wall turn: An event card (attacck on the wall) or another random method if that is unblancing or if the hand of the king decides that he has"received a raven from the North"

On the wall phase it will be randomly decided where the wildings attack they attack a number of objectives equal to the number of lords. As each attack is made on sequence instead of the wilding tokens I will create a tracker on the board itself that counts the number of wilding troops in each attack.

The objectives themselves I would like to have a closer look on what scdric proposed and will probably use I would like to leave it as mechanically untouched as possible main 2 changes: Some caravan payouts in troops instead of deniers as sdric proposed (We might also keep some denier payment as "Iron bank envoy"), only 1 title gained (the gift) the others are just the VP "defender of the wall".

The targaryen power seems overpowered to me... but I really cant judge as I have not played... I would attach it to Daenerys (so only works if she is drawn instead of an attribute) and I would keep Targaryen only available for the last player to choose placement in the game with freedom of starting village, needs to be a coastal place though (the other houses start each in one of the 8 fiefdoms...)

I have some trouble with he targaryen lords as again it does not temathically fit for some to hold fiefdoms but I dont know how to fit it. We could use the characterss that appear in the 5th book (dont remember the name of the guy that crosses over back to westeros)

We are reaching a point where the bigger areas have been discussed and the actual photoshop work begins to make this into a print&play retheme.

I need help and I am looking for volunteers. I am trying to be smart to be able to play with the minimun printing (hence the change in wall mechanics implementation so no new tokens need to be printed)

There are basically the following work packages:

- The Board (I am already working on this one)
- The Character Cards (64 cards to be created, art to be found... I have already looked into art possibilities but it will take some time
- The manual (basically re creating the base manual text with all the vocabulary and rules changes, marking those places where we veer away from vanilla)
- The family play mats 9 of them this is a relatively easy one
- The playtesting of the changes (Which I obviouslly cannot do but)

Any volunteers? please PM me :-)


 
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Sebastian Samberg
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-a-4JJhyFNlB4yU5fQ1O...

The above link is one of 'dem nifty spreadsheets. I hope you haven't done that already. It contains the latest version of Sdric's character-trait-combinations. I gave each trait a value (1 if it's good, 0 if two-edged/neutral, -1 of bad). You can change these values in the uppermost table and the formulas will change them in the house calculations. You'll get the idea.

Moving on...

Bishoprics, Cardinals and Pope
You are right, wardens and small council members are more thematic and fun than the Faith and I am now convinced that this choice is better. The explanation why the wardens cannot marry seems a bit far-fetched, but I can get over that.
However, there is still a major issue:
Why does the King have no say whatsoever in the choice of wardens, council members and the Hand of the King? And why can't they become King themselves?
How about giving the veto right to the King, and only if there is no (player) King does the Hand get it? Question is, whether the King can veto the election of the Hand. Of course, you can always "persuade" the King/Hand to acknowledge you to the small council.

Regarding the powers of the council members and the hand, I'd say that only one of them should be able to dissolve marriages. So either there is an "explicit" High Septon or the Hand has him under his thumb.

Crusade
I haven't delved deep enough into the Crusade rules yet, but it seems that the two of you are making good progress without my input. I especially like the idea of getting a giant unit!

@Sdric:
What's this talk of influence tokens? Are they a part of the Crusade Expansion or did you make them up? If the latter, then the idea seems interesting but is also a significant departure from vanilla. Not that I dislike it, but it would take careful consideration whether to include it or not.
In other things, I think your table about the various titles says that the King can levy a "Royal tax on any fief with a Lord" when it should be "without a Lord"

Board
You are right M0ebius, my v2 makes the north too strong.
The green town of bishopric #1 should be moved to the Stoney Shore (as in Sdrics latest suggestion). That makes the warden title of the north more sensible and avoid having two Flint's Fingers. I will arrange it thus shortly.


 
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Ivan Alaiz
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First

Thx for the spreadsheet, I had the same idea I will review it and try to make the scale a bit bigger based in the experience of people I know that have played the game to provide further balance.

Theme
I dont mind the explanation of why wardens cannot marry... the fact is that we might end up marrying characters that are already married acordign to the theme anyhow...

I dont like the veto idea as it is a new mechanic (unluess it existed and I did not know about it) but if you look at the last two kings of westeros (joffrey and tommen) they really had little say on who got in and who did not...

