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randian wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
randian wrote:

...sounds more like Wallace being unhappy with amount of payment he contracted for than Eagle trying screw Wallace.
Please do elaborate - with facts.
Unless we're shown the contract what Wallace says isn't a fact.
If I owned a business I doubt I'd publicly post contracts on a public forum to stop an Internet argument.

I also think that I'd refrain from commenting on any contractual disputes as it could be interpreted as libel and/or be an issue in the legal proceedings.

I'm not taking sides here, but I think it's pretty ridiculous for anyone on the Internet to expect a company to publicly disclose private business information, or to run the risk of publicly commenting about legal disputes. You may not get to be privy to both sides of the story for perfectly legitimate reasons.
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darthhugo wrote:
Let's not divert the argument.

FRED claims it has rights to reprint Brass, Martin indicates those rights were revoked per his request in late 2013.

Since FRED is going to be the infringing party here and is claiming rights, they need to prove it.
Martrin said he wanted to republish Brass with a different publisher. If Fred they are holding the rights, hes infringing.

The thing is: Did Martin sold the rights to Eagle like he (accoring to the Emails published on the website) did with AoS? In this case its a cautinary tale: Never sell of your rights.
Did he have a different kind of contract? Then its likely that Eagle does not have the right to do a deluxe version without consulting Wallace.

(As an offside: In German law its neither possible to completly sell of your rights - you can only grant them, but not give them away - and its also not allowed to publish Emails without consent. So yeah, this is weird.)
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That didn't stop FRED from posting all the private info in that Baghdad Bob webpage covering the Steam dispute. Seems like they like to hide in the convenient shadows of proof or absence of it.

In this case, they have a PR pickle, since they want to receive support for something that is now in question - if they don't reveal the facts beyond a meaningless statement (opinion piece), they won't have the gravitas to stand behind the campaign. Its the perfect situation that Frank Underwood would have been proud to call his own.

Thunkd wrote:
randian wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
randian wrote:

...sounds more like Wallace being unhappy with amount of payment he contracted for than Eagle trying screw Wallace.
Please do elaborate - with facts.
Unless we're shown the contract what Wallace says isn't a fact.
If I owned a business I doubt I'd publicly post contracts on a public forum to stop an Internet argument.

I also think that I'd refrain from commenting on any contractual disputes as it could be interpreted as libel and/or be an issue in the legal proceedings.

I'm not taking sides here, but I think it's pretty ridiculous for anyone on the Internet to expect a company to publicly disclose private business information, or to run the risk of publicly commenting about legal disputes. You may not get to be privy to both sides of the story for perfectly legitimate reasons.
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If FRED dropped the suit in 2009, they knew they lost, which means the overarching contract that Martin believes was null is in fact null - otherwise FRED would have continued to pursue it.

Taking Martin at his word, the pre-existing (prior to Steam case) contract between him and FRED contained a six months back-out clause, which he exercised in late 2013. Since it is now 2015, it appears that FRED has lost the rights to publish Brass.

What Martin wishes to do with his rights is his business and is not infringing, so not sure how you are construing him as being the infringer.

Like FRED, I can claim rights to anything I want, doesn't mean that I actually have them.



Peerchen wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
Let's not divert the argument.

FRED claims it has rights to reprint Brass, Martin indicates those rights were revoked per his request in late 2013.

Since FRED is going to be the infringing party here and is claiming rights, they need to prove it.
Martrin said he wanted to republish Brass with a different publisher. If Fred they are holding the rights, hes infringing.

The thing is: Did Martin sold the rights to Eagle like he (accoring to the Emails published on the website) did with AoS? In this case its a cautinary tale: Never sell of your rights.
Did he have a different kind of contract? Then its likely that Eagle does not have the right to do a deluxe version without consulting Wallace.

(As an offside: In German law its neither possible to completly sell of your rights - you can only grant them, but not give them away - and its also not allowed to publish Emails without consent. So yeah, this is weird.)
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framebrain wrote:
ohbalto wrote:
The whole mess with Brass and Age of Steam is why I refuse to buy anything from Eagle, Fred, and Funagain. People roll their eyes when I tell them this but I don't care; they are a stain on this hobby.
The Gallerist complicates this. I am a Vital Lacerda fan, and wish to back his game. Wish we could all get along and play nice.
If there's a Eagle / Fred game you want, I suggest waiting and trying to pick it up from someone via trade. I've got a copy of Brass with their name on it, but that's through a long-ago trade. The more money I can not give them, the better.
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Surely we're all familiar with the concept of "proof by repeated vigorous assertion"?

Me, I prefer "caveat emptor".

Make sure whoever is selling you something has good title in it before you part with your cash....
 
