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Subject: G.E.V. Second Move Ram? rss

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Peter Bakija
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So in the Pocket Edition rules, there is nothing prohibiting G.E.V.s from ramming an Ogre on their second move (i.e. move up to 4, fire, move up to 3 and ram the Ogre to do an extra point of tread damage at the cost of the G.E.V.).

I was reading through the Designer's Edition PDF rulebook, and saw a rule that said that G.E.V.s can't ram on their second move, *if* they fired on that turn. Should this be considered a generic rule (and as such, be retroactively grafted into my Pocket Edition games), or is it specific to Designers Edition where it is assumed you are using all the advanced rules (overruns and terrain bonuses/penalties/etc.) and presumably balanced into the full rules set?
 
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Stephen Rochelle
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I would graft the ODE rule in. It is absolutely not part of the advanced/overrun rules, as Rule 6 (Ramming) and Rule 8 (Overrun) are mutually exclusive.
 
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Peter Bakija
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lomn wrote:
I would graft the ODE rule in. It is absolutely not part of the advanced/overrun rules, as Rule 6 (Ramming) and Rule 8 (Overrun) are mutually exclusive.


Oh, heh--I wasn't implying that they were part of the same rule. Just possibly that the "G.E.V.s can't ram on their second move if they shot that turn" rule was considered balanced in the context of the full (Ogre/G.E.V./Shockwave/Designers Edition/whatever) rule set, and specifically left out of the Pocket Edition (as it would have been really easy to put that one sentence into the book).
 
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David Rock

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bakija wrote:
So in the Pocket Edition rules, there is nothing prohibiting G.E.V.s from ramming an Ogre on their second move (i.e. move up to 4, fire, move up to 3 and ram the Ogre to do an extra point of tread damage at the cost of the G.E.V.).

I was reading through the Designer's Edition PDF rulebook, and saw a rule that said that G.E.V.s can't ram on their second move, *if* they fired on that turn. Should this be considered a generic rule (and as such, be retroactively grafted into my Pocket Edition games), or is it specific to Designers Edition where it is assumed you are using all the advanced rules (overruns and terrain bonuses/penalties/etc.) and presumably balanced into the full rules set?


It depends a bit on what you mean by "Pocket Edition Rules." If you specifically mean "The New Ogre Pocket Edition," then that restriction should be left out because it's simplified ramming as intended to be used for only "basic Ogre games." Ogre Pocket Edition is meant to be a reasonably faithful reproduction of the Original Game with some rules cleanup. Ramming on your 2nd movement is OK in this context.

If when you say "Pocket Edition" you mean "My old copy of G.E.V. from 1978," the easiest way to look at it is to think of ODE rules as the "de facto ruleset" that contains all errata/updates/whatever over the last 35 years for the combined Ogre/G.E.V./Shockwave, et al. In this context, apply the ODE rules to your 1/2" chits and think of it as a travel version of ODE.
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Peter Bakija
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granitepenguin wrote:
It depends a bit on what you mean by "Pocket Edition Rules." If you specifically mean "The New Ogre Pocket Edition," then that restriction should be left out because it's simplified ramming as intended to be used for only "basic Ogre games." Ogre Pocket Edition is meant to be a reasonably faithful reproduction of the Original Game with some rules cleanup. Ramming on your 2nd movement is OK in this context.


This one.

This is what I was assuming.
 
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David Rock

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bakija wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:
It depends a bit on what you mean by "Pocket Edition Rules." If you specifically mean "The New Ogre Pocket Edition," then that restriction should be left out because it's simplified ramming as intended to be used for only "basic Ogre games." Ogre Pocket Edition is meant to be a reasonably faithful reproduction of the Original Game with some rules cleanup. Ramming on your 2nd movement is OK in this context.


This one.

This is what I was assuming.


Then ramming on your second movement phase, regardless of firing, is fine. The Pocket Edition rules are just a cleanup of the original Ogre rules; ramming isn't even in its own section like it is in ODE, or handled the same way at all. Ramming in Pocket Edition is very specific to Armor ramming the Ogre, or the Ogre ramming Armor. Pocket Edition is a standalone game specifically meant to be as close to the original as possible (without the obvious breakages in the original).

Having said that, there's absolutely nothing wrong with using the ODE rules on the Pocket Ed map if you want to. It just depends on what type of experience you want to have: "I feel like it's 1977" or "my doctor said I can't carry ODE anymore."
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Peter Bakija
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granitepenguin wrote:
Having said that, there's absolutely nothing wrong with using the ODE rules on the Pocket Ed map if you want to. It just depends on what type of experience you want to have: "I feel like it's 1977" or "my doctor said I can't carry ODE anymore."