Board

I tried to fiddle with your proposals, I am ok with changing some roads that make sense but I want to keep the rule that each node has at least 1 connection from another fiefdom, that makes it always necessary to defend each node.

The other thing I dont like but I have not figured any way around it is not having a village in dragonstone...

I agree with Sdrics suggestion as well, one of the green nodes needs to go in flints finger, its thematic according to the greyjoy invasion as well (asha captures that node early enough)

 
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Sebastian Samberg
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Theme

Marrying already married characters is also troublesome, though, granted, changing the "clergy" cannot marry rule is not necessary, as I said. Still, I think the fact that the King has as of now no influence at all on his own wardens and council cannot just be glossed over. Every game of this is a "What-if" scenario. And if, for instance, Tywin Lannister was to become King, he would not abide with just any council. Another issue: What if the house of the King and the house of the Hand are at war? I strongly believe that there needs to be some influence of the King (if there is one) on the wardens, council, etc. That does require some changes or additions of rules, but would otherwise be too big a thematic rift.

So how about giving the King the right to vote on the Hand, making him a cardinal for that purpose? Or maybe he cannot vote, but only he can nominate people for the election (maybe for a small fee ).

That said, it's still your re-theme/variant. So it's your call.

Board

In the vanilla layout all but the duchies (fiefs with four towns) follow the rule you mention (each node has at least one connection from another fief). In the duchies there is one node that is only connected to the other nodes of the same duchy. With my v1 suggestion that is changed in the Riverlands. There, the formerly internal-only node is now connected to the other duchy (Westerlands). Therefore, the Riverlands become harder to defend. But I think that is ok because only now (together with the new connection to King's Landing) they have the same number of connections to outside fiefs like the Westerlands (namely five). So, to cut a long story short, I think the changes there are well legitimized.

Not having Dragonstone is indeed a flaw of the layout, but the only ways to change that would be not to have Storm's End and thus the whole Stormlands or to overhaul the complete layout, which I am reluctant to do.
I did move the green #1 node to the Stoney Shore now. Another simple change would be to move the red #1 node into the Riverlands to represent the actual political boundaries, yet that would run counter to the idea of #1 being the Wardendom (?) of the North. Apart from that, I think it can be glossed thematically with the aforementioned close connection between the Tullys and the Starks. It is not the worst of stretches.
 
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Sdric
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The other thing I dont like but I have not figured any way around it is not having a village in dragonstone...

If we allow some connexion change here are my two proposal with and without Dragonstone

Green road is new road
Dot black is the road i want to remove
Double arrow are bridges.


To be able to have Dragonstone, I need to use one village from the Tully to be Kingslanding. Therefore I remove Kinglanding from any Fief
Here come the idea that Kinglanding give a revenue of 2 deniers.

Without dragonstone I change the main village of the warden to be Kinglanding.

The change of road are to keep each village connected but not too connected.

What's this talk of influence tokens?
The influence token is a new mechanism to propose new ''Crusade objective''. I think it will also reduce the time to play the game, witch is good.
 
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Sebastian Samberg
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Just reposting my current gliffy status. Inspired by Sdric, I redirected some nodes in the Riverlands so that there is again a node with no connexions to other fiefs (as is the case in vanilla).

Pros: Vanilla status of duchy reestablished, northernmost Riverlands node is now Greywater Watch (makes a bit more sense than Moat Cailin while still making sense in belonging to the Warden of the North), blue fief rearranged so that we still have Moat Cailin, the Twins now fulfill their thematic purpose of splitting to road in the rough directions Westerlands and King's Landing.

Cons: You have to go via The Twins to reach Riverrun from Harrenhal

 
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YP
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I'm following this retheme with a lot of interest, since Game of Thrones is just perfect for Fief, and face it, France in 1429 is kinda boring.

If you want to be successful with this, I think it's best to take it step by step. First of all it's always easier to make the theme fit the existing mechanics than to rebalance new mechanics invented to better fit the theme. Don't underestimate the 100's of hours that went into balancing the game. Changing even small stuff can render this retheme unplayable and all your work for nothing. So just start by seeing how much theme you can fit into just the existing mechanics, and only when something is really out of place, I'd try a small mechanical alteration if it would *really* help the theme, but probably not.

