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Subject: What's the final word on the hill giant promo? rss

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David
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I believe this is the whole reason for the promotion. ie. Make you get your FLGS to pre-order, thus DoW gets product in a new store.
Wait, wait, wait. So I pay more AND I'm supposed to do their fucking job for them?

Next thing you know I'll have to go over to china and make the damn thing myself. Would probably save DoW a ton of money on production costs.
 
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Mike zebrowski
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Shryke wrote:
Wait, wait, wait. So I pay more AND I'm supposed to do their fucking job for them?
No, you are doing the job of Days of Wonder's marketting department.
 
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No, you are doing the job of Days of Wonder's marketting department.
Yeah, that's pretty much who I meant be "their".
 
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Matt Smith
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I'll preface my comments on this thread by saying I know Scott, and he's definitely not a Troll. Now, if he really scrunched up his face, I guess he COULD look like a Troll...

I have to say I understand Scott's frustration with this DoW promo. I'm in the same situation he is:
- I'd love to have the promo figure (I'm a completist too)
- My nearest SLGS is about a 45 minute drive one-way.
- I normally buy my games from a local online store, run by a friend and supporter of our local game group.

Comparing my store options:
*** SLGS (Somewhat Local Game Store) ***
My SLGS is a decent boardgame store, so they've probably heard of BattleLore. They have a couple of tables to play on, and run weekly boardgame nights. However, being an extremely busy working father, I don't have time to drive across town on a workday evening to play 1-2 games. Also, the store focuses more on CCGs, so their knowledge of boardgames is just okay. They charge MSRP.

*** local online store ***
The local online store I buy most of my games from offers many benefits to me:
- Great discount prices
- Fast shipping, since the warehouse is in-state
- Free shipping if you're willing to wait until the next monthly boardgame night, or purchase enough games in one purchase
- Great customer service
- Strong ties to our local boardgame group, including door prizes and donating games to our games library
- Good descriptive information about the games, plus links to BGG

Since I've become interested in eurogames, I've introduced several people to these games and directed them to BGG for info and the local online store for purchases. These people are not enough of a hobbiest to drive across town to the SLGS, but they've pumped money into the hobby because of the convenience of the local online store. At least in my and their situation, the online retail model makes much more sense for supporting this hobby. Since DoW has turned their back on these online stores for this promotion, I can see why Scott (and myself) would find this frustrating.

Oh, and for those that think B&M stores do more to promote boardgaming in a community than online stores and other online resources (like BGG), I propose you are wrong. This is the 21st century and the Information Age. The target market for these games (teens and adults) spends much more time online than they do driving around town shopping at B&M stores.

Let's look at what resources are needed to support the hobby:
1. Information about games
- The best, most complete information available is online (BGG, boardgamenews, etc.)
2. Availability of games
- Again, best selection and prices are online. This is also by far the most convenient method of shopping, too.
3. People to play games
- I suspect most people play games with their friends, spouse/family, or at a local boardgame group. B&M stores can provide another place to play, but the same markets that are large and diverse enough to support boardgame stores also typically support boardgame groups. So, the stores aren't really necessary just to provide a place to play.

My conclusion? DoW has engineered a way to make you pay MSRP for the game if you want the promo figure. Fine. It certainly seems like it's being done (at least in part) to support B&M stores. That implies that online stores are somehow less beneficial to the boardgame hobby, which, at least in my situation and experience, is truly not the case.

Sorry for the ramble, but this is more fun that working. laugh
 
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Mike zebrowski
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Matt,

The situation in which you and Scott find yourself in is the exception to the rule.

Mike Z
 
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Mike Zebrowski wrote:
Matt,

The situation in which you and Scott find yourself in is the exception to the rule.

Mike Z
Actually Mike, I disagree with you. That's rare. Matt and Scott aren't in an unusual situation at all. What they have done though is chosen to be offended by not being offered something at a huge discount that is clearly a marketing support device to promote a game within brick & mortar stores.

