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A Song of Ice and Fief (fan expansion for Fief 1429)» Forums » General

Subject: A Song of Ice and Fief (a Fief 1429 re-theme) rss

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Christoph Wolf
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Wow, I just found this thread. I thought I had subscribed to the whole Fief forum but I left out the variants ^^

I like the idea of a re-theme, even though some of your ideas go to far for my taste (nightwatch lords? travelling through the contry with their armies?) but that's mainly expansion stuff and everybody can take it or leave it. To me the main thing are the map and the characters and I think your doing a great job there.
Just one thing I saw you had not thought of is the fact that by giving every family their own stack of character cards the situation could occure that every player is at their maximum of 4 lords and none has got a female family member. Also the game normaly doesn't allow for more than 18 lords and ladies to be in play, you would allow for up to 24 in a 6 player game. And where do you put the cardinal cards? has every player one in their stack?
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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CJWF wrote:


I like the idea of a re-theme, even though some of your ideas go to far for my taste (nightwatch lords? travelling through the contry with their armies?) but that's mainly expansion stuff and everybody can take it or leave it.

As you said, the night watch will be optional (the wall/crusades should not as these are a big part of the theme), as you will see on the thread there are some compromises we have to do with the theme to adjust the mechanics without changing them, nighwatch lords do travel the realm recruiting people for the wall... but they dont "occupy villages" nor work for their former house that is true.


CJWF wrote:

Just one thing I saw you had not thought of is the fact that by giving every family their own stack of character cards the situation could occure that every player is at their maximum of 4 lords and none has got a female family member. Also the game normaly doesn't allow for more than 18 lords and ladies to be in play, you would allow for up to 24 in a 6 player game. And where do you put the cardinal cards? has every player one in their stack

Well, in fact we did, and if you read carefully my first post it is explained there.

M0ebius wrote:


Cardinal Cards --> Council seats: Master of whispers, Master of laws... The purchaseable council seat (no longer a direct purchase but a bid with a minumun 5 denier) is the High septon which will take the marriage dissolving power from the hand of the king when purchased, until that moment the high septon is just a puppet on the hands of the hand.

Houses in order to provide flavour to the houses I will use the politics expansion, and also alter a bit the game mechanics (without altering the odds):

Lords and Characters: The characters deck instead of having named lords will have some cards reading " Its a boy! (image of a baby boy) or "Its a girl!" (Image of a baby girl). Then each house will have two decks of characters (male and female) and players will take a random character from either deck depending on the "lord" card drawn. Each Character will have a noble attribute, for example Lannister places an "its a boy" card, draws the card on top of his male characters deck and its Joffrey! (cruel) the final attributes are still open see the discussion below.

This way we get the flavour without changing the mechanics of the vanilla game using the politics expansion (the attributes deck becomes the characters deck), the only difference is that the odds of drawing specific noble attributes varies from house to house and the same attribute may be repeated but this is mitigated by creating a suitable pool of characters for each house (8)


The lord deck structure does not change nor the probabilities of having a female, in fact the probabilities of having a bastard female almost dissapear as the randomization of the attributes is more balanced now than in vanilla

Cardinal cards are also as in vanilla but renamed (again as posted before )
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Christoph Wolf
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Your right of course. Until I finished reading the whole thread I forgot what was said in the beginning
 
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Sdric
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M0ebius wrote:

I think we need to drop dragonstone from the map... I dont see any other practical way around it although I will keep looking into it for a little bit more.

I take your suggestion of Gulltown for the Eyries :
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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New version, see the right proposal, done from scratch keeping the main board characteristics as described but with more freedom, Main difference is that I made pyle part of the north to separate the stormlands from the crownlands into 2 fiefdoms.

What do you think?

Also updated middle map with some suggestions seen here.

 
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Sdric
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@ M0ebius
- Middle map :
Same as mine except a road in the Eyrie in the riverland and a change of warden region of one of the lannister city (Golden tooth)

I prefer my choice :
- a road Greywater watch-GullTown (via White Harbor) is more probable than a road Greywater watch-Eyrie
- I do not like the triangle Riverrun, Harenhal, Twin (too connected)
- Why change the affiliation of the Golden tooth node ?
No more 7 modes warden region, Lannister stronger in this region (3/5 nodes, rather than 2/4)

- Right map :
The north is too strong, warden of the north only two color
I will add the Eyrie to this warden and KingLanding in the warden 4
I do not like the connexion in Dorne
Sunspear-Starfall-Wyl-Mistwood (a circle of 4 nodes) None exist in the original map.
I will connect Wyl with Stormend rather that Mistwood