Second, I would just focus on the base game before throwing out all kinds of ideas about the expansions. If you want to do this right, just the base game will be lots of work. Fortunately there is a large amount of really good artwork available from the Fantasy Flight GoT LCG I think, so it's possible to make this all look really good.

I'd really like to help as well but at the moment I'm working on a GoT Coup retheme and brushing up on my Photoshop skills to make that awesome. But this has the potential to become a big hit!
 
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Sdric
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yorvog wrote:

If you want to be successful with this, ...
I agree, for the crusade we should not change the objective yet.

We have plenty of work to transform the Teutonic in the Nightwatch.

Remark about warden, we should not name one of the warden Master of the coin. Master should stay to replace Cardinal title

For the Board, a solution to have Dragonstone.






 
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Ivan Alaiz
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yorvog wrote:
I'm following this retheme with a lot of interest, since Game of Thrones is just perfect for Fief, and face it, France in 1429 is kinda boring.

If you want to be successful with this, I think it's best to take it step by step. First of all it's always easier to make the theme fit the existing mechanics than to rebalance new mechanics invented to better fit the theme.

Second, I would just focus on the base game before throwing out all kinds of ideas about the expansions.

I agree but actually some of the expansions are needed to make the better fit (with no change rules at all) like the politics expansion.

Night watch will still be an optional, as it is in the base game.

The wall should not be an optional though, its an intrinsic part of the theme, I am mostly proposing a change of the implementation of the mechanics but not on the mechanics itself:

Cards (randomly drawn) --> Fixed locations on the wall randomly rolled
Muslim troop tokens --> Tracker printed on the board
The first change Caravan Objectives --> Wall objectives with the denier reward in the form of troops instead of deniers
Location objectives:
Jerusalem --> Castle Black Title of defender of the realm + iron bank "loan" (Jerusalem income)
Chypres, Eddesse, tripoli, antioche --> Title Protector of castle XXX (1 VP )
Medic --> Wilding/forest folk healer or whatever

Second change Call to crusade: Pope can still do it (hand of the king), instead of cardinals being able to call it is a random mechanic (either a roll or built into the event cards)

No rules change there save for transforming money into troops and call to crusade mechanic.

The other optional included are 2 of the relics, diminished in power as they are fixed to a fiefdom.

The main changes are on the base game not the expansions, mainly around the pope role and might change the map, if the map is changed all the main rules will be kept:

- Amount of cities in each concrete fiefdom and bishopric
- Amount of conexions from each city
- At l east 1 connexion to a different fiefdom
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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sdric wrote:

Remark about warden, we should not name one of the warden Master of the coin. Master should stay to replace Cardinal title


Pros

1- It makes sense to have the master of coin taxing the land, more than the wardens.
2- There is no warden of the narrow sea (AFAIK), we do away with something that does not fit the theme
3- That bishorpric is the richest one and covers kings anding which makes sense from a thematic perspective

Cons

1- Why master of coin elected by the village voices? makes little sense
2- More difficult to explain, making all wardens is simpler

I see your point the cons may outweight the pros here.
 
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Sdric
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Issue with the retheme
Making the Pope effectively the Hand and the bishops wardens leads to some rather strange thematic consequences :
- Why would the wardens (or small council members) be excluded from becoming king when they are actually among the most likely candidates for that office.
- Why should the Hand of the King get the tithes of the Faith and not the King, if indeed anyone from the political establishment.
- Why would the small council, and not the king, determine the Hand ?
- What if the house of the King and the house of the Hand are at war ?
- The relation of the Small Council and the King : The fact that the King has as of now no influence at all on his own wardens and council cannot just be glossed over.

In terms of gameplay the road to VP with the pope and the road to VP with the King should stay separate.
The way I see it if the King is powerful enough to choose a powerful ally as its hand, he win the game (If the King and the pope are in the same alliance you usually win the game)
In these time of war, where everybody proclaims himself King, the King will be the more credible (Robb Stark, King of the North rather than Joffrey Baratheon).
The Hand of the King will be the most influential character (Tywin Lannister). Lannister and Stark are at war.

- The areas that have wardens in Westeros more or less coincide with the political borders between the different regions. Thus, the Lord Paramount of X would usually also be the Warden of X.
Most of the time It will be the case as it is an election based on the number of village you control.