DoW obviously considered their promo idea and came up with a solution for those people who CHOOSE to live where they live as opposed to moving close to a good local store. They could move to, say... Idaho and there would be three good local stores all willing to take their pre-order (in one case at a discount) and get them a Hill Giant. But that would mean they would have to abandon their image as victims of "the man"... whose only aim is to mislead and extort, through devious means, their hard-earned Dad dollars.

Matt even goes so far as to trot out the tired old "internet has changed everything" paradigm... which was bogus in 1995 and is still bogus today. If online buying is now the model, then what the hell is causing all that traffic near every mall and shopping area in America? Starbucks?

BGG has spawned a little subculture of game geeks who have a serious collective case of center-of-the-universitis... wherein they are convinced that they, and only they, are the target audience of every publisher who has a game they want to buy at deep discount.

I spent part of yesterday in three different game stores in Boise. Each had a game room, each had everything from Euro's to Warhammer to CCG's, they had terrain, train game leagues, board game nights and a high awareness of games like BattleLore and the promotional efforts for the games.

This thread, several before it, and those that are yet to come are really all about one thing and one thing only... some people want the Hill Giant but they want DoW to cut them a sweet deal and ensure they never have to haul their fat ass away from their keyboard to get it.

BTW, did you know you can buy Starbucks online? And pizza? But they aren't 35% off... those bastards!!!!
 
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Mike zebrowski
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DWTripp wrote:
Actually Mike, I disagree with you. That's rare. Matt and Scott aren't in an unusual situation at all. What they have done though is chosen to be offended by not being offered something at a huge discount that is clearly a marketing support device to promote a game within brick & mortar stores.
The part of their situation that is unusual is that the online store that they buy from is local to them and helps support the local gaming community. I can see their point-of-view.

However, that support of the local gaming community is subsidized by the online store leeching gaming dollars away from B&M stores in other areas of the country.

DoW and B&M stores know that BattleLore is a big ticket item. The bigger the ticket, the more likely that a buyer will look online for a cheaper price. Stores see it all of the time with collectable games. Players will buy the occasional booster or single, but the real serious players will buy the cases online.

DoW has to get BattleLore into the B&M stores in order for it to be a long term success. DoW can not afford to have a large number of B&M sales leeched away by online stores. If stores can not sell enough copies to make it a standard item, they will not re-stock it often nor will they be likely to order any of the expansion packs.

Mike Z
 
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Scott Russell
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I think DoW has made a business decision with this pre-order storefront or their webstore only promotion. It may be a good one, it may be a bad one. They are doing well, in general, so it may very well turn out to be a good one.

Their policy has moved the game above my price point when factoring in driving to a SLGS or ordering from DoW and paying shipping. There aren't many games that I've plunked down $80 sight unseen.

[DW, feel free to throw any comments about cheapness here, but I suspect that there is a price above which you wouldn't buy this game, we just differ on where it is.]

And by making it a pre-order only promotion, I can't wait to see the game, and then decide to get a complete set. This makes it less likely that I will own a copy. Again, this is information that DoW can use or not use, as they please.

I have provided feedback here and in my letter that would make me more likely to participate in DoW pre-order offers in the future. They can use these ideas or not, but I don't see why it hurts to put them on the table.

My collected suggestions are:

Either allow all online stores to participate by charging MSRP or to allow no online stores participating (including their own and storefronts that also have online presence),

Allow a donation for amount that they think that we've been undercharged by our FLOGS to DoW or to a mutually agreed upon charity,

Pay the postage on direct orders from DoW (like they are doing in Europe),

Or allow the hill giant to be purchased separately to reduce postage costs.

I had hoped that the reponses would be to these suggestions instead of kneejerk reactions, poor attempts at psychoanalysis or ad hominem attacks (to which I unfortunately responded instead of ignoring).

I am not offended or otherwise upset with DoW, that's a strawman that has been used to characterize my position and throw mud at.

I own most of their games (missing Terra and a few M'44 expansions), play them online, have purchased multiple copies of some (TtR makes a great gift) and am happy with their games in general. Some of these I've purchased at MSRP when I planned poorly (DGS, distant game store on way to relatives) or wanted to encourage a store to keep carrying our type of game (Toys R Us). However, the basic system isn't my favorite, so $80 is more than I am willing to drop without seeing it first.