About crusade (Wildling)
In crusade Christian troops attack Muslim city
In GoT Wildlings troops attach Westeros Troops.
How do we justify to fight against Wildling fortification ?
Two propositions :
1) We assume Wildling has take a wall fortification, and we need to retake it
2) We change the mechanism, Wildling has giant that operate as Siege engine on the first round we have a choice to barricade (adding fortification) or make an exit hoping to destroy the giant before reinforcement of the second round comes.
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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sdric wrote:
@ M0ebius
- Middle map :
Same as mine except a road in the Eyrie in the riverland and a change of warden region of one of the lannister city (Golden tooth)

I prefer my choice :
- a road Greywater watch-GullTown (via White Harbor) is more probable than a road Greywater watch-Eyrie

Agreed, makes more sense even if it is an additional change.

sdric wrote:
@ M0ebius
- Why change the affiliation of the Golden tooth node ?
No more 7 modes warden region, Lannister stronger in this region (3/5 nodes, rather than 2/4)


If we dont change that affiliation there will be a bishopric intersecting with four different fiefdoms instead of three, with the change I prevent that, I think that moving from 7/4 to 6/5 cities per bishopric is an acceptable change.

sdric wrote:
@ M0ebius

- Right map :
The north is too strong, warden of the north only two color
I will add the Eyrie to this warden and KingLanding in the warden 4
I do not like the connexion in Dorne
Sunspear-Starfall-Wyl-Mistwood (a circle of 4 nodes) None exist in the original map.
I will connect Wyl with Stormend rather that Mistwood


You are right on the north, with the last changes I missed that one and updated according to your suggestions have a look!


sdric wrote:
@ M0ebius
About crusade (Wildling)
...
1) We assume Wildling has take a wall fortification, and we need to retake it
2) We change the mechanism, Wildling has giant that operate as Siege engine on the first round we have a choice to barricade (adding fortification) or make an exit hoping to destroy the giant before reinforcement of the second round comes.


I thought I had already posted this before, we will use the vanilla rules with a different justification, so, on the "attack" the wildings have a benefit due to the wall being unprepared, the wildings attacing also from the gifr having crossed the wall as in the books, plus giants... etc. All that give the same benefit to the wildings as if they were on a fortification and the "southrerners" were not. On the second round basically the lords can benefit from the wall fortifications.
 
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Sdric
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M0ebius wrote:

sdric wrote:
@ M0ebius
- Why change the affiliation of the Golden tooth node ?
No more 7 modes warden region, Lannister stronger in this region (3/5 nodes, rather than 2/4)


If we dont change that affiliation there will be a bishopric intersecting with four different fiefdoms instead of three, with the change I prevent that, I think that moving from 7/4 to 6/5 cities per bishopric is an acceptable change.

In the original map, bishopric 1 has 7 villages from 4 fiefdoms.
Now in your map the two fiefdom with 2 village is too close, 2 VP controlling only 4 villages !!
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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Point taken, I did not notice that one. Will revert to your proposal basically and implement that one.
 
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Sdric
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List of what we need as the new art :

- New Boardgame including the wall
- New rules
- New Character deck (18 lord+3 small council+mother of the dragon)
- A character deck for each house (8 character x8 House=48)
- 8 House board
- 8 helping rule summary
- 2 new colour of troops tokens (to be able to play any 6 of 8 house)
- A token for each Lord (48+2 Princes = 50)
- Wildling troops + Mance Rayder (including giant ?)
- New title counter counter
5 Valyrian blade for warden,
4 pins for small council,
1 pin for hand of the king,
2 crown for the fief title beyond the wall,
3 token for defender of the wall,
4 black capes counter for the Brother of the Night's watch,
1 pin for the Lord commander.

What will be our suggestion for printing of heavy carton for the lord token ?
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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sdric wrote:
List of what we need as the new art :
- New Boardgame including the wall: WIP, will also include placeholders for the cards
- New rules: Text WIP, "making it pretty in publisher" not started
- New Character deck (18 lord+3 small council+mother of the dragon) WIP
- A character deck for each house (8 character x8 House=48) Its actually 9 houses as I will include Targaryen as an optional house, WIP art is 90% there, there is an artist that will look into the lord card design.
- 9 House board Not started yet, Any takers?
- 9 helping rule summary Not started yet, Any takers?
- 2 new colour of troops tokens (to be able to play any 6 of 8 house)
We will simplify and reduce effort by using the tokens provided in game as only 6 players can play at the same time.
- A token for each Lord (48+2 Princes = 50)Instead of tokens I will design small format cards (like the settlers of catan cards) the idea is that everything but the board can be ordered from card shark or any other card printing service. The lord mini cards are to be used with the bases provided in the game for the lords there and will include some icon to remind the players of the character attribute
- Wildling troops + Mance Rayder (including giant ?) Instead of troop tokens a tracker will be built on the board to keep track of how many wildings are left in the battle.