- all of the characters must be thematically able to marry
Form the actual list of character, if the timeline is just after Eddard Stark death (Cathelyn is a widow)
The following character cannot thematically able to marry :
STARK
- Rickard Karstark and Greatjon Umber, not even sure her wifes still alive
LANNISTER
- Jaime Lannister (whiteguard), he could renonce is vow,
- Dorna Swyft (wife of Kevan Lannister), another suggestion ?
TYRELL
- Mace Tyrell, Garlan Tyrell, Randyll Tarly have spouses
BARATHEON
- Stannis Baratheon, Ser Davos and Selyse Baratheon
MARTELL
- Manfrey Martell has a wife
-Larra Blackmont has two kid but no mention of her husband
ARRYN
- Ysilla Royce
TULLY
- Walder Frey (one more spouse seems not to be an issue)
- Clement Pipper Jason Mallister has kids but no mention of their wife
- Mariya Darry (spouse Merrett Fray)
GREYJOY
Everyone can marry
TARGARYAN
If the timeline is before the weeding between Daenerys et Khal Drogo
Everyone can marry

see : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-a-4JJhyFNlB4yU5fQ1O...


- "saint" as an attribute
Introduce relic in attribute and in game is not a good idea, I will drop this idea (Two Graals ?)
By the way the Graal is very powerfull, the Arryn power should be limited to his castle and city.
 
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YP
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I would never leave out Ned Stark. You want to be able to play out 'what if' scenarios with games like this. What if Ned Stark allied with the Lannisters? It seems completely unthematic but that's the fun! Role players can always play like how they think it 'should' happen, but there's no need to mechanically limit those options for more adventurous players. About marrying, just don't put couples in the game and add no restrictions; so if you add Ned Stark don't add Catelyn (since nobody cares about her), and then if you want to marry Ned Stark to Cersei Lannister you should - awesome! Also nobody cares if Umber or Manfred Martell has a wife; I would keep it simple.
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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sdric wrote:
Issue with the retheme

"saint" as an attribute
Introduce relic in attribute and in game is not a good idea, I will drop this idea (Two Graals ?)
By the way the Graal is very powerfull, the Arryn power should be limited to his castle and city.

The relic mechanic is reused for a different purpose, I never had the intention of playing with relics on top of that and I think that it add a lot of "thematic" value, after all characters stand apart thx to their abilities.

So just to clarify what my proposal is:

1- No relics retrievable these are not to co-exist with relics but to be instead of.
2- (advisor-like power)Relic like power in erye/vale (whatever is more balanced)
3- (advisor-like power)Relic like power in dorne (wheather)
4- (attribute-like power) Catelyn: She (and only she) can revive once
5- (attribute like power) Melisandre gains the lance if she wins the castle black ((jerusalem) objective in the wall
6 - (attribute-like power) Maergery tyrell can cancel famine once

yorvog wrote:
I would never leave out Ned Stark. You want to be able to play out 'what if' scenarios with games like this. What if Ned Stark allied with the Lannisters? It seems completely unthematic but that's the fun! Role players can always play like how they think it 'should' happen, but there's no need to mechanically limit those options for more adventurous players. About marrying, just don't put couples in the game and add no restrictions; so if you add Ned Stark don't add Catelyn (since nobody cares about her), and then if you want to marry Ned Stark to Cersei Lannister you should - awesome! Also nobody cares if Umber or Manfred Martell has a wife; I would keep it simple.

I see your point, I removed ned as the timeline was to set it just after his death (as there was no war before) but I think you are right,by the way the entire point on having targaryens was to play the what if daenerys had crossed with her dothraki to westeros. I would rather play her as a widow though so she can marry, targaryen does not have that many females...

On the marriabilty, as marriage is a big thing (alliance mechanics) we need to be sure that people can effectively marry, to that extent we have 5 males and 3 "marriable" females per house thats why catelyn is a must... I agree that we can be lax with the retheme but the queen of thrones will count as a bastard (too old to marry) as well as Jaimie Lannister.


Overall I agree to sepparate Theme from "Historical narrative accuracy" we need to focus on being able to play on the ASoIaF universe not on replaying once and again the events that the Author wrote.
 
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M0ebius wrote:

I see your point, I removed ned as the timeline was to set it just after his death (as there was no war before) but I think you are right,by the way the entire point on having targaryens was to play the what if daenerys had crossed with her dothraki to westeros. I would rather play her as a widow though so she can marry, targaryen does not have that many females...