I have explained why I think their current offer is a bit hypocritical and that seems to have derailed the conversation. For those of you to whom hypocritical is an emotionally charged word, substitute inconsistent or unfair, if it makes you feel better. Or better yet, be an adult and agree to disagree on a matter of opinion and respond to the substance of the posts.



 
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Matt Smith
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DWTripp,

I'm 6'3" and 160 lbs. So, while I've often been accused of being a fat head (mostly by my wife), I definitely don't have a fat ass.

Also, it's not the money that's at issue here (at least not for me). I have plenty of disposable income. It's the idea that sales at B&M stores will somehow make or break BL and therefore we won't offer the promotion at all retail outlets that has me confused.

If I was running a boardgame business, I'd want to sell my product at a profit while selling as many as I can. With an expandable game like BL, selling as many of the base games as you can is key. Online stores are available to many more of my target customers than B&M, so I'd be doing everything I can to push as much product through all available retail channels. If the online stores can run a lower-cost business and therefore sell my product for less, that will drive up my volume, which is good business for me. Why would I want to penalize them for that?

I'd love to be able to analyze some of DoW sales data. I've got to believe at least half of their sales are through online stores. If that's the case, why bite one of the hands that feeds you?
 
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Matthew Jensen
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Hmmm.....

Just my opinion. I've pre-ordered mine through my local FLGS. Though I must say I'm lucky to have a great local provider that features an excellent play area with no intrusion of CCG-fan (that product is not even sold in the store). Its a bastion for board gamers and I'll gladly pay a bit more for my games to support that. Getting a promo figure out of such an action is just frosting on the cake.

For those of you without the pleasure of a good FLGS - Sorry. You are missing out and its too bad about the promo.

For those of you whimpering about having to buy a from a good FLGS and not save a few bucks - Pony up, support the store through more than just $2 game fees and an occasional soda!

Well, now I've stuck my hand into the rabid wolverine den.
 
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John Lopez
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Quote:
Or better yet, be an adult and agree to disagree on a matter of opinion and respond to the substance of the posts.
That's hard when the substance of the post is:

1. It can't been seen in advance. (Kinda the definition of PRE-ORDER). Nothing to really discuss here.

2. The promotional item won't be unbundled. (Again, kinda the definition of the whole promotion thing... nothing to really talk about. Except for the fact it will be on e-bay 30 seconds after it is available.)

3. It's too expensive. (This is a judgment call. I find it quite affordable, but I throw a significant percentage of income at toys. I'd worry about "too expensive" in regards to basic needs. This is a luxury item: nobody needs this and they can charge anything they really want to for it. They will be subject of course to the laws of economics, which is how I like to see this kind of worry settle itself out anyway.)

4. Your favorite store can't participate. (I find little to talk about here either: DoW set the terms of the promotion, and from this thread a vast majority seem to find them acceptable, or are simply willing to walk away.)

Not that information is a bad thing for a company to read. Hopefully they *do* read this thread. However, I would assume (and it is only an assumption) that they thought this through: I have seen far less "fair" promotions in my time.

So what exactly are we discussing again? The only traction I could get was on point #3: in your case the promotion comes out to expensive for your tastes and preferences on aquiring it. Which just brings me back to ponies.
 
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Martin Stever
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Mike Zebrowski wrote:
DoW has to get BattleLore into the B&M stores in order for it to be a long term success. DoW can not afford to have a large number of B&M sales leeched away by online stores. If stores can not sell enough copies to make it a standard item, they will not re-stock it often nor will they be likely to order any of the expansion packs.

Mike Z
QFT
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Will Haskell
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Wow!

4 pages!

I can't wait until the Earth Elemental thread starts.
 
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Matthew Wills
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Shryke wrote:
My main problem with this whole promotion is that most of the FLGS DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT BATTLELORE IS!!

Seriously, I can understand the urge to help out the B&M stores. Whatever, I'll pre-order from them, and pay more to get the promo figure.