- New title counter counters: We will create cards that when used will be partially covered by the lord card, as in the old asynchron edition. Again the idea is that all is printable from a card printing service
 
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Sebastian Samberg
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M0ebius wrote:
Point taken, I did not notice that one. Will revert to your proposal basically and implement that one.

It seems you already came to a conclusion on the map. Sorry for being late Between wrapping gifts and family reunions I found no time for posting.
Basically, my arguments would have leaned towards Sdric's. One important point against M0ebius's revamp that has not been mentioned is that the (more or less) traditional Greyjoy lands are not a single fief anymore. If both Greyjoy and Stark were played it would be very hard for them to esablish their first fief. I do not think this sort of forced conflict is a good idea.
I think it comes down to my last proposal vs. Sdric's. The only (and major) differences are the position/affiliation of the Gull Town/Dragonstone node and the consequent redrawing of the bishopric lines. These are significant changes, but imo the benefits of Sdric's proposal outweigh the added uncertainties.

+ Dragonstone is part of the game
+ The Vale is only a barony (more thematic than a county imo)
+ The number of towns in the bishoprics stays the same

- We have no idea how these major changes (and the road redirections, too) will affect game balance

We really have no way of knowing if the altered layouts will work. They need to be playtested or at least be judged by a veteran. That said, I am all for going with Sdric's proposal for the sake of moving on with the project. If the layout later turns out be seriously inappropriate, I think we can easily change it without any effect on the other game elements.
 
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Sebastian Samberg
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M0ebius wrote:
- New rules: Text WIP, "making it pretty in publisher" not started
- 9 House board Not started yet, Any takers?
- 9 helping rule summary Not started yet, Any takers?

I want to help, but my photoshop/gimp skills are not particularly great. I will try to come up with a sample house board though and will look into the rule summary. Also, I will check the main rules' language.

M0ebius wrote:
- A token for each Lord (48+2 Princes = 50)Instead of tokens I will design small format cards (like the settlers of catan cards) the idea is that everything but the board can be ordered from card shark or any other card printing service. The lord mini cards are to be used with the bases provided in the game for the lords there and will include some icon to remind the players of the character attribute

If the bases are the same I saw in Essen then cards are to thin to properly hold in them. See here on the bottom left. I see your point for making them cards. Making it necessary for people to get new bases is undesirable. How about providing the characters as some sort of sleeve that can be put over the tokens from the original game?
Like this (left side)

Hm, I guess if you get it from a card printing service then folding these character sleeves could be quite annoying or not look nice. Then maybe just provide each character card twice and stick each in one of the sides (right side of the picture).

Side note: I got some bases and mills from the spielematerial.de booth at Essen. I bought four bases in each of the six colours. That way it will be obvious which character belongs to which house.

The bases


The mills
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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Good to be agreed on the map :-)

I think we need to go with the "2 card sleeve" approach, I just hope the whole thing is not too think to fit. Will test that with some sample cards from another game when the pledge arrives :-)
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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Just finished my second "pretty" board version

I dont like the finishing so if there are any volunteers that have some photoshop skills I can share the PSD, I would like it to look like the original board, with the same type of roads and city labels and so on. There is an illustrator that will work on the cities so I can substitute the ugly icons :-)
 
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Looks good so far but one tiny tip: I would move the line of the yellow bishopric (or warden of the west) a bit east in the westerlands. As it looks now, the "Warden of the West" only represents a tiny piece of land west, along with iron islands and some of the north. Just a small visual change to make it more thematic.
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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You are right. I h ave asked for some help to redraw the roads and the bishopric lines, will keep that in mind when doing that :-)
 
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Sebastian Samberg
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Two points about the latest pretty board:

1) I think we should avoid "crossroads" outside of towns like the ones you have now between the Iron Islands and the North. People might get the impression that there was a direct connexion between Flint's Finger and the Stoney Shore, or between Pyke and The Crag/northernmost-Westerlands-node. It also complicates passage rules etc.

2) I thought you wanted to implement Sdric's proposal, but it seems you went for the triangular connexion in the Riverlands. To my mind, that is an unnecessary departure from vanilla principles, and Sdric did not think it a good idea either.
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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On the crossroads, given that we are stretching some connections, having two parallel roads was just uglier, the way the connections are made I think it is pretty obvious that it is not a connection between the two lower nodes,... but we can always make a clarification on the rules...