On the marriabilty, as marriage is a big thing (alliance mechanics) we need to be sure that people can effectively marry, to that extent we have 5 males and 3 "marriable" females per house thats why catelyn is a must... I agree that we can be lax with the retheme but the queen of thrones will count as a bastard (too old to marry) as well as Jaimie Lannister.


Overall I agree to sepparate Theme from "Historical narrative accuracy" we need to focus on being able to play on the ASoIaF universe not on replaying once and again the events that the Author wrote.

Okay, I get your point, but consider the following scenario. I take it you're not going to change the whole king-queen-crown heir mechanic... Let's say you're playing tyrell and you married Margery off to Joffrey (king) to make Margaery queen. If I understand the rules correctly (and correct me if I'm wrong) the next lord you play will be crown heir, suggesting the new lord is the baby of the royal couple. Say you draw queen of thorns and play her, she will essentially be Margaerys and Joffreys child (weird I know). And if she's been born after Margaery how can she be too old to marry? So it seems to me unless you want to overhaul a lot of rules, the theme isn't going to hold anyway.
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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S**t, you are right, I did not foresee that one...

We might need to have a sepparate character in each deck for that situation.

Edit: One single card called "The prince" would do. Set aside the board and only used if a heir is produced, easy fix!

A generic character called "The prince" or something similar would do.
The drawing of a child and the throne (from an attribute perspective he/she is ordinary).
 
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Sdric
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Teutonic knight as the Nightwatch

My proposition :

What remains :
* Grand master = Lord commander = 1 VP & Nightwatch Knight +1f
* Only single male without title can become Brother of the NightWatch
* Never marry
* Nightwatch stronghold are immune to upraising and secret passage (recruitment center of the Nightwatch)
* Cannot sponsored an assassination

The +
* Can be a renegade, banish or captured when become brother
* Free without paying a ransom when captured
* Remove an eventual assassin, banish and renegade token when becoming a brother
* Obtain a free Nightwatch Knight when becoming a brother
* cannot be banished

The -
* must respond a call the wall even if there are no Lord commander
* no title except the one gain fighting Wildling
* Brother and Nightwatch Knight cannot attack any other player but defend himself
* Nightwatch Knight cannot move without a brother of the Nightwatch and cannot attack another player.
* No secret passage between Stronghold

It seems that the + compensate the -.
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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I like it! Just 1 comment:

sdric wrote:
Teutonic knight as the Nightwatch...

...
* Can be a renegade, banish or captured when become brother
* Free without paying a ransom when captured
...
* cannot be banished


My only but would be on captured characters to join the watch, if they are captured they are captured, changing that would mean creating an artificial way of retrieving the character.

The rest is great and its effectively no changes (AFAIK) as the NW vow has the same effect as being excomunicated already (no title, no marriage...)

What are the rules for banishment? I have not found these...
 
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Sdric
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Banishment = Excommunication (to fit the theme) that allow to Become lord commander without interference of the hand of the King.

Become a brother of the night-watch is a way to retrieve for free a captured character but he need to be a single male lord without title to be able to use this option.
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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sdric wrote:
Banishment = Excommunication (to fit the theme) that allow to Become lord commander without interference of the hand of the King.

Become a brother of the night-watch is a way to retrieve for free a captured caracter but he need to be a single male lord without titre to be able to use this option.

Fully agree on the first one but not on the second as captured characters are not freed when becoming templars or knghts in the vanilla game, I want to keep as close to vanilla as possible from a mechanics perspective.
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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So After reviewing in depth all your proposals I came up with mine, heavily based on yours BTW



I Will re-do the map with the one in the right, I think that the changes are minimal and balanced, namely:

Dragonstone moved from the Vale fief to the "Crownlands+stormlands" fief

Connexions rearranged respecting the overall conectivity of the fiefdoms (and the fiefdom internal nodes).

The erye has got one more connection than it used to and its easier to reach from the north but its additional exposure is compensated by the arryn house ability (holy grail in the vale)

The single biggest strategic change introduced is the connexion between kings landing and Harrenhal, it was a serious theme break not to have these two connected and the other changes in the roads worsened this situation (they went from being 3 moves appart to 4)

The impact is very big we connected two fiefdoms that did not have a connexion before making several nodes more vulnerable to attack. A connection to drangonstone has been added to Kings landing so it can be reinforced a bit faster, this also puts more pressure on the tullys the only way to compensate for that was to add one more connection to the tullys internal node so they can also reinforce in a single turn from the north.