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I see this as Martin's appeal to the BG community, and I fully support his public response to what's happening in this case. Reply from Eagle-Gryphon is indeed bland. Martin's letter forced at least a reply that in their opinion, they have the rights. Of course, it would have been more convenient for E-G to keep this out of public. It's easier not to reply to personal emails

Looks like we need a "Fair Trade" label for boardgames:
https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/3adts6/queen_ga...

I've seen ideas and products stolen from creators from up-close in my life. It's ugly. And it's a lot harder for a designer to defend their rights compared to a publisher. Both in time and resources. Unless a person is a 'one-hit wonder' and is able to dedicate years of one's life to the case. I assume that we all want to see what M.Wallace will come up next boardgamewise, and not how he will manage a lawsuit for the next 3 years.

To me, the offender and the victim is quite clear here. Of course, there will always be opinions like 'she herself is to blame' (I hope you get the idea..).
If I was a lawyer, I would propose my pro bono assistance for the designer.
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gte910h wrote:
http://www.treefroggames.com apparently this kickstarter isn't legit, they don't have rights to make it
Without seeing any of the signed contracts, we have no idea who has the rights to make it. FRED/Eagle Griffin may be totally in the right here! But we can't tell based on what's been presented.

I'm grateful at least that Rick posted some more source documents.

-Jaime
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Thunkd wrote:
randian wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
randian wrote:

...sounds more like Wallace being unhappy with amount of payment he contracted for than Eagle trying screw Wallace.
Please do elaborate - with facts.
Unless we're shown the contract what Wallace says isn't a fact.
If I owned a business I doubt I'd publicly post contracts on a public forum to stop an Internet argument.

I also think that I'd refrain from commenting on any contractual disputes as it could be interpreted as libel and/or be an issue in the legal proceedings.

I'm not taking sides here, but I think it's pretty ridiculous for anyone on the Internet to expect a company to publicly disclose private business information, or to run the risk of publicly commenting about legal disputes. You may not get to be privy to both sides of the story for perfectly legitimate reasons.

It is, of course, a bad idea to hold your legal battles in a public internet forum...

But the issue is that, seemingly, neither side really wants to pay the $$$ for legal fees and are appealing to the court of the internet to see if some groundswell of support will appear, one way or another, and sway one or the other side to relent.

And so, for our entertainment and edification, let the documents be provided!
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Not that I was in the market for this particular title, but I think I'll be steering clear of this and other Eagle Kickstarters in the foreseeable future (that includes you, The Gallerist, sorry). As AndriusLT said above, I think I'd rather see M. Wallace spending his creative energies on developing new boardgames than on legal shenanigans defending his IP rights.

Paired with Queen, that's now two publishers who've disinclined me from jumping on board with their KS offerings. Maybe it's finally time for me to just abandon the Kickstarter game altogether, once and for all.

 
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The problems with the FRED website posted are that firstly the sequence of emails reads as incomplete - it looks like there are other emails from Wallace which they chose not to include for some reason, so it can't really be trusted as a complete record of the facts (presumably just those supporting their version of events). Secondly, there are a number of missing years of possible emails, including the vital ones from 2013, revoking their rights to Brass, which is rather pertinent in this case.

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Irrespective who is right, my take from this discussion is that money paid in advance for a Martin Wallace game is not safe whether the game is published by Treefrog or by Eagle. Until Martin Wallace and Eagle reach an agreement, I will pay for such a game only after it is in my hands or, at least, has been definitely shipped.
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gte910h wrote:
http://www.treefroggames.com apparently this kickstarter isn't legit, they don't have rights to make it
welcome to 10 hours ago! What do you think we've been talking about all day?
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Wow, first the Kingdom Builder/Donald X. fiasco, now this? When did so many board game publishers start going rogue?
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mpalframan wrote:
Wow, first the Kingdom Builder/Donald X. fiasco, now this? When did so many board game publishers start going rogue?
hmm, I remember a thing I heard about a game being stolen from a designer and being turned from one about the evils of capitalism into one about creating monopolies. If you created a monopoly better than everyone elses monopoly, then your monopoly won. I think it was called "The capitalist who could not be stopped".
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mpalframan wrote:
Wow, first the Kingdom Builder/Donald X. fiasco, now this? When did so many board game publishers start going rogue?
I think we need to consult with the experts on this, Stronghold Games.
Edit: This was a silly joke. No implied wrongdoing by Stronghold Games was intended!
 
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Normally public discussions like this are frowned on, yeah. But Kickstarter is a crowdsourced funding company as has been stated before. As such, it's the project creators duty to provide backers (investors) enough information for us to judge if it's a risky or worthwhile investment.