Yeah, like, when it comes down to it, mostly I'm interested (in this instance) in the evolution of the rules.

Like, I played original pocket box Ogre and G.E.V. in the 80's, and don't remember there being a rule against G.E.V.s ramming on the second move after firing (although it certainly might have existed in G.E.V. and I just never noticed it). I don't know when the Designer's Edition rules were published relative to the new Pocket Edition, and it is possible that the new Pocket Edition was published before the Designer's Edition, and the G.E.V. ram limits were invented after the republishing of the new Pocket Edition rules; it is also possible that the G.E.V. ram limits were introduced in any number of the "newer" older rules (i.e. maybe in Shockwave or the 90's Ogre/G.E.V. rules reprints, or the mini rules, or whatever) and specifically left out of the new Pocket Edition to fully reflect the original Pocked Edition rules. Or whatever.

I'm entertained by rules evolution in games. Like, when I play Pocket Edition Ogre, my G.E.V.s are gonna ram after firing on their second move if it helps, but I'm still interested in rules evolution and designer intent in an academic sense :-)
 
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David Rock

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bakija wrote:

Yeah, like, when it comes down to it, mostly I'm interested (in this instance) in the evolution of the rules.


Well, let's see if I can highlight the specifics of the evolution for you.

Quote:
Like, I played original pocket box Ogre and G.E.V. in the 80's, and don't remember there being a rule against G.E.V.s ramming on the second move after firing (although it certainly might have existed in G.E.V. and I just never noticed it).


G.E.V. had NO rules about ramming units, from the 1st Ed, all the way up through the year 2000 edition Ogre/G.E.V. combo release. The only thing stated about ramming says three things:
1. Don't use ramming rules from Ogre, use the Overrun rules
2. Ramming the train is the only allowed type of ram
3. During and Overrun, Ogres have an option to ram

In other words, ramming is an Ogre-specific event.

Quote:
I don't know when the Designer's Edition rules were published relative to the new Pocket Edition, and it is possible that the new Pocket Edition was published before the Designer's Edition, and the G.E.V. ram limits were invented after the republishing of the new Pocket Edition rules;

They were developed and published at the same time. In fact, the ODE rules came first from a development perspective with a lot of conversation in the SJG forums.

Quote:
it is also possible that the G.E.V. ram limits were introduced in any number of the "newer" older rules (i.e. maybe in Shockwave or the 90's Ogre/G.E.V. rules reprints, or the mini rules, or whatever) and specifically left out of the new Pocket Edition to fully reflect the original Pocked Edition rules. Or whatever.

As stated above, ram limits were never introduced in earlier hex map incarnations because there were NO ram rules in G.E.V. to limit in the first place. Where the original restriction _did_ get added was in Ogre Miniatures.

Basically, the rules for Ogre and G.E.V. were mostly untouched through the majority of their existence. What happened is with ODE, there was a major rewrite to combine the rules of Ogre, G.E.V., Minatures, et al. into a single, cohesive set of rules for the entire Ogre "system." Every other printing kept Ogre and G.E.V. distinctly separate. All the changes about ramming came for ODE as a result of that combining, fiddling, and adjusting of all the rules. There are quite a few things, actually, that were introduced during the development of the ODE rules.

So, from an evolutionary standpoint, the Pocket Ed and ODE are more cousins than siblings. There were many deliberate changes/additions/etc made in ODE as an attempt to reconcile everything, while Pocket Ed was specifically designed as a minor cleanup of the original Ogre rules as a standalone throwback to the 1977 game.
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Peter Bakija
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granitepenguin wrote:
So, from an evolutionary standpoint, the Pocket Ed and ODE are more cousins than siblings. There were many deliberate changes/additions/etc made in ODE as an attempt to reconcile everything, while Pocket Ed was specifically designed as a minor cleanup of the original Ogre rules as a standalone throwback to the 1977 game.


Ok, that makes much more sense.

So in G.E.V. rules, the ramming rules from Ogre were replaced by the overrun rules from G.E.V., and then in the ODE rules, everything was kind of mushed together and cleaned up, allowing ramming (apparently) but also adding the "no ram on second move for G.E.V.s" limitation. Got it.

So in plain, old, pocket edition Ogre, those suicide G.E.V.s are all sorts of cool.
 
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