I was sorely tempted to make kings landing a Fief independent city as Sdric suggested (and use harrenhal node for that) but I finally thought it would lead us too far away from vanilla, there are no fiefless cities there.
 
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Sdric
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Two things
- Kinglandins having 5 connections is too much
Remove one of them
not with Tyrell or Martell these House will be too powerful
not with Tully, that is the new connection you want to create.
My guess is to remove the one with dragonstone,
An attack on Kinglanding from Dragonstone can be made using a secret passage on Stormend.

If you change Dragonstone to be in the same Fief as Kingslanding and Storm-end, you need also to change the warden region border.
None of the warden should have only two fiefs and none of the warden should have an entire 3 village fief inside.
Meaning Dragonstone need to be part of Warden 3 and one of Highgarden , Bitterbridge and/or Harrenhal must be part of Warden 4 (your choice).

Note : If after some playtest the Tully are too vulnerable, we can add them more positive attribute like persuasive, fearless, storm and swift



 
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Ivan Alaiz
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sdric wrote:
Two things
- Kinglandins having 5 connections is too much
Remove one of them
not with Tyrell or Martell these House will be too powerful
not with Tully, that is the new connection you want to create.
My guess is to remove the one with dragonstone,
An attack on Kinglanding from Dragonstone can be made using a secret passage on Stormend.

I thought having and added connection "intra fief" would be a benefit not a flaw as movement is faster. Probably will just remove that one

sdric wrote:

If you change Dragonstone to be in the same Fief as Kingslanding and Storm-end, you need also to change the warden region border.
None of the warden should have only two fiefs and none of the warden should have an entire 3 village fief inside.


You are absolutely right and I did not foresee that one. At this point I am more inclined to drop the idea of having dragonstone as a village as the amount of change just starts piling up (butterfly effect).
 
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Sebastian Samberg
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On latest board suggestions

Sdric's:
Good work, but I'm afraid both have their flaws. In the left one it is rather unthematic that Dragonstone should belong to the Vale fiefdom, even more so than that Moat Cailin or Greywater Watch belong to the Riverlands imho. And I feel there needs to be a road from KL northwards. Those big gaps in the original layout are really hard to stop from breaking what would make thematic sense in Westeros, but I think that cutting this one in "half" would be alright.

In the right one the change of the Vale to a barony and of the Crown/Stormlands to a county is quite a large step. Probably more so than only connecting KL to the Riverlands.
Nevertheless, I would say it is definetly an option. Actually I think the Vale is really rather a barony than a county. It's not that rich in soil or ores I believe. But with all map changes (mine included of course) I have no idea how they impact balance.
Eventually it will probably need playtesting, though that is hard to do I fear.

M0ebius's:
I, too, believe that five connexions are too much for KL. It needs the one to the Riverlands so I second the notion of dropping the one to Dragonstone. I am no playtester, and indeed have never even once played the game, but I think that a triangular connexion like KL-DS-SE is quite powerful defensewise. It certainly would be another largish departure from vanilla structures. It is not exactly thematic why you have to go via SE to reach DS from KL, but that is a negligible inaccuracy imo.
More and more I think that the Vale -> Barony and Crown/Stormlands -> County thing is a good one, under the caveat that it probably needs playtesting or at least the judgement of a playtester/developer/designer. As Sdric pointed out the bishopric lines also have to be somewhat rearranged, according to the vanilla principles. Imo his version of giving the northernmost Reach node to #4 and Dragonstone to #3 should do the trick.

Actually, maybe we could reach out to Academy Games, Asyncron, or even Philippe Mouchebeuf himself and request their input, especially on the balance of our layout changes. That is, if you haven't done that already anyway.

 
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Ivan Alaiz
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MordredPendragon wrote:
On latest board suggestions

Imo his version of giving the northernmost Reach node to #4 and Dragonstone to #3 should do the trick.


Just updated the map, with that change the bishopric 3 would cover four fiefdoms instead of three... to compensate that I moved one of the lannister villages from bishopric 3 to 2, Lannister still has a node on
another bishopric... so it is balanced but the change is not minimal...

I think we need to drop dragonstone from the map... I dont see any other practical way around it although I will keep looking into it for a little bit more.

Edit: Update- Created an entire new proposal on the right, from scratch keeping main map directives.
 
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