On the triangular connection on the riverlands, I just thought we were agreed on that one but it seems we were not.

I left it to make the riverlands a bit easier to defend, they have a big hindrance versus vanilla with the connection to kings landing, It is a whole new diomension of trouble coming from the south, I am trying to offset it a bit so in a single turn troops can be moved from the twins to harremhal (2 steps), give it a thought.

I can always remove it if there is no agreement, no problem, anyhow the simmilarity to the kings road is close enough without it...
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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Event, lord and character cards:

As we will have to re-design the character cards and the lord deck etc, I am thinking on swithing to normal card size instead of mini card size, larger cards are easier to hold in the hand and "nicer" in every other aspect. What do you think?

I would leave the event cards on the original format as there are no changes to these and as they have to be placed on the board its easier to fit them if they are small size... although I am not afraid of enlarging the board size at this point to fit them.

As I want to finalize the board design I need to take this into account... feedback welcome
 
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Sebastian Samberg
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Board
You are right about the crossroads. As long as they are only in the places where having two parallel lines would be ugly and confusion about what army is on what road/route is unlikely, that should be fine.

I am of two minds about the triangular connexion in the Riverlands. You are right that they seem harder to defend with the new connexion (to KL). On the other hand there are no such connexion in vanilla and they might also prove a detriment to defensibility once an enemy has captured one of the three. I tend towards leaving it out, but actually only thorough playtesting could tell.

Cards
I always prefer bigger cards to smaller ones, but I do not think enlarging to board so that larger event cards do not clutter it up is a good idea. Two reasons:
a)A very large board is epic and all, but I would rather it fit most regular tables.
b)The larger the board the higher the board file(s) resolution needs to be or it might look ugly.
I think the character and event cards should be the same size, be that small or regular, for the sake of a unified look. Larger event cards necessitate a larger board, which may be problematic for the above reasons. So I then to be against larger cards in this case. It also keeps the cost of printing the variant files down.
If the resolution of the relevant files is high enough though, then maybe we could come up with a larger and a smaller version, so that people have the option.

House Mats
I put my amateur Gimp skills to use today and came up with some (early) suggestions for the house/player mats. Most of the background art is by Tomasz Jedruszek and I got it from one of his websites. I mostly used his designs that were also used for the FFG player screens. I hope posting these fanmade drafts does not infringe on copyright.
Please, tell me what you think of them:


















 
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Ivan Alaiz
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Feedback:
I love the playmats, specially the ones above tully just with the house logo feels a bit poor in comparison...

I would like to have space for the house ability and for a little image depicting the areas of the board where that house can deploy



Cards:

We need at least large character cards as they will have the text of the attribute inside (that affects the house playmats btw). I am more advanced on the board, the board will be bigger, it needs to be because the cities are not evenly distributed and the riverlands is too cluttered to be playable at defalt size, the good news is that the board is not much bigger, total size is 90cmx70cm and it includes the wall board.

I will upload the board when I have a more finalized version in a few days (the extra riverlands connecion wil be there but it takes 30 seconds to remove)
 
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YP
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Another small comment on the map: I think all sea connections make sense and look good, except for the one from Sunspear to Starfall. As it is now, Starfall only has sea routes which makes it almost look like some sort of island, which is completely unthematic. I would make the route from Sunspear to Starfall on land but maybe a bit south (like a coastal route) to avoid the route from Starfall to Yronwood (or is it Wyl?)

About the card size, making some cards larger size can be an advantage as well, since it makes it easier to print & play (by putting them in front of sleeved MTG commons).
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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yorvog wrote:
Another small comment on the map: I think all sea connections make sense and look good, except for the one from Sunspear to Starfall. As it is now, Starfall only has sea routes which makes it almost look like some sort of island, which is completely unthematic. I would make the route from Sunspear to Starfall on land but maybe a bit south (like a coastal route) to avoid the route from Starfall to Yronwood (or is it Wyl?)

Its just a coincidence but I redid the roads on saturday and made exactly that change
 
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Sebastian Samberg
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So this is the first of the larger mats for standard-sized cards (88 x 56 mm). It is itself quite large now at 54 x 20,2 cm. Certainly now, if not in the smaller version already, I suspect the little icons for the units etc. will look smudged because I did not find them in high resolutions. If they could be obtained in higher resolution it would be little effort to put them in though. So if the general design finds approval then the player mats are pretty much done.

Tell me what you think.
 
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