Unfortuntely, this doesn't seem to work since none of the stores I contacted even knew about it. Most of them were like "Hmm, some people earlier asked about that game. Maybe I should look into it.".
Maybe I should look into it.

No doubt this was part of DoW's strategy. And a mighty clever one. At least half of the retailers I contacted about pre-ordering hadn't heard of it previously. After researching it for me, they were subsequently considering getting it in.

Very smart marketing on DoW's part.
 
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John Lopez
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mvettemagred wrote:
I'd love to be able to analyze some of DoW sales data. I've got to believe at least half of their sales are through online stores. If that's the case, why bite one of the hands that feeds you?
That's a mighty large claim you make there: any links or references to back it up?

As far as I can tell, there are two aspects to marketing a game: the initial "surge" sales, and the long term steady sales (and expansion sales, which go with long term sales).

If you are willing to simply push as many units as possible on day one, online seems a reasonable solution. The BGG crowd will show up and buy. But if you want to build a long term distribution channel for expansions, you need to establish a deeper base than the BGG user base, or even the hard core online buyers in general. Someone else used "self important" to describe the BGG perspective, and I'm going to agree with this. We buy a lot of games, yes? But we are a drop in the bucket of the annual game sales. First off, our lovely little niche is just that, a niche. "Monopoly, we hate's it, it burns us" we cry. We attack party games, children's games and mainstream games as being beneath us.

Yet the majority of game sales remain "mainstream" games. Days of Wonder has made an effort to make games that have "crossover" appeal to the mainstream gamers. With enough time and effort they may finally appear in boring stores with boring mainstream games. But they won't get there by throwing extra bonuses at the discount online gamers. Nor do they really have to: the majority of the price conscious made the decision to walk away from the promotion without much of a fuss and either bought it cheap or skipped it. Huzzah, free markets at work: people valued the promotion and made a decision.

The entire thread comes down to a strange sense of entitlement which I have yet to work out. However, something tells me that building your business around clients who have a strange sense of entitlement isn't a prudent approach. I know if someone came to me with a similar proposal on a promotion I ran would't stand much chance of changing my business practices. I often get "you charge too much" from prospective clients. My response of "yes, I do" and then walking away keeps me away from those clients, whom I have learned over the years will just drag your business down, nickle and diming all the way.

 
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Matthew Wills
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WLHaskell wrote:
Wow!

4 pages!

I can't wait until the Earth Elemental thread starts.
Amazing isn't it. I am pretty sure it was only 1 page yesterday.
 
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John Lopez
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Amazing isn't it. I am pretty sure it was only 1 page yesterday.
I guess that makes the promotion a success? If more people complain about the promotion, this thing could be bigger than MtG.
 
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mvettemagred wrote:
If I was running a boardgame business, I'd want to sell my product at a profit while selling as many as I can. With an expandable game like BL, selling as many of the base games as you can is key. Online stores are available to many more of my target customers than B&M, so I'd be doing everything I can to push as much product through all available retail channels. If the online stores can run a lower-cost business and therefore sell my product for less, that will drive up my volume, which is good business for me. Why would I want to penalize them for that?
But they are pushing it through all their available channels, nowhere does DoW say "Online game stores can get bent." What they are saying is "Hey, if you want a discount go to an online store, if yu want a cool hill giant fig go to a local store".

They (DoW) are giving you a choice, discount or fig, which you decide to take is your choice.

To quote that famous philosophical band:
Devo wrote:
freedom of choice
is what you got
freedom from choice
is what you want
 
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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If you find the price too high, don't buy it. Life is so easy. If you want to have the Hill Giant, pay what DoW demands, but don't blame them. The Hill Giant is no necessity. You can't have everything, though.
 
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Oh for crying out loud. *INCOMPLETE GAME*??? Whiskey tango foxtrot. The game was designed for play with the pieces in the box. With later expansions, if you choose. The piece in questions is a freaking promo piece. MOST people who buy the game (if it is successful) WON'T HAVE IT.

You would swear by listening to these bizarre rants that they were planning on giving you an old shoe and an umbrella skeleton in the box and not a game.

