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Subject: On Kickstarter Exclusives rss

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Mark Griffiths
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While this isn't a subject unique to Fallen, I don't remember the last time the issue of kickstarter exclusives with a game was such a sore point.

As I presume we all know, Fallen had four adventure packs that were promised as kickstarter exclusives, and would never see the light of day at retail. And as I also presume we all know, such exclusive items are meant as incentive for people to back the ks rather than wait until retail. At the time, I remember being a bit dubious about these four - I mean, it's not like they're making an alternative sculpt of a mini or something. This is game content for four complete expansions that takes a hugely significant amount of resources to develop - are the benefits really going to offset the potential losses further down the line, when they have this stuff that cannot ethically be used again?

I hadn't given it much thought until now, when a couple of expansions have been announced via the website, and people are saying they won't buy the game now because they can't get these four adventure packs. To a degree, I understand this completely, as I'm a rabid completionist who has often spent more on a promo than on the base game it goes to.

But it got me thinking. How many backers who got those four adventure packs would be up in arms if Watchtower Games announced they would now be available for sale? Would we be offended? Betrayed?

Personally, I really don't care one way or the other, but if I had to come down on one side, I would support the company making these packs available for the wider community.

I don't see any benefit whatsoever to these packs being kept by a select few backers, and those scalping them on ebay are not benefiting the company who took the time and effort to develop them in the first place. I am quite violently opposed to promos that have an active effect on a game, as it only serves to foster divisions within a community of gamers, creating the haves and the have-nots. We're supposed to come together to play games, after all.

Whether or not opening up availability of these packs would actually drive up sales of the base game, I still feel really bad for the company for having so much content that they have pledged not to sell outside the ks.

I'm curious to see if I'm the only person in the world who feels this way, however. How many backers of the game (excluding those hawking their packs on ebay) feel like they would have been stabbed in the back should these packs make it to formal retail? If so, why?
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spalanzani wrote:


I'm curious to see if I'm the only person in the world who feels this way, however. How many backers of the game (excluding those hawking their packs on ebay) feel like they would have been stabbed in the back should these packs make it to formal retail? If so, why?


Why? Because most of the time, you are not getting a game at the street price but at MSRP. So, how is it fair that KS backers support a game at full MSRP just to have content available cheaper later on to the masses? What irritates me more is people going to a con, getting freebies that end up being hawked on E-Bay for a song when the true fans of the game are left wagging in the wind. At least KS backers who hawk their goods paid a fair deal for them. KS exclusives are for the folks who were willing to fork out the dosh on a game they had to have faith in and were diligent enough to catch it. Take those away and you can wave Kickstarter goodbye as far as boardgames go.

-Ski
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Zombicide has healed my completionism a bit. I missed the first Kickstarter and heard of the game much later. I then bought the basegame and found out about all the KS-exclusives and was pissed off for a day or two.

But then I found that even without all the extras the game I got was pretty good and let's be honest: most of us don't have the time to play all the content every game we hav has to offer. While Zombicide is a good game, I haven't yet played all missions (and there are a lot additional missions posted online). So I'm good. I didn't even buy expansions.

I own the KS-Version of Fallen without the 4 expansionpacks. For the moment I'm good. I guess I will preorder the new expansions but that conten will last me for years. I don't need KS-Exclusives.
 
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In the video game industry there are many so-called "timed-exclusives." This way, early adopters get some kind of benefit for being early, but users who come along much later or are more patient (i.e. on a budget) don't get locked out forever. Of course, in the video game case, the issue is usually over platform, which does not have an analog in this discussion.

Personally, I don't buy (or not buy) based on exclusives. However, maybe timed exclusives would give KS projects a way to add convenience and a degree of exclusivity without locking out future customers. I am sure some already do this.
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Mark Griffiths
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Some interesting perspectives here!

It's really sad to think that the kickstarter model is so fundamentally flawed. A means for people to pretend to be philanthropic while only doing so in the expectation they will get some shiny-shiny they can then sell off to make back their initial outlay. I've only backed a handful of games, of course, but each time I've done so because I'm really excited about the idea, and about helping to bring something awesome into the world. The recent Shadows of Brimstone, I backed the bejeesus out of that thing, over-pledging by so much that I didn't know what to do with the pledge manager. The most important thing should always be to get the developers the resources to create something amazing, but it seems that the game itself (or whatever the idea is) isn't enough anymore.

I'm feeling quite despondent now, so will stop typing. Thanks for taking the time to reply though, guys!
 
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Lyle Jobe
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I am in favor of companies honoring what they say. If they say its KS exclusive, it should remain so. Its a matter of integrity. Whether exclusives are good or bad is an entirely different question.
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Richard A. Edwards
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Borrowed from another thread:
StormbringerGT wrote:
I have a feeling the amount of "lost sales" from people not getting the kickstarter expansions are a drop in the bucket.


Sales is an interesting question and ultimately what will drive KS exclusives.

The Fallen kickstarter had:
1,311 backers and made $113,594.
503 those who did not get any of the KS exclusive adventure packs.
640 got all 4 APs.

So, for at least 500 people, the APs being exclusive were not an issue.

808 backers got 1 or more exclusive APs.

I wonder how many of those 800 would NOT have been backers if the APs were not exclusive?

And I wonder how many retail sales of those APs might have brought into the company in the retail market?

Ultimately though, I think this KS model is used to gain immediate sales at the risk of losing future retail sales. When faced with not being able to even launch the game, it's understandable that a small company might want to do everything possible to gain immediate cash in order to actually produce the game. What use are future sales if the game is never produced?

There are a growing number of KS games that never make it any further. Either they don't get picked up in the retail market or the retail sales are small.

The loss of product (the 4 exclusive APs) to offer to the retail market will surely cost something. The only question is whether the loss of revenue from those sales is larger than the income gained from the limited KS backers. Retail sales has more potential for future ongoing sales, but only if the game gets backed and produced in the first place.

Personally, I don't think KS Exclusives have that big of an impact on backers. More goodies is a bonus that does matter, but exclusivity, IMHO, only drives scalpers who want to cash in. And companies that use exclusives drive scalping and reduce their own future retail sales which makes me wonder if they have any real confidence in their product since they're shorting their future for quick gain.

I honestly wish Fallen the best of luck in the retail market. I think the upcoming release of expansions, providing the retail customers with support beyond the KS APs, is a good move to show retail customers that it's not just a dead end system requiring being scalped on Ebay if we want more.

Still, it's too bad that the KS APs won't see the light of day, nor will Watchtower make retail profits from them, among what will hopefully be thousands of new retail customers.
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vikings40 wrote:
I am in favor of companies honoring what they say. If they say its KS exclusive, it should remain so. Its a matter of integrity. Whether exclusives are good or bad is an entirely different question.



I'm going to play devils advocate a bit here and show that I can understand both sides of the argument.


What if the backers gave him the green light to release it though? Hes going back on his word to release the stuff but with the blessings of the people who backed it in the first place (This isn't whats happening though) but how do you feel about that scenario.

Further as someone who has backed many things, if I am a huge fan of the game or product and I want it to be successful I would be more than happy to let the company sell the exclusives after the fact maybe if its even a timed exclusive. I want the company to succeed and make more money and make more stuff for me to give them more money. Sure i loose my exclusives but at that point my exclusives would be getting the Kickstarter version of the game and all 4 adventure packs at $100. Where was the kickstarter version of the game probably would retail for $70 to $80 without the adventure addons. So my exclusives are helping a company make a successful product. Getting a good deal on the product.

In this scenario as someone who owns the kick starter materials and played with them I want as many fans as possible to play this good stuff, the story cards are very well written just like the retail set. I don't want to be part of some greedy exclusive club.

The kick starter had 1,300 ish backers if I remember right. If he is able to sell the kick starter stuff at the retail level that is a huge surplus capital for his company made from pre existing product. This stuff is as good as the stuff that comes with the game, as much testing and writing went into this stuff as went into the base set stuff. Its sad less than 1,500 will be able to read this stuff.

Now all that being said, the Retail box is still a GREAT deal. You are not missing anything, it is a complete game on its own, one that I have played over 50 times so far. However as a fan of this game I want other fans to have access to the exclusive stuff as well.

I also understand Toms position. He has to stand by whats stated. The wants of the few vs the wants of the many is never an easy decision to make.

Threatening to not buy it because you cant have everything is pretty much only hurting yourself. Its not all bad though, there are tons of great games out there. Just one less you have to spend money on and have to make time to play I guess. The financial impact to the company from the 20 angry forum posters who are not going to buy it is probably very very minimal I'd imagine....
 
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Lyle Jobe
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I understand what you are saying. I guess I am just tired of people going back on their promise , even if they may have good intentions. We will never know how many backers counted on this promise to pledge money.
I find it interesting that people are very concerned about the profits for Watchtower regarding the AP's .Remember,if my calculations are correct, they have already made nearly $40k on them already. I think they are doing well financially as I have not heard anything to the contrary from them and their plan to offer expansions is a very positive sign.
 
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Richard A. Edwards
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StormbringerGT wrote:
Threatening to not buy it because you cant have everything is pretty much only hurting yourself. Its not all bad though, there are tons of great games out there. Just one less you have to spend money on and have to make time to play I guess. The financial impact to the company from the 20 angry forum posters who are not going to buy it is probably very very minimal I'd imagine....


I agree that if for every poster who objects is representative of 20 who don't read BGG or post, it's still a relatively small number and not much of a financial impact.

I think the biggest financial impact is the lost sales of 4 adventure packs that they could be marketing in retail but won't because they are KS exclusive.

If there are thousands of retail sales of the core and a fraction of those would have bought those 4 adventure packs but can't because they're exclusives, that's a big financial impact of lost sales.
 
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Edwin Karat
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* I do not represent anyone other than myself. Any opinions expressed are solely my own.

* I did get the 4 packs via the original Kickstarter.

* I actually think the 4 packs were the least worthwhile material out of all the material that isn't in the retail version. The extra heroes and dungeon lords felt more valuable to me.

* As a general rule, I wish the idea of Kickstarter-exclusives would go away. However, I do support the idea of timed-exclusives -- exclusive for a limited time, but eventually available to the general public. I think a lot of other people would be fine with it too if that were clear and up front. Getting shinies earlier than anyone else is still an incentive.

* I would personally be okay if the exclusive packs were eventually released to the general public, but I cringe at the thought because I know other people would be upset at being lied to and fully understand why they would feel that way.

* I wish the packs were never announced as exclusive. In my opinion, that was a mistake. Personally, I would have bought them regardless.


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spalanzani wrote:
Some interesting perspectives here!

It's really sad to think that the kickstarter model is so fundamentally flawed. A means for people to pretend to be philanthropic while only doing so in the expectation they will get some shiny-shiny they can then sell off to make back their initial outlay. I've only backed a handful of games, of course, but each time I've done so because I'm really excited about the idea, and about helping to bring something awesome into the world. The recent Shadows of Brimstone, I backed the bejeesus out of that thing, over-pledging by so much that I didn't know what to do with the pledge manager. The most important thing should always be to get the developers the resources to create something amazing, but it seems that the game itself (or whatever the idea is) isn't enough anymore.

I'm feeling quite despondent now, so will stop typing. Thanks for taking the time to reply though, guys!



Trust me, Kickstarter campaigns for boardgames became pre-orders a long time ago. So as long as you look at it that way, you won't be as frustrated. Sure, there are definitely grass root projects out there, but for the bigger games like Fallen, the investment was already made by the designer WELL before the campaign started. Always wondered how the art was done before you even touched the pledge button?

 
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Mark Griffiths
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Teamski wrote:


Trust me, Kickstarter campaigns for boardgames became pre-orders a long time ago. So as long as you look at it that way, you won't be as frustrated. Sure, there are definitely grass root projects out there, but for the bigger games like Fallen, the investment was already made by the designer WELL before the campaign started. Always wondered how the art was done before you even touched the pledge button?



Unfortunately, you're absolutely right of course. I'm just an eternal optimist, and the idea of kickstarter is just so damn awesome! But yeah, it's such a sad state of affairs.

And of course, with established companies using it, it raises all sorts of questions about the ongoing validity of the platform.

Sad face.
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Timed exclusives are always a great idea, or Alternate Art Exclusives as well.

A lot of time, you are also getting a good deal as well price wise (off the retail, you can't compare to the coolstuff price realistically)

 
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spalanzani wrote:
Teamski wrote:


Trust me, Kickstarter campaigns for boardgames became pre-orders a long time ago. So as long as you look at it that way, you won't be as frustrated. Sure, there are definitely grass root projects out there, but for the bigger games like Fallen, the investment was already made by the designer WELL before the campaign started. Always wondered how the art was done before you even touched the pledge button?



Unfortunately, you're absolutely right of course. I'm just an eternal optimist, and the idea of kickstarter is just so damn awesome! But yeah, it's such a sad state of affairs.

And of course, with established companies using it, it raises all sorts of questions about the ongoing validity of the platform.

Sad face.


yeah its almost a no risk investment for large companies at this point. You'll know it when it hits an all time low when Fantasy Flight starts putting stuff up on there...

There problem with larger companies putting up stuff is that Kickstarter Fatigue starts to set in. You only really have enough money for so many projects and when companies who already have publisher power go to kickstarter it will eat away at your budget for it.

Also there is coverage. Fallen probably would have gotten quite a bit more support, but it got lost in the shuffle. Heck I didn't find out about it until WELL after the kickstarter ended, otherwise I would have been all over it.

Finally and the one people seem to be the least concerned with is the damage done on a retail level. Especially when it is large companies offering exclusives. Brick and mortar retail stores have a hard time already keeping up with the pricing structure of online retailers and Amazon. Now you got all this big name companies going kickstarter that takes even more money out of local game store pockets. How can they compete with early access to a game before the public, the discount and Exclusives?

Fallen is doing well at our store but there are some people who played the demo and then went out and bought the kickstarter on the after market. Mind you there are also some super awesome people at the store who bought the retail copy to show support and also bought the kickstarter copy for themselves as well. But that's the except not the norm and expensive.
 
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StormbringerGT wrote:

Unfortunately, you're absolutely right of course. I'm just an eternal optimist, and the idea of kickstarter is just so damn awesome! But yeah, it's such a sad state of affairs.

And of course, with established companies using it, it raises all sorts of questions about the ongoing validity of the platform.


The silver lining in all of this is through hard experience, it is now a hell of a lot easier not pushing the pledge button knowing that the game in question will most definitely be a lot cheaper when it comes out with a better gauge of how good it actually is by the time you buy it. The only exception I have seen so far in backing over 40 projects in having a lower price than the street price was surprisingly the Sails of Glory campaign where the ships were actually a tad cheaper on KS than when they showed up on line. Regardless, experience is starting to show which projects are worthy of passing on which is becoming the vast majority of them......

-Ski
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Note: Hostage Negotiator tried timed exclusives for the abductor packs for the game and recently sent an update asking backers whether they would be fine if he allowed people to preorder them with the base game after all... Apparently having the time delay made it more difficult to predict how many should be printed. Most of the responses i saw were from backers saying they were fine with it... But it does indicate that timed-exclusives have their own set of issues.

Personally, i dislike significant ks exclusive content and prefer any ks exclusives take the form of upgrades rather than content. Additional content makes me feel like i am being manipulated to buy now.
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I'm not sure this thread belongs in the Fallen forum anymore, as it is essentially a discussion of Kickstarter practices generally.

Having said that, my two cents:

1, Any discussion of the risk of "lost retail sales" from KS Exclusive materials has to be balanced against the *risk* that the game never would have been published in the first place. You can not raise the one without consideration of the other.

Even for a game like Fallen, in which WG had presumably invested a lot of money and time before the KS campaign launched, that risk is real. If the KS campaign had been a complete flop, and raised less than $5,000 total, that might have been a message to WG to pack it up and go home, irrespective of how much money they had already spent creating the game.

This is not to justify KS Exclusives. It's to say that the issue is way more nuanced than "WG just ensured that they lost sales by making these Adventure Packs KS Exclusive."

2. Any discussion that revolves around the moral repugnancy of those who back KS projects with the expectation of re-selling on ebay for a profit has even less persuasiveness. Publishing games is a business. Selling games is a business. People and companies publish and sell games to make money. It is not a philanthropic endeavor. KS campaigns for games are not philanthropic endeavors, although one might choose to think of it as such. In the case of games, it is a funding mechanism that provides an alternative to the traditional publishing model...for the purpose of selling games for a profit.

The fact that you, as a consumer, do not buy games as a business proposition, does not mean that those who do are morally repugnant. In fact, that's what FLGS' and OLGS' do - they buy certain games (whether through KS or from Distributors) that they believe will be popular, with the expectation that they will be able to sell them later at a profit. Businesses who specialize in buying and selling used and OOP games do the same thing. But we don't say that what these businesses do is morally repugnant. There is no meaningful distinction (that I can see) between what these businesses do, and what KS backers do when they pledge for a game for the express purpose of re-selling it at a profit. After all, they only sell games at prices which the market supports. If gamers didn't agree to pay those prices, those prices would absolutely come down.

This isn't meant to be a defense of the practice, per se. It's just that I don't see any moral distinction to be made between those who do it as a business, and those who do it as a hobby to make a few extra bucks.

3. To go from "what is" to "what I think should be" - I support the idea of timed exclusives as well. Honestly, if Fallen is still in print in 2024 (10 years after Fallen was finally released), then it is extremely unlikely that anyone still around will object to WG re-printing all the KS Exclusive material at that point as part of an "Anniversary Edition." A slightly larger minority might object to WG re-printing all the KS material in 2019 (after five years), but I'd like to think it would be less than 10-20 backers total.

Honestly I think 2-3 years is quite sufficient for backers to feel that they had something special by having access to game material 2 years before everyone else. "Woo! See these shiny bits I got?!? You can't have them until Christmas 2016!" I recognize that others might disagree with this kind of arrangement. But it would ensure that everyone will eventually have access to all the game content for the game, but KS creators can still offer an incentive that will encourage backers to pledge for their game now, instead of waiting til it comes to retail.
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SirRoke wrote:
Borrowed from another thread:
StormbringerGT wrote:
I have a feeling the amount of "lost sales" from people not getting the kickstarter expansions are a drop in the bucket.


Sales is an interesting question and ultimately what will drive KS exclusives.

The Fallen kickstarter had:
1,311 backers and made $113,594.
503 those who did not get any of the KS exclusive adventure packs.
640 got all 4 APs.

So, for at least 500 people, the APs being exclusive were not an issue.



This strikes me as a little ingenuous. Even backers that chose to not get any of the four additional adventure packs still got more than twice the story cards as retail users due to the exclusive stretch goals, including five adventure packs as stretch goals. Plus the other stretch goals. I wonder how many of those 500 would have backed or bought the game for just the retail level.
 
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slaybalj wrote:
SirRoke wrote:
Borrowed from another thread:
StormbringerGT wrote:
I have a feeling the amount of "lost sales" from people not getting the kickstarter expansions are a drop in the bucket.


Sales is an interesting question and ultimately what will drive KS exclusives.

The Fallen kickstarter had:
1,311 backers and made $113,594.
503 those who did not get any of the KS exclusive adventure packs.
640 got all 4 APs.

So, for at least 500 people, the APs being exclusive were not an issue.



This strikes me as a little ingenuous. Even backers that chose to not get any of the four additional adventure packs still got more than twice the story cards as retail users due to the exclusive stretch goals, including five adventure packs as stretch goals. Plus the other stretch goals. I wonder how many of those 500 would have backed or bought the game for just the retail level.


Good point. I did not mean to be ingenuous. I was focusing on the APs and wasn't aware of the additional exclusive stretch goals.
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GreenLaborMike wrote:
The fact that you, as a consumer, do not buy games as a business proposition, does not mean that those who do are morally repugnant. In fact, that's what FLGS' and OLGS' do - they buy certain games (whether through KS or from Distributors) that they believe will be popular, with the expectation that they will be able to sell them later at a profit. Businesses who specialize in buying and selling used and OOP games do the same thing. But we don't say that what these businesses do is morally repugnant. There is no meaningful distinction (that I can see) between what these businesses do, and what KS backers do when they pledge for a game for the express purpose of re-selling it at a profit. After all, they only sell games at prices which the market supports. If gamers didn't agree to pay those prices, those prices would absolutely come down.

This isn't meant to be a defense of the practice, per se. It's just that I don't see any moral distinction to be made between those who do it as a business, and those who do it as a hobby to make a few extra bucks.


The difference, and there is one, is that my local FLGS buys games from distributors for a set price and markets them to me at MSRP. Of course they sell them for more than they pay, but they don't overcharge above MSRP.

Speculators who buy into KS exclusives and then scalp them on Ebay are usually asking FAR above what would be the market retail price. That's the difference.

What keeps a local store from jacking up the cost? The market of hundreds of other stores also selling the same game, the company itself selling on their own website, and online game stores selling at discounts.

What keeps a scalper from jacking up costs on exclusives? Nothing because they are artificially rare and being scarce can demand a higher price.

We don't have the option of shopping around for better competitive prices like we do with retailers.

I'm not saying that the scalpers shouldn't do it or that they are breaking some moral code. I'm just pointing out that there is a difference in your comparison.
 
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SirRoke wrote:
slaybalj wrote:
SirRoke wrote:
Borrowed from another thread:
StormbringerGT wrote:
I have a feeling the amount of "lost sales" from people not getting the kickstarter expansions are a drop in the bucket.


Sales is an interesting question and ultimately what will drive KS exclusives.

The Fallen kickstarter had:
1,311 backers and made $113,594.
503 those who did not get any of the KS exclusive adventure packs.
640 got all 4 APs.

So, for at least 500 people, the APs being exclusive were not an issue.



This strikes me as a little ingenuous. Even backers that chose to not get any of the four additional adventure packs still got more than twice the story cards as retail users due to the exclusive stretch goals, including five adventure packs as stretch goals. Plus the other stretch goals. I wonder hny of those 500 would have backed or bought the game for just the retail level.


Good point. I did not mean to be ingenuous. I was focusing on the APs and wasn't aware of the additional exclusive stretch goals.



Honestly, your numbers surprised me. Earlier today I had done a (very) brief survey of board games that offered ks exclusives or tiers that excluded stretch goals and the two projects i had looked at had less than 1% of backers choosing a basic tier. It seemed very odd that in the case of Fallen the percentage would be so much higher. but makes more sense when you consider the stretch goal content.

...and I might have misused the word 'ingenuous' as well. :)
 
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SirRoke wrote:
GreenLaborMike wrote:
The fact that you, as a consumer, do not buy games as a business proposition, does not mean that those who do are morally repugnant. In fact, that's what FLGS' and OLGS' do - they buy certain games (whether through KS or from Distributors) that they believe will be popular, with the expectation that they will be able to sell them later at a profit. Businesses who specialize in buying and selling used and OOP games do the same thing. But we don't say that what these businesses do is morally repugnant. There is no meaningful distinction (that I can see) between what these businesses do, and what KS backers do when they pledge for a game for the express purpose of re-selling it at a profit. After all, they only sell games at prices which the market supports. If gamers didn't agree to pay those prices, those prices would absolutely come down.

This isn't meant to be a defense of the practice, per se. It's just that I don't see any moral distinction to be made between those who do it as a business, and those who do it as a hobby to make a few extra bucks.


The difference, and there is one, is that my local FLGS buys games from distributors for a set price and markets them to me at MSRP. Of course they sell them for more than they pay, but they don't overcharge above MSRP.

Speculators who buy into KS exclusives and then scalp them on Ebay are usually asking FAR above what would be the market retail price. That's the difference.

What keeps a local store from jacking up the cost? The market of hundreds of other stores also selling the same game, the company itself selling on their own website, and online game stores selling at discounts.

What keeps a scalper from jacking up costs on exclusives? Nothing because they are artificially rare and being scarce can demand a higher price.

We don't have the option of shopping around for better competitive prices like we do with retailers.

I'm not saying that the scalpers shouldn't do it or that they are breaking some moral code. I'm just pointing out that there is a difference in your comparison.


1. Your comparison does not account for businesses that buy and sell used and OOP games. The supply is artificially rare because they are not printed anymore.

2. There is nothing artificially rare about the number of copies of KS exclusives that will be produced except the voluntary choice of backers not to back a project. More backers pledging for more copies means more supply and lower prices. Seriously, there is nothing to prevent every FLGS and OLGS in the world from backing KS projects with KS Exclusives so that they can sell them in their store. You could as easily complain that FLGS's *aren't* backing KS projects often enough, and thus artificially restricting the availability of KS Exclusives.

In truth, many FLGS's and OLGS's DO back them. As just one example, Miniature Market purchased several (10? 100? 1000?) copies of the Deluxe Edition of Euphoria, which was a Kickstarter Exclusive edition of the game, and sold them for a premium on their website. There was no MSRP for the Deluxe Edition. Miniature Market was free to set the price as they saw fit. And it was quite a bit higher than the standard edition of the game. But I really don't think that Miniature Market was morally repugnant for doing that. But YMMV.

*edited for typos*
 
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SirRoke wrote:


The difference, and there is one, is that my local FLGS buys games from distributors for a set price and markets them to me at MSRP. Of course they sell them for more than they pay, but they don't overcharge above MSRP.

Speculators who buy into KS exclusives and then scalp them on Ebay are usually asking FAR above what would be the market retail price. That's the difference.

What keeps a local store from jacking up the cost? The market of hundreds of other stores also selling the same game, the company itself selling on their own website, and online game stores selling at discounts.

What keeps a scalper from jacking up costs on exclusives? Nothing because they are artificially rare and being scarce can demand a higher price.

We don't have the option of shopping around for better competitive prices like we do with retailers.

I'm not saying that the scalpers shouldn't do it or that they are breaking some moral code. I'm just pointing out that there is a difference in your comparison.


One other point - it may be a semantic point but "market retail price" for a discontinued item (and that is exactly what a KS Exclusive item is), is whatever the market will bear. Want an old copy of Monopoly from 2000 that isn't printed anymore? Well, the market might say the retail price is only $1. Want a copy of War of the Ring Deluxe Edition? Well, the market retail price of that game is likely in excess of $1200-$2000 now.

By definition, the retail market price of a KS Exclusive is whatever people are willing to pay.

KS Exclusive "scalpers" aren't even comparable to concert ticket scalpers, because the supply of concert tickets really IS limited. In contrast, literally everyone in the world can get KS Exclusives. They just have to pledge for them. But lots of people choose *not* to back KS campaigns.

One last example. I bet you dollars to donuts that the "KS Exclusive" NSFW decks of Exploding Kittens will go for less than the cost of pledging for them. There are going to be literally hundreds of thousands of copies floating around on Ebay once they are produced. Why? Because the market sets the prices, not scalpers.

 
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I missed the KS.

Later on I got the full kit for $175.

So a 75% increase for being late to the party.

Considering I didnt have my money on hold for a year and a half, plus the fact I could read reviews before buying, made it worth it.

Add on the fact that we really like the game since having it, just makes it more so.

All that said, had I not been able to obtain the KS sets, I would have never purchased the game.

What you have to keep in min is its not just the 4 adventure packs.
All the content from the KS box set are exclusive as well from what I understand.

The KS base set alone doubles the content.

It would be hard to be able to fully enjoy the game knowing theres stuff out there I dont have, or more so, cant have.

There are Descent expansions I dont have yet, I can enjoy the game because I know the expansions can be had still.

But as another comparison, the video game, Destiny.

We own it for the Xbox. And its an enjoyable game.
But everytime I load up the PVP or Strikes, I feel a bit of aggrevation because the Playstation owners have a full 25% more content for the same price.
Granted, in theory, at the end of the year we will be getting same content.
So, yeah, well get it eventually, but a year+ is a LONG time in the video game world.

Really it comes down to preceived value for the individual.

For me, with Fallen, without the extras, it wasnt worth it for me.
But even paying more than KS backers, it was.

That said, I understand they are even more expensive than what I paid, so I dont think Id be getting in on it at this point.

The only time that stick to your guns exclusives has worked out for the company (IMO) are the cases where they had more KS in the future.

Like Zombicide. Season two exploded when it was discovered that they would in fact NOT be offering up Season 1 exclusives.
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