Of course, they don't have to. But if they don't you shouldn't back it. It may not even be because you dislike EG or think they are wrong. It could simply be "I'm not going to sink my money into something that's going to be tied up in court", a perfectly valid reasoning.

How many projects start (I'm thinking of the custom dice one I just lost a hundred bucks on) where after they start, the project creator says things like "oh - I failed to mention under risks and challenges that I'm incredibly ill and likely not able to finish a project due to my infirmity". If we'd known that up front we might not have backed!

Right now I trust MW more but I would be easily swayed by some info from the source, just like anybody making an investment.
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nbread wrote:
mpalframan wrote:
Wow, first the Kingdom Builder/Donald X. fiasco, now this? When did so many board game publishers start going rogue?
I think we need to consult with the experts on this, Stronghold Games.
Huh?
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TheRocketSurgeon wrote:
I think it was called "The capitalist who could not be stopped".
The Simpsons?
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hanibalicious wrote:
but what does this mean for up front?
At least here we have a chance to know before giving up money that there may be a dispute.
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Thunkd wrote:
randian wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
randian wrote:

...sounds more like Wallace being unhappy with amount of payment he contracted for than Eagle trying screw Wallace.
Please do elaborate - with facts.
Unless we're shown the contract what Wallace says isn't a fact.
If I owned a business I doubt I'd publicly post contracts on a public forum to stop an Internet argument.
I'm not saying he should. My point was that Wallace is not a more reliable source of facts than Eagle. He may be correct in his assertions, but to believe that just because he's the designer he's in the right contractually is erroneous.
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I have no comment on the MW-EG dispute, although I'm inclined to lean against E-G. But

Adverb wrote:
Maybe it's finally time for me to just abandon the Kickstarter game altogether, once and for all.
At least once I bought a game on KS, and the developer essentially said "That was great. Now I have the money to publish the real game, Name of Game: Awesome, which unlike the original Name of Game will have expansions and add-ons and long-term support. So thank you all for purchasing Name of Game!"

And at least one company used KS as their lack-of-QA excuse for poor quality components which (again) were fixed in the "real" version.

Finally, you have companies which are simply using KS to get around the rules against credit-card preorders.

It's not entirely KS's fault, but I'm done with it. I just don't have the free cash to be an early-adopter or an investor or a speculator. I will play a game, and if I like it enough, then I will try to buy it. If I can't, then I will just have to get over my collector's bug.
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Thunkd wrote:
randian wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
randian wrote:

...sounds more like Wallace being unhappy with amount of payment he contracted for than Eagle trying screw Wallace.
Please do elaborate - with facts.
Unless we're shown the contract what Wallace says isn't a fact.
If I owned a business I doubt I'd publicly post contracts on a public forum to stop an Internet argument.

I also think that I'd refrain from commenting on any contractual disputes as it could be interpreted as libel and/or be an issue in the legal proceedings.

I'm not taking sides here, but I think it's pretty ridiculous for anyone on the Internet to expect a company to publicly disclose private business information, or to run the risk of publicly commenting about legal disputes. You may not get to be privy to both sides of the story for perfectly legitimate reasons.
The Age of Crowdfunding is upon us!

We probably have the right to know relevant contractual details when one of the parties is asking us for money. Rick seemed pretty upset by this fact when the Through the Ages campaign was happening, but perhaps he's come around.


What I want to know is, where is BGG News in all of this? This and Queen are huge stories but all we get from BGG News is crickets. Why?
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lfisher wrote:
nbread wrote:
mpalframan wrote:
Wow, first the Kingdom Builder/Donald X. fiasco, now this? When did so many board game publishers start going rogue?
I think we need to consult with the experts on this, Stronghold Games.
Huh?
The prior post mentioned "going rogue." The link went to Rogue Agent, a game published by Stronghold. It was supposed to be a subtle joke but obviously failed miserably.
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JB4GDI wrote:
gte910h wrote:
http://www.treefroggames.com apparently this kickstarter isn't legit, they don't have rights to make it
Without seeing any of the signed contracts, we have no idea who has the rights to make it. FRED/Eagle Griffin may be totally in the right here! But we can't tell based on what's been presented.

I'm grateful at least that Rick posted some more source documents.

-Jaime
Source documents? Emails that could be only hand selected for what we know, and a legal claim...with no followup to the claim in SIX YEARS! I could file a claim against the government in court that says that the moon landing was fake and that secret agents are spying on me eating breakfast every morning. Only if a court finds a verdict in your favor is it proof of anything... I can't just submit my claim that the moon landings are fake as proof that the moon landings didn't occur! 6 years with no court followup is completely in line with what Martin has said. In effect, FRED has supported Martin's claim that the lawsuit had NO MERIT!

FRED isn't exactly providing evidence in support of themselves like they think they are...
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