No intelligent life left on this thread, un-subscribed.

Edit: MORE CAPS.
 
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Clearly, DoW is screwing over people by selling us an incomplete game. It doesn't feature every animal or fantasy creature ever out of the box! It doesn't have auctions! I mean, Battlelore won't even do my taxes or help me lose weight--I demand 100% completeness.
The mere knowledge that someone, somewhere, has a hill giant because they were willing to pay more than I was will prevent me from enjoying the game at all. Clearly the only rational response is to not buy it and boycott DoW. Actually, merely seeing the product on shelves will be too much--I'd better not go to the FLGS anymore (gouging jerks). I'd better not visit the interweb anymore, either, because then people might talk about Battlelore, and my deep emptiness will be felt once more.
 
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Gyges wrote:
Clearly, DoW is screwing over people by selling us an incomplete game. It doesn't feature every animal or fantasy creature ever out of the box! It doesn't have auctions! I mean, Battlelore won't even do my taxes or help me lose weight--I demand 100% completeness.
The mere knowledge that someone, somewhere, has a hill giant because they were willing to pay more than I was will prevent me from enjoying the game at all. Clearly the only rational response is to not buy it and boycott DoW. Actually, merely seeing the product on shelves will be too much--I'd better not go to the FLGS anymore (gouging jerks). I'd better not visit the interweb anymore, either, because then people might talk about Battlelore, and my deep emptiness will be felt once more.
meeple
 
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Mike Zebrowski wrote:
Matt,

The situation in which you and Scott find yourself in is the exception to the rule.

Mike Z
I guess I am an exception as well, being 2000 miles from any FLGS that I know speaks english. That is the price I pay for working overseas. Everyone I introduce to the hobby is in the same boat, including several people at the embassy in Ouagadougou and in Moscow. Remember that there is more to our hobby than those who live in major metropolitan areas in America, and even for those people all circumstances are not the same.

I am of two minds on this promo. I agree with the concept of generating an interest in retail outlets (FLGS) and getting them to stock it (although I think the Heroscape sales model is more appropriate), but have problems with anything that is limited edition. If this takes off like they hope it will and tournaments are run with point based units will the Hill Giant be a uber-figure? My favorite game is Babylon 5 CCG and some of the promo cards are uberpowerful and can create huge advantages for anyone who has them, shoud the hill giant turn into one of those I will be disappointed. While I would like to support DOW in their attempt to push into the Warhammer/Heroscape market there is not enough info to make an informed decision about this.

That being said if I get BattleLore it will be without the figure because I cannot justify that premium for price. I end up waiting and making one maybe two orders a year online so $30 for one figure just isn't worth it to me.

And anyone who suggests that online stores do not support the hobby as much as FLGS should try looking at it from other perspectives, from my perspective FLGS add nothing for me or most people I come across.
 
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WLHaskell wrote:
I can't wait until the Earth Elemental thread starts...
What will be really funny/sad is if DoW does what I *think* they will do (note this is my opinion, not based on any inside info)... I think we'll see both the Earth Elemental and the Hill Giant in a blister pack 2-6 months out. In fact, there was a mention on the DoW boards that the EE will at least be available online after the fact.

Source: http://www.daysofwonder.com/index.php?t=msg&th=8209&start=0&...

If that happens, imagine the complaining people will do then about having paid MSRP to get something they could have waited for.
 
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shadowTerp wrote:
WLHaskell wrote:
I can't wait until the Earth Elemental thread starts...
What will be really funny/sad is if DoW does what I *think* they will do (note this is my opinion, not based on any inside info)... I think we'll see both the Earth Elemental and the Hill Giant in a blister pack 2-6 months out. In fact, there was a mention on the DoW boards that the EE will at least be available online after the fact.

Source: http://www.daysofwonder.com/index.php?t=msg&th=8209&start=0&...

If that happens, imagine the complaining people will do then about having paid MSRP to get something they could have waited for.
To be clear, the post you quote says the EE will be available from the DoW website.

There is no mention of it being more widely available online, or being available for free online